Bad Uthwen vote - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 11-06-2002, 08:17 PM

We have four options that I know of with regard to the replacement of the name Bad Uthwen.

1. Leave it as it is. This has the advantage of involving the least change (actually, no change) to Tolkien's actual words. The disadvantage is that Bad Uthwen may not be valid Sindarin.

2. Add a circumflex to the "a". This is a very minor change that updates Bad to the form found in the Etymologies. It is virtually certain that this word in the Etymologies supercedes the word found in BoLT. The main disadvantage is that the Uthwen situation has not been improved. I'm not sure if there is any direct evidence that Uthwen would have been dropped, though. There is also some possibility that circumflexed Bad becomes invalid between Noldorin and Sindarin.

3. Use a Quenya form. This has the advantage of not being outdated Gnomish or Noldorin. It has the disadvantage of being fairly arbitrary - there are innumerable possible Quenya names that have roughly the same meaning as Bad Uthwen, but none is particularly valid. Also, we do not have convincing evidence that places in Gondolin were given Quenya names.

4. Drop it. This avoids the possibility of poor Elvish altogether. The only disadvantage is that we lose a bit of detail.

I am strongly opposed to option 3. I also think that option 2 is in every way superior to option 1. Therefore I am for either 2 or 4. I withold my final vote until I've given it a bit more thought.

HerenIstarion · 11-07-2002, 04:47 AM

what is the deadline of submitting votes? For I'm not sure and need more time

Aiwendil · 11-07-2002, 08:47 AM

No official deadline has been set. I think in general we've been going with a 3 week time limit for these votes, so, provisionally, I'll say 3 weeks. In my opinion, though, it's far more important that we count everyone's vote than that we get it done quickly. So if anyone needs an extension, just so say.

Maédhros · 11-07-2002, 10:19 AM

Quote:

4. Drop it. This avoids the possibility of poor Elvish altogether. The only disadvantage is that we lose a bit of detail.

In this case, would the name used be The Way of Escape?

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

**lindil** · 11-07-2002, 11:01 AM

I am also curious about using 'the Way of Escape'. An english substitution for wherever the elvish phrase occurs.

I confess I have not done my homework to see how this fits with the text but it seems plausible.

DR

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Aiwendil · 11-07-2002, 03:13 PM

Quote:

In this case, would the name used be The Way of Escape?

Yes, sorry I hadn't made that clear. I'm fairly certain that "The Way of Escape" can be used without a problem at all occurrences. Of course, if anyone has any other suggestions, those are welcome.

**lindil** · 11-09-2002, 02:46 AM

I am for 4/ English Way of Escape.

Eruhen · 11-11-2002, 10:54 AM

I'm going to finally state my opinion and go with (drumroll please)........................................... ............... Door number 4!

It solves the problem by just getting rid of all the "Noldorin" Elvish and gives us an alternative that we are absolutely certain of, instead of going with Sindarin or Quenya. Which, if you know me, is strange, seeing as I seem to have a love affair with Quenya.

Anyway, I'm going with option 4.
The tally thus far is:
#1:0
#2:0
#3:0
#4:2

Tirinvo · 11-15-2002, 07:22 AM

Sorry for the delay, but the circimflex, if everyone did not already know, is my choice

#1-0
#2-1
#3-0
#4-2

Maédhros · 11-17-2002, 01:14 AM

I would go with # 4.

Eruhen · 11-18-2002, 07:24 AM

So now it's:
#1: 0
#2: 1
#3: 0
#4: 3

And all you who haven't voted have 10 days left. Get on the ball if you want a part in this!

**lindil** · 11-18-2002, 08:26 AM

I guess it is not as glamorous a vote as Legolas! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

antoine2 · 11-18-2002, 01:56 PM

Hello,

I vote for the 4/
drop and remplace by way to escape.

Eruhen · 11-19-2002, 07:33 AM

btw, Aiwendil. What are you choosing? I can't make it out from your post. Could we have a straight answer please, Mr. Mod?

Also, it's one vote for #2 and four votes for #4.

Aiwendil · 11-19-2002, 03:52 PM

I hadn't made my vote explicit because I hadn't yet decided. I have pondered the matter, though, and my decision is made: 4.

**lindil** · 11-19-2002, 05:36 PM

#1: 0
#2: 1
#3: 0
#4: 5

Eruhen feel free to cross reference the member list in the FAQ's and apply the temporal thumbscrews to the rest of the members... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Just kidding.

