Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Telchar · 05-04-2001, 05:28 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 108</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
eneb and are discussing whether or not Beleriand was a part of Middle Earth!

eneb says no, but I allways thought that Beleriand before its destruction was part of Middle Earth like say Eriador or Rhovanion??

Can anybody comment please?

</p>

***Mithadan*** · 05-04-2001, 05:46 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 848</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

Beleriand was part of Middle Earth. On the LoTR maps, Beleriand would have extended north and west from where Lindon appears if Beleriand had not been destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

The X Phial · 05-04-2001, 05:48 AM

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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I would say that Beleriand was in Middle Earth before it was destroyed. In my opinion Middle Earth refers to the continent at large and the specific form of it at any one time is not as relevent. After all, if a large earthquake were to take out San Francisco, or even the whole west coast, the continent would remain North America. (Yes, even if mountains sprung up and whole new geological features appeared).

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>

Telchar · 05-04-2001, 06:09 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 109</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I agree! I actually considered all landmass besides Aman to be included in Middle Earth. Like in Nordic Mythology, where we have "Midgård" the land of Men and Asgård the land of the Gods and Udgård which was the home of "Jätter" or evil giants if you like - the latter have no resemblence to anything in Tolkiens works, but Tolkien was very much inspired by Nordic Mythology, and the name and conception of Middle Earth - I think - was inspired by "Midgård".

Cheers Telchar

</p>

Voronwe · 05-04-2001, 10:20 AM

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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

The silmarillion seems crystal clear on this. Beleriand was part of Middle earth. For example:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And since the sea was there narrow, steering east and somewhat south he passed over without loss, and first of all the Noldor set foot once more upon the shores of Middle-earth; and the landing of Fëanor was at the mouth of the firth which was called Drengist and ran into Dor-lómin.<hr></blockquote>

Middle earth was, it seems, a general term for all the land other than Aman.

-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

Amandil · 05-05-2001, 05:08 PM

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Posts: 43</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I always considered Beleriand the northwestern-most part of ME. And when it sank, then that distinction moved inland a bit, further east.

</p>

Earendilyon · 05-07-2001, 12:25 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I agree: Beleriand was part and parcel of ME.

This triggers another question, though: ME lay in between Valinor in the West and ..... in the East! What has to be filled in?

</p>

the Lorien wanderer · 05-08-2001, 12:33 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 348</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Also wondered....

even I've been wondering about that. Maybe I didn't pay too much attention to the silm during the last reading but what does lie in the east?

</p>

***Sharkû*** · 05-08-2001, 10:47 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
Posts: 883</TD><TD><img src=http://www.tolkiens-legacy.de/draugen.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Also wondered....

I have incidentally thought of that, too, just lately. If I remember correctly, the Professor explained it somewhere...

Letter #183, to W.H. Auden:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumené, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell).<hr></blockquote>

Letter #211 picks exactly this thought up again:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> [...] middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South.<hr></blockquote>

'I heed no call of clamant bell that rings / Iron-tongued in the towers of earthly kings. / Here on the stones and trees there lies a spell / Of unforgotten loss, of memory more blest / Than mortal wealth...'</p>

enep · 05-09-2001, 02:35 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun
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wel...

It looks like I'm beaten. <img src=wink.gif ALT="

">

My point was that Beleleriand could be compared, for example, to modern day Europe - it is on the same landmass as Asia, and yet is considered a different continent, divided at the Ural Mountains (sp?) But it seems that has proven rather invalid, so I'll stop there <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

</p>

Zoe · 05-09-2001, 04:07 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 358</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: wel...

actually, e, I think the division between "Europe" and "Asia" is more political and historic, than geographic.

(But, eneb??)

