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01-17-2003, 11:34 PM | #1 |
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Balin, Moria and the King Under the Mountain
I have been wondering for a while whether Balin was all or partially motivated to retake Moria [and become it's Lord] because of a feeling of having been snubbed to be King Under the Mountain, he was after all, a direct descendant of the Line of Durin as was Dain, and after all already had his own lordship in the Iron Hills.
Perhaps he felt that as Thorin's companion since youth and most particularly as sharer in the adventure of restoring the House of Durin to Erebor he was the natural choice. So by becoming Lord of Moria, would Balin have thus 'one-upped' Dain? And been the real heir of Durin? Ruling in Durin's own anscestral mansion.
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01-17-2003, 11:48 PM | #2 |
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I don't suppose Balin set out to "one-up" Dain as such, but rather to even the field a bit. If any real competition existed between the two, I would suppose it was a completely cordial one.
Besides, if thirteen dwarves and a hobbit could reclaim Erebor from a Dragon, surely he, a direct descendant of Durin, could lead a colony back into Moria. Dain certainly had no claim to the title Lord of Moria. Alas, if only he knew the truth behind Durin's Bane... [ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Greyhame ]
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01-17-2003, 11:58 PM | #3 |
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I believe it said in the Council of Elrond that Dain was reluctant to give Balin leave. Surely he must have told Balin of his experience with seeing Durin's bane at the battle of Azanulbizar, if not right after the battle then surely when balin forst approached him about leading away some of the people of the Lonely Mountain.
Also, in the appendices, i noticed that Dain is called Thorin's 'rightful heir' presumably because he comes from a king of Durin's folk closer [ by 2 generations I think] than Balin. I do not think that makes it a given though that he would become King Under the Mountain, although he would naturally have been the King of Durin's folk, just as Thorin would have been [ had he himself lived long enough to be crowned as lord of one of the traditional [although not original] homes of the Dwarves.
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01-18-2003, 02:45 AM | #4 |
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If Balin had succeeded and became longstanding Lord of Moria, who would have been classed as the 'King' of Durin's folk?
If you think Dain, would he have claimed lordship over MOria and come to dwell there?
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01-18-2003, 05:27 AM | #5 |
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Blood is thicker than water. Dwarf blood, and a dwarf in general, is thicker than that of most others. I don't see either Balin or Dáin Ironfoot capable of the greed or ambition you seem to credit them with, O Seeker. Kin-strife is more of a human thing.
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01-18-2003, 09:45 AM | #6 | ||
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Dain was and would have remained King of Durin's Folk even had Balin succeeded. He was the one with the better bloodline. It was impossible for Balin to upstage Dain in this way. So, Dain actually could have chosen to return to the Iron Hills and left Balin as King Under the Mountain and Dain would still have been King of Durin's Folk. However, since the Iron Hills were rather poor Dain went where the real money was.
Where you ruled did not matter that much. It was whose son you were. Quote:
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The position of King of Durin's Folk probably equates well with the High King of the Noldor during the First Age. The king is the leader of all the Longbeards, but this rule tends to be rather nominal in realms other than where the king personally is. Tolkien seems to have had a real thing for this type of political system. So, I think that Gloin gave an accurate representation of the motives of Balin in going to Moria. He was trying to give his people, the Longbeards, a wider place in the world and access to more resources. Dain was reluctant to let them go, not because he was worried about being upstaged, but because he was worried about Durin's Bane killing the lot of them.
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01-18-2003, 10:55 AM | #7 |
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I think that Balin's humility prevented him from contesting the kingshhip. More, likely he wished to see the wonders of Moria restored.
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01-18-2003, 11:54 AM | #8 |
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"Dain would have had a degree of lordship over Moria since he was still the over-king. No, its unlikely that he would go there himself to take over. He had other things to be doing."
Dain certainly did not have other things when it came ot the Lonely Mountain! Who is to say he would not have wished to become Lord of Moria also. Thorin was technically King of Durin's folk, probably along with Thrain the first to have to dig coal to survive. Why did not he take up abode in the Iron Hills as would be his right as king? Dain was certainly quick to give the Iron Hills up. I am perhaps being to suspicious of Dwarven nature, especially when we are given no specifics of Dwarven politics [ other than all of the houses participating in grudge wars].
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01-18-2003, 12:56 PM | #9 | ||||
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01-18-2003, 04:44 PM | #10 |
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An out-post with 500 dwarves ready to march with spare gear at a moments notice ?
