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01-08-2002, 01:19 PM | #1 |
Wight
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How would hobbits do as wizards?
The hobbits - at least the ones we have come to grow so very fond of - seem to have a very strong mind and will. How do you suspect they would do if they were ever to study wizardry (maybe not the right term, but you get the point)?
Or differently: Would the form of a hobbit have been a better one for the Istari (or perhaps one or two of them)?
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01-08-2002, 01:33 PM | #2 |
Pile O'Bones
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well, since man are the race that above all desire power, a hobbit-sarumann would might turn out different... though i doubt their pysical form had anything to do with it. seems to me they actually continued to be maiar when they arrived i middle earth...
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01-08-2002, 02:05 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The form makes no difference. The Istar would be the same in mind and spirit no matter what shape they chose or were given. Their incarnate forms subject them to the hardships of a physical being, but they're not limited to the mental capacity of other beings of like form.
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01-08-2002, 02:12 PM | #4 |
Wight
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I see your point, but I was actually thinking more in the direction of how would a hobbit do if he decided he wanted to become a wizard (not a Maia)?
And also, if the Istari had appeared as hobbits, how would men or elves have looked upon them?
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01-08-2002, 02:58 PM | #5 |
Night In Wight Satin
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I think your last question points to the factor that would most affect how well they were received in Middle-earth. Throughout history, leaders were typically the tallest and strongest of the races with no notable (short) exceptions (at least none that I can remember). Thingol, Bullroarer and Elendil are three good examples. A Maiar in a diminutive body would like have less success in directing the efforts of the peoples of Middle-earth, and since the Istari were sent to deal mainly with the kingdoms of Men, the choice of Hobbit would have made no sense.
As for the idea of a Hobbit choosing a career in wizardry, I don't think it would be an option for them. They were remarkably 'unmagical' and thus, with the subtle magic of Middle-earth, they would have little possibility of wielding magical powers.
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01-08-2002, 03:02 PM | #6 |
Dread Horseman
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But just imagine the eats if they could!
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01-08-2002, 03:46 PM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I dont think that too many people would have listened to the Istari if they came as hobbits, it seems that alot of people had never seen or heard of hobbits outside of the Shire, save a few. It would be kinda funny seeing a little hobbit challenge a balrog.
As for them being wizards, I think they would have used their "magic" just to make tons and tons of seed-cake and pipe-weed! "Do not meddle in the affairs of hobbits, for they are subtle and quick to anger! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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01-08-2002, 09:56 PM | #8 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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And think of the mushrooms they'd be growing! And that would be some powerful Old Toby too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Pippin as a Wizard?! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Yeah I could see that! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe some of them Hobbits do have some magical powers as far as eats go, we could use some more bakers round here for Barrow Cookies, they seem to be mighty scarce lately. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
01-09-2002, 02:30 AM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Pippin as a wizard would just be scary...but in a good way.
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01-09-2002, 03:28 AM | #10 |
Wight
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Okay, I agree that Istari in the form of hobbits would be weird, and maybe they would have had a lot less influence on the kings of men than Gandalf and Saruman as we know them have had. As for the general knowledge about hobbits outside the Shire, I suppose they would have been quite famous had the Istari been hobbits. Quite wealthy, too. Who better to advertise for Old Toby than a wizard who grows it himself?! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Heh, actually this turned out to be more fun than contemplation. Perhaps just as well. Made me laugh a lot... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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01-09-2002, 10:19 AM | #11 |
Pile O'Bones
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So, hobbits are to short and fat for beeing leaders?!
Gandalf is a crooced old weiry man - and yet he wields a power greater than most imagine. And what about Aragorn? Aragorn is a Ranger, for God sake! A filthy weiry bad-fed drifter! Who could have thought him a king? There are more than eye perceives about the hobbits... (that sentence may not be interely right, though...) |
01-09-2002, 10:44 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Well Grey Ship,
Quote:
As for many I dont think it has to do with the hobbits "size". But if it were me and a hobbit and an old man dressed in wizard clothes came up to me and said "I'm going to help save the world". I would want the old-man on my side. I dont have a thing against smaller people(really I dont), but It seems that older people are just more wise(but some are just plain wacky). I agree with you about "Theres more than meets the eyes" with hobbits. Ok.....now im started to lose myself. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Gandalf
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01-09-2002, 10:58 PM | #15 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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Gandalf was sent in that form he didn't choose it himself. There is more to Hobbits than meets the eye, they proved that in the books. But Hobbits as wizards wouldn't work in Tolkiens world since wizards were Maia and Hobbits were not.
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
01-10-2002, 06:31 AM | #16 |
Wight
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Umm...