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

enep · 05-10-2001, 12:08 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun
Posts: 623</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
hmm

You don't have to rub it in too much, Z <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

hehe, I'll let it pass...but beware to all those (others) who get my name wrong! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="

">

</p>

05-04-2001, 05:48 AM	#3
The X Phial Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Out there with the truth. Come find me. Posts: 317	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 152</TD><TD><img src=http://www.jamestbaker.com/cec/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? I would say that Beleriand was in Middle Earth before it was destroyed. In my opinion Middle Earth refers to the continent at large and the specific form of it at any one time is not as relevent. After all, if a large earthquake were to take out San Francisco, or even the whole west coast, the continent would remain North America. (Yes, even if mountains sprung up and whole new geological features appeared). --The X Phial-- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p> __________________ But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born.

05-04-2001, 06:09 AM	#4
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 109</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? I agree! I actually considered all landmass besides Aman to be included in Middle Earth. Like in Nordic Mythology, where we have "Midgård" the land of Men and Asgård the land of the Gods and Udgård which was the home of "Jätter" or evil giants if you like - the latter have no resemblence to anything in Tolkiens works, but Tolkien was very much inspired by Nordic Mythology, and the name and conception of Middle Earth - I think - was inspired by "Midgård". Cheers Telchar </p> __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

05-04-2001, 10:20 AM	#5
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 218</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? The silmarillion seems crystal clear on this. Beleriand was part of Middle earth. For example: <blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> And since the sea was there narrow, steering east and somewhat south he passed over without loss, and first of all the Noldor set foot once more upon the shores of Middle-earth; and the landing of Fëanor was at the mouth of the firth which was called Drengist and ran into Dor-lómin.<hr></blockquote> Middle earth was, it seems, a general term for all the land other than Aman. -Voronwë <font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death He sped from Westerland.</p> __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

05-07-2001, 12:25 AM	#7
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? I agree: Beleriand was part and parcel of ME. This triggers another question, though: ME lay in between Valinor in the West and ..... in the East! What has to be filled in? </p> __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

05-09-2001, 02:35 AM	#10
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun Posts: 622</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> wel... It looks like I'm beaten. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> My point was that Beleleriand could be compared, for example, to modern day Europe - it is on the same landmass as Asia, and yet is considered a different continent, divided at the Ural Mountains (sp?) But it seems that has proven rather invalid, so I'll stop there <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> </p> __________________ - enep

05-04-2001, 05:28 AM	#1
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 108</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> eneb and are discussing whether or not Beleriand was a part of Middle Earth! eneb says no, but I allways thought that Beleriand before its destruction was part of Middle Earth like say Eriador or Rhovanion?? Can anybody comment please? </p> __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

05-04-2001, 05:46 AM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,374	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 848</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? Beleriand was part of Middle Earth. On the LoTR maps, Beleriand would have extended north and west from where Lindon appears if Beleriand had not been destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

05-05-2001, 05:08 PM	#6
Amandil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bristow, Virginia Posts: 99	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 43</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth??? I always considered Beleriand the northwestern-most part of ME. And when it sank, then that distinction moved inland a bit, further east. </p>

05-08-2001, 12:33 AM	#8
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 348</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Also wondered.... even I've been wondering about that. Maybe I didn't pay too much attention to the silm during the last reading but what does lie in the east? </p>

05-08-2001, 10:47 AM	#9
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul Posts: 883</TD><TD><img src=http://www.tolkiens-legacy.de/draugen.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Also wondered.... I have incidentally thought of that, too, just lately. If I remember correctly, the Professor explained it somewhere... Letter #183, to W.H. Auden: <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumené, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell).<hr></blockquote> Letter #211 picks exactly this thought up again: <blockquote>Quote:*<hr> [...] middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South.<hr></blockquote> 'I heed no call of clamant bell that rings / Iron-tongued in the towers of earthly kings. / Here on the stones and trees there lies a spell / Of unforgotten loss, of memory more blest / Than mortal wealth...'</p>

05-09-2001, 04:07 AM	#11
Zoe Wight Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 223	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 358</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: wel... actually, e, I think the division between "Europe" and "Asia" is more political and historic, than geographic. (But, eneb??) "This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me. (Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

05-10-2001, 12:08 AM	#12
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun Posts: 623</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> hmm You don't have to rub it in too much, Z <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> hehe, I'll let it pass...but beware to all those (others) who get my name wrong! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> </p> __________________ - enep