While the Iron Hills was no Khazad-Dum or Erebor it seemed to be the major concentration of the House of Durin in the late 3rd age. The impression given of dwarf traffic/populace of/from the Blue Mountains is small but steady. [ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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01-18-2003, 10:28 PM | #11 | |
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Incidentally, does Dáin wield an axe in the War of the Ring? What happened to the mattock? I like those, they were so hardcore!
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01-19-2003, 08:38 AM | #12 |
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Doug, what is a mattock? I think ganadlaf mentions, in the appendicies, that when Dain fell before Erebor, he wielded his axe 'as mightly as he did in his youth'. Dain, is my favourite Dwarf, BTW. Killing Bolg before he even reached a 'grown-up' Dwarven age is amazing.(I think he was 40 something, though Thorin also defended himself with a piece of a Oak tree, hence Oakenshield.) Dain was 250 when he died right? And wasn't his grandson supposed to have been Durin VII and last?
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01-19-2003, 08:58 AM | #13 | ||||
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The blade is set at right angles to the handle. (Technical description. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )
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01-19-2003, 09:39 AM | #14 |
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I never said that the Iron Hills were abandoned, just that Dain left them.
My point is this - it seems Balin, a senior [ but not The Sr.]member of the House of Durin got chumped by Dain, who decided to make Erebor his Kingdom, even though he would have been like Thorin "king" of Durin's folk wherever he was. Balin trudged along with Thorin probably every day of his life since before leaving the Lonely Mntn, for 200+ years. So after being in Erebor for what 60 years or so, decides to refound Moria, using his [ and Oin and Ori's if I recall correctly] rather substantial wealth to try and retake a second enemy held former Dwarf strongho;d. Balin does not seem like a fiery crusader for the House of Durin in the Hobbit, he seems solid level headed and kind. Hardly the one to, as a Dwarf senior citizen with the best available retirement package, go off and retake Moria. To me the only logical explanation is that his life was incomplete. He felt he should have ruled something after Thorin.
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01-19-2003, 09:46 PM | #15 | |
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I get the feeling that we have come full circle. Oh well, onward...
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Maybe Balin got bored and decided that he needed more adventure in his life.
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01-29-2003, 03:44 PM | #16 |
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I failed to earlier mention the strange comment of Gloin at the council of Elrond that "It was partially in the hopes of finding Thror's ring that Balin went to Moria.
Curious on 2 counts: 1. that he did not know, from Thorin that it had been passed on to Thrain, but not Thorin [goes to show how secretive Dwarves are!] and 2. That Balin was indeed perhaps trying to one-up [or in this case 2 two-up] Dain, by being Lord of Moria andhopefully the bearer of the Ring of the House of Durin.
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01-29-2003, 11:40 PM | #17 |
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Still would not have made any real difference. Bloodlines.
If he had gotten the ring he might have been suddenly inflamed with greed for gold and power, but under normal circumstances I'd say that is not really his personality. However, the ring was not there to be found. And Dain surely knew that it was hoped to find the ring, and he still let Balin go. If he was so afraid of his position, he undoubtedly had the power to stop the whole expedition, but he didn't. I'm still going for the "Balin needed more adventure in his life" theory.
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01-30-2003, 02:08 PM | #18 | |
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How could Dain have stopped him?
Balin was an extremely wealthy, noble, respected, highly placed and influential Dwarf. Second [on the lonely mountain] only to Dain's son and extremely close kin I would imagine. By what right's could Dain have stopped him? Jealousy? Fear of being shown up? It does say that Dain gave leave for them togo unwillingly, but by what rights could he have kept Oin, Ori and Balin from doing what they pleased outside of his realm? He may have been Lord of the house of Durin, but surely every one in Erebor were not his slaves. Indeed he largely owed his ascendnacy to Thorin's company, so he would have appeard extremely grasping and ungracious if he had tried to stop them. Quote:
and congrats on 700 posts. I do not mean to portray Balin or Dain as at each others throats or with hatred or animosity towards each other, but it seems highly plausible that Balin felt he got the short end of the Erebor stick and saw Moria and [erroneously the last Dwarf Ring] as a way to redress that. Dain was already going to be king of Durin's folk, why should he not leave Erebor to Balin? I think this was the root of Balin's deparure to Moria. [ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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01-30-2003, 03:55 PM | #19 |
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Not that Balin wasn't capable of ruling the realm of Erebor, but he was maybe closer to the line of Durin yes, but Erebor wasn't the great hall of Durin, it was founded by Thrain the old, who was certainly more closely related to Thorin and then Dain. Erebor qualified as of his direct lineage, not so much as of Durin's himself.