Well, what does a Maia look like? They came in the form of old men . Had the Valar chosen hobbits as the form of one or more of the Istari, then it would have been because the Valar (with their immense wisdom) saw it as an advantage. They chose the form of men, however, and as we know, it lead to victory over Sauron. Even though the form may have been an influence upon them; Saruman's lust for power, a typical 'manish' trait. Do you think the form of an elf would have been wiser? Or perhaps one Istari from each race?
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01-10-2002, 10:15 PM | #17 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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The Maia like the Valar can take whatever shape they wish, I remember reading that many Maia remain in spirit form though. The Valar may have chose the shape of men for the Istari since the Elves were departing and the age of men was at hand. The Elves in the Third Age had little to do with Men,or other races, the exception being the Rivendell Elves.
But like someone said above the Hobbits were valiant in their own right, though the other races didn't know it until the War of the Ring. Or maybe the forgotten Battle of Fornost where it is said the Hobbits sent archers to aid in the battle.
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
01-14-2002, 10:39 AM | #18 |
Haunting Spirit
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In the grand scheme of things, Hobbits are Men. Both belong to the Second People. They are the Younger Children of Illúvatar. They share the same fate: differences between them are cosmetic only. In my opinion Hobbits are not mentioned in the Silmarillion because Elves couldn't really tell the difference between all the different races of Men.
So if the Valar wanted to send the Istari on Middle-Earth under the appearance of old Men, the Wizards could have been Hobbits and that wouldn't have made much of a difference.
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01-14-2002, 10:45 AM | #19 |
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Well, I think that most hobbits have good minds, but hate to be bothered, and don't like adventures (unlike our friends, bilbo and frodo!). Many of the Hobbits don't like Gandalf and all of his tricks. They run whenever he comes to the Shire! They may make good wizards, but most likely wouldnt want to be a wizard! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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01-14-2002, 10:31 PM | #20 | |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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Quote:
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
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01-15-2002, 06:30 AM | #21 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Quote:
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01-15-2002, 01:13 PM | #22 |
Wight
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I think I agree with the theory saying that Hobbits are closely related to Men, and share their fate, but I don't think they're simply a variety of Men - such as the Dwarves/Petty-Dwarves.
To extend and perhaps clarify the 'stray-topic' a bit: How do you think Gandalf would have behaved if he had been a Hobbit? Could he have gone about the way he did, ordering kings around, doing as he pleased? No, I don't think so. I actually realized that Istari in the form of Hobbits would have completely changed the story. If one (or more) of the Istari had been a Hobbit, then the Hobbits would have been well-known abroad, and not the unknown little people. The people where help is least likely to be found. We would have had a completely different LotR (and perhaps a different Sil and HoME as well?) There is a very appropriate quote from Gandalf in the movie, which I don't think is in the books (anybody know for sure?). In the movie, Gandalf says that the world outside the Shire don't know or care much about Hobbits, 'something for which I am very thankful'. This may be taken from the books, but I haven't found it (too tired to start reading the entire introduction once more, anyone else?).
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01-16-2002, 12:43 AM | #23 | |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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Quote:
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
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01-16-2002, 12:55 AM | #24 |
Eerie Forest Spectre
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Well they are mortal, and the length of their lives similar to Men. It seems those are the two main traits that differentiate the races, beyond mere appearances.
"It seems we were left off all the old lists." I'm afraid Sam as a wizard would have been a complete disaster. [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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01-16-2002, 03:19 AM | #25 | ||
Haunting Spirit
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Quote:
Quote:
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01-16-2002, 04:25 AM | #26 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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That doesn't mention Ents. Look in the glossary of the Sil, there are no Ents mentioned. The Ents were not a race of beings, they were tree herders. According to TCGTME they were evidently spirits summoned by the thought of Yavannah to be guardians of the olvar. They are not mentioned as the Children of Yavannah either. I do not have to put possibly or maybe in my post. If such were the case that the Ents were the Children of Yavannah, it could also be that the Hobbits are the children of another Vala. Their life span parallels the lesser men, but it does not say their fate is the same.
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
01-16-2002, 05:04 AM | #27 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Quote:
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01-16-2002, 06:01 AM | #28 | ||
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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Quote:
Quote:
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
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01-16-2002, 06:29 AM | #29 | ||
Haunting Spirit
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Quote:
Leaving aside for a moment the fact that your expose was not an opinion, I still have problems with that explanation. Doesn't it strike you as odd that there are Entwives? This dichotomy of gender seems strange if Ents are supposed to be spirits. In addition, I don't understand how Trolls could have been made "by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as orcs were of Elves.", and I certainly don't understand this: Quote:
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01-16-2002, 09:43 AM | #30 |
Wight
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Certainly the 'lesser men' of ME don't live as long as hobbits!
Hobbits usually lived past 100 years, while the lesser men of ME have (the way I understand it) a life span similar to us. The descendants of Númenor are a totally different matter, as they were granted an especially long life by the Valar.
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