I think some folks do not wish to weigh in on the more obscure language points.

Alkanoonion · 11-19-2002, 08:49 PM

To avoid the thumbscrews my vote is for #4
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

HerenIstarion · 11-20-2002, 06:33 AM

just to taste it on one's tooth:

1) Let us fare to Bad Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further

2) Let us fare to Bâd Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further

3) Let us fare to Uswevande (Uswetie, Uswelonde, Uswasrado?) the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further

4) Let us fare to the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further

well, I think I will vote for #2

so it is

1-0
2-2
3-0
<font color="FF0013">4-6

#4 in the lead currently

Eruhen · 11-20-2002, 10:44 AM

Only Mithadan, Tar Elenion, and maybe Mr. Underhill (I don't know how often he pops in here) have yet to vote. So this is pretty close to being done and the choice is pretty much decided, but we should wait until either everyone has put in their two cents worth or until the deadline comes. But, it's looking like we're going to be going with "Way of Escape". And, no, I'm not trying to swing anyone's vote!

edit: btw, what is next up on the list after this? I'm not to sure, but I think that section one should be pretty close to being done. Am I right?

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Eruhen ]

**lindil** · 11-20-2002, 01:02 PM

First off - even if all remaining members voted for #2, #4 would still have more votes. So I think we can consider the Way of Escape decided, although any who still wish to cast their vote are of course encouraged to do so.

I do believe the first sections decisions and changes are all now complete. The changes that have not been put into place can be revised.

Antoine [1-3] and Maedhros have done this in the past and may or may not wish to continue with it.

What is next?

I have created a list in the 'general comments/ group discussion' thread in this forum.

antoine2 · 11-21-2002, 06:16 AM

hello,

i will do that for monday, in a pdf version that we can put on public forum.

see you

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-21-2002, 11:37 AM

For what it's worth, I would have thrown in with "Way of Escape" too, though I'm more an occasionally haunting spirit than a project member.

**lindil** · 11-21-2002, 01:17 PM

Great to see you and your vote mr. underhill. I am glad you posted before Eruhen could get at you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] smart move!

Antoine, by all means make the corrections, but hold off posting in the public forum till the group discuss it.

***Mithadan*** · 11-27-2002, 12:30 AM

As I am no linguist, I vote Way of Escape.

**lindil** · 11-27-2002, 07:07 AM

ahhh 2 skeletons out of the closet!

I think w/ the last 2 votes continuing the trend we can call this vote closed.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

11-07-2002, 11:01 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I am also curious about using 'the Way of Escape'. An english substitution for wherever the elvish phrase occurs. I confess I have not done my homework to see how this fits with the text but it seems plausible. DR [ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-09-2002, 02:46 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I am for 4/ English Way of Escape. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-11-2002, 10:54 AM	#8
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	I'm going to finally state my opinion and go with (drumroll please)........................................... ............... Door number 4! It solves the problem by just getting rid of all the "Noldorin" Elvish and gives us an alternative that we are absolutely certain of, instead of going with Sindarin or Quenya. Which, if you know me, is strange, seeing as I seem to have a love affair with Quenya. Anyway, I'm going with option 4. The tally thus far is: #1:0 #2:0 #3:0 #4:2 __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

11-15-2002, 07:22 AM	#9
Tirinvo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eregion Posts: 36	Sorry for the delay, but the circimflex, if everyone did not already know, is my choice #1-0 #2-1 #3-0 #4-2 __________________ Do you live the Truth, or are you a mere speaker? For those whom speak life without life, from complacency, cannot be heard... Anquildëa alcareryassë

11-17-2002, 01:14 AM	#10
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	I would go with # 4. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

11-06-2002, 08:17 PM	#1
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Bad Uthwen vote We have four options that I know of with regard to the replacement of the name Bad Uthwen. 1. Leave it as it is. This has the advantage of involving the least change (actually, no change) to Tolkien's actual words. The disadvantage is that Bad Uthwen may not be valid Sindarin. 2. Add a circumflex to the "a". This is a very minor change that updates Bad to the form found in the Etymologies. It is virtually certain that this word in the Etymologies supercedes the word found in BoLT. The main disadvantage is that the Uthwen situation has not been improved. I'm not sure if there is any direct evidence that Uthwen would have been dropped, though. There is also some possibility that circumflexed Bad becomes invalid between Noldorin and Sindarin. 3. Use a Quenya form. This has the advantage of not being outdated Gnomish or Noldorin. It has the disadvantage of being fairly arbitrary - there are innumerable possible Quenya names that have roughly the same meaning as Bad Uthwen, but none is particularly valid. Also, we do not have convincing evidence that places in Gondolin were given Quenya names. 4. Drop it. This avoids the possibility of poor Elvish altogether. The only disadvantage is that we lose a bit of detail. I am strongly opposed to option 3. I also think that option 2 is in every way superior to option 1. Therefore I am for either 2 or 4. I withold my final vote until I've given it a bit more thought.