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01-30-2003, 06:56 PM | #20 | |||||||||
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However, it must be admitted that speculating on the nature of the military establishment is really reaching, but I offer a possibility. But another point is that Balin's followers would perhaps have been unwilling to follow him if Dain had forbidden the expedition. Quote:
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[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
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01-30-2003, 08:06 PM | #21 | |
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There is no indication that Dwarves are bnond-servants to their kings, it is simply unthinkable that Dain could have blocked Balin and co. for any reason other than treason or abandonong a post during war or somesuch.
Surely lords of the race of Durin as Balin was couild come and go at their own wish as long as there was no War or danger to the community. So all of the arguments of Dan stopping him by force are unrealistic, sure he could have if balin was a threat, but there is no sign that Dain had any more authority to order people of his realm around [ other than his household /guard of course] than the kings of the noldor did. Do we see Fingon ordering Nargothrond to war? No the order would have been scoffed at. Just as Noldorin Kings rule by suufferance, I see no sign Dwarven kings were different. Neither of us can prove otherwise, but it is truly hard to imagine Dain holding a royal cousin against his will just because he wants to. I fail to see how Dain would be responsible for any Dwarf that leaves his kingdom intent on setting up another. Quote:
Of course there are only hypothetical answers which we have both provided.
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01-31-2003, 08:37 AM | #22 | ||||||
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Well, at least inside specific kingdoms. The conglomeration of kings of all the various realms of the Longbeards obviously had a great deal of autonomy. What I meant is that inside the individual kingdoms there is just not really room for there to be a bunch of fiefs holding from the king. Given the rather limited space I have to believe that (politically at least) the king was in charge. Quote:
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I'm out of time and must go to class. I'll be back to finish up later. ----- Okay, it's later. Basically the one final point I wanted to make was that the way that Gloin said gave leave to go implied, to my mind at least, that Dain's consent was necessary for the colonists departure. [ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
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06-14-2004, 09:25 AM | #23 |
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The Lure of Khazad-Dûm
Surely the Dwarven attitude towards Moria ought to have been enough of a motivation for a group of them to want to recolonise it. Gimli can't stop talking about the place from the moment they enter Hollin, and it seems that the Dwarrowdelf has a strange attraction for the Dwarves of Durin's folk.
Balin, as a wealthy and respected Dwarf, was in a position to mount an expedition to take back the ancient halls of Durin, and my view is that, having regained the Lonely Mountain from Smaug, Balin's mind was drawn inexorably to the greatest Dwarven halls ever to have been lost to a powerful enemy, a place of almost totemic significance to all Dwarves. It's quite possible that he was thinking that if Smaug could be driven from Erebor, then perhaps whatever had driven out the Dwarves of Moria could be defeated in turn. Perhaps the great halls of Durin could be reclaimed, not just for one Dwarf, but for the whole race. I see Dáin's reluctance as a sign that he did not share Balin's confidence. Any king would be reluctant to allow one of his most powerful and respected lords to take a large group of his other subjects to certain death in the pursuit of a dream; even if that dream was the restoration of his race's most glorious city.
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06-16-2004, 03:33 AM | #24 |
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May I just put a slant on this fantastically interesting conversation...
It seems to me that everyone is under the assumption that Balin intended to take Moria for himself, I doubt this to be true - Balin was just the ambitious bloke who had dreams of retaking Moria - for all dwarves. I do believe that he would have intended to keep the title of Lord of Moria in opposition to Dain's title of King of Durin's Folk, but rather as a lieutenant-type figure. I was always under the opinion that Dain left the Iron Hills himself, with the dwarves of his household, but that the majority of the dwarves that lived there still remained. Of course, they would need a lord or mayor-like person to follow - what is to say that Balin wouldn't have acted as an underling to the King, as the Lord of the Iron Hills must have acted -until (or unless) Dain chose to remove his seat to Kazad-dum, however I don't see this occuring whilst Sauron still held sway in the east and certainly the party would make it fit for a King to abide in before he took the journey... As Squatter said many posts ago, Balin retook moria for all the dwarves, it was just that Dain didn't share his optimism.
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