11-07-2002, 04:47 AM	#2
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	what is the deadline of submitting votes? For I'm not sure and need more time __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

11-07-2002, 08:47 AM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	No official deadline has been set. I think in general we've been going with a 3 week time limit for these votes, so, provisionally, I'll say 3 weeks. In my opinion, though, it's far more important that we count everyone's vote than that we get it done quickly. So if anyone needs an extension, just so say.

11-18-2002, 07:24 AM	#11
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	So now it's: #1: 0 #2: 1 #3: 0 #4: 3 And all you who haven't voted have 10 days left. Get on the ball if you want a part in this! __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

11-18-2002, 08:26 AM	#12
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I guess it is not as glamorous a vote as Legolas! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-18-2002, 01:56 PM	#13
antoine2 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 41	Hello, I vote for the 4/ drop and remplace by way to escape.

11-19-2002, 07:33 AM	#14
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	btw, Aiwendil. What are you choosing? I can't make it out from your post. Could we have a straight answer please, Mr. Mod? Also, it's one vote for #2 and four votes for #4. __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

11-19-2002, 03:52 PM	#15
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I hadn't made my vote explicit because I hadn't yet decided. I have pondered the matter, though, and my decision is made: 4.

11-19-2002, 05:36 PM	#16
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	#1: 0 #2: 1 #3: 0 #4: 5 Eruhen feel free to cross reference the member list in the FAQ's and apply the temporal thumbscrews to the rest of the members... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Just kidding. I think some folks do not wish to weigh in on the more obscure language points. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-19-2002, 08:49 PM	#17
Alkanoonion Spirit in Eriador Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Adelaide Posts: 392	To avoid the thumbscrews my vote is for #4 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.

11-20-2002, 06:33 AM	#18
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	just to taste it on one's tooth: 1) Let us fare to Bad Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further 2) Let us fare to Bâd Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further 3) Let us fare to Uswevande (Uswetie, Uswelonde, Uswasrado?) the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further 4) Let us fare to the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further well, I think I will vote for #2 so it is 1-0 2-2 3-0 <font color="FF0013">4-6 #4 in the lead currently __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

11-20-2002, 10:44 AM	#19
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Only Mithadan, Tar Elenion, and maybe Mr. Underhill (I don't know how often he pops in here) have yet to vote. So this is pretty close to being done and the choice is pretty much decided, but we should wait until either everyone has put in their two cents worth or until the deadline comes. But, it's looking like we're going to be going with "Way of Escape". And, no, I'm not trying to swing anyone's vote! edit: btw, what is next up on the list after this? I'm not to sure, but I think that section one should be pretty close to being done. Am I right? [ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Eruhen ] __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

11-20-2002, 01:02 PM	#20
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	First off - even if all remaining members voted for #2, #4 would still have more votes. So I think we can consider the Way of Escape decided, although any who still wish to cast their vote are of course encouraged to do so. I do believe the first sections decisions and changes are all now complete. The changes that have not been put into place can be revised. Antoine [1-3] and Maedhros have done this in the past and may or may not wish to continue with it. What is next? I have created a list in the 'general comments/ group discussion' thread in this forum. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-21-2002, 06:16 AM	#21
antoine2 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 41	hello, i will do that for monday, in a pdf version that we can put on public forum. see you

11-21-2002, 11:37 AM	#22
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	For what it's worth, I would have thrown in with "Way of Escape" too, though I'm more an occasionally haunting spirit than a project member.

11-21-2002, 01:17 PM	#23
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Great to see you and your vote mr. underhill. I am glad you posted before Eruhen could get at you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] smart move! Antoine, by all means make the corrections, but hold off posting in the public forum till the group discuss it. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-27-2002, 12:30 AM	#24
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,373	As I am no linguist, I vote Way of Escape. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

11-27-2002, 07:07 AM	#25
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	ahhh 2 skeletons out of the closet! I think w/ the last 2 votes continuing the trend we can call this vote closed. [ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.