Why didn't Morgoth act when he had the chance?

[The Saucepan Man]

I have just started reading the Silmarillion and a (unfortunately not very pleasant) thought occurs to me.

Why didn't Morgoth kill off all the Elves shortly after they first awakened? He was aware of them before the Valar and surely had the means to discover their dwellings and eliminate them before Orome discovered them.

PS I apologise if this has been asked before, but I couldn't get the search function to work.

[ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Deathwail]

Elves made good Thralls for his mines so dont think it was so much he wanted to kill them all as he wanted to rule over them and all of middle earth.Only Elves he hated where the ones that he saw as a threat rest he would just pack up to Angband and put in to slavery. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Iargwath]

Hmm...i always thought that long before the Elves awoke, Melkor was already creating evil deeds. He threw down the Lamps of the Valar (this occured before the creation of the Elves), and destroyed the place in which they resided. After the Valar moved to Valinor, they created war on Melkor for they feared he would create more damage with the coming of the Elves. They imprisioned Melkor for 3 ages. By the time he was released the Elves already resided in Valinor.
But Melkor didnt stop his evil deeds. He slayed Finwe (the first high king of the Noldor) and entrusted the Silmarils. Furthermore he destroyed the Two Tress of Valinor. All these deeds were surely done as to serve a purpose. Melkor created these evil deeds since he wanted to bend things to his own will. Stealing the Silmarils (the great jewels which locked the light of the great trees,Laurelin and Telperion) and destroying the Two Tress of Valinor (Telperion and Laurelin) were just two of the deeds in which Melkor undertook to destroy all that the Valar had made. These deeds were what Melkor was hoping to achieve. To take what was whole dear to the Valar and the Children of Illuvatar. And to destroy all that was good in Arda.
So this explains that Melkor did indeed act when he had the chance. He acted straight away in my mind. Maybe not destroying all of the Elves, but destroying what they held dear.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

[Deathwail]

I kinda wonder why no one in the Ring of Doom didnt speak up about Manwe and the mistakes he made.Letting Meklor free,leaving the Trees unguarded so Meklor and Ungoliant could get to them with just poor Finwe to try in vain to stand up to a then full power Meklor.And staying out of the fight with Melkor fearing what it would do to Middle Earth after the damage done in the first siege on Angband when in the end they had to go get Meklor themselves anyway. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

Good question! Maybe he was a little bit afraid of them all together. Although you'd think a well-placed Balrog or two could have worked wonders. If I remembor correctly, Melkor would come and steal them away, one or several at a time, rather than ever attacking them openly. I think that the light of Ilúvatar in their faces might have dissuaded him from making a move on a large group.

Elwë and the other leaders at least seem to have had a great deal of innate power in the beginning - or did the elves only become powerful after travelling to Valinor?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think he was content scaring and still learning about the Elves (A lot of probing was proably involved. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])He may have destroyed them eventually, if they didn't serve him but the Valar put and end to that. Or maybe he was just plain lazy.

[the witch king]

Could it be that he still had great fear of eru and what he might do to him if he killed his 1st born?

[The Saucepan Man]

Morgoth is still around making a nuisance of himself in Middle Earth when the Elves awaken. Though I take some of the points that have been made, I somehow get the impression that they wouldn't really have been a match for Morgoth and his Balrog chums at that stage.

Surely a good plan would have been to wipe them out, with the exception of the odd few to twist into Orcs (a twist of Elf goes a long way [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ). Then, he would have controlled the only race at that time on Middle Earth and might have been better placed to resist the attack of the Valar when it came.

I like the witch king's theory. Maybe he was afraid of what Iluvatar would do. Is it likely that Iluvatar would have intervened if he had tried to carry out such a plan?

[akhtene]

It doesn't strike me that Morgoth was ever intending to eliminate elves as a race. He seems more inclined to reshape things to his liking and reach for ultimate domination. He only kills when he's opposed, or when he wants something he can't get otherwise.

[The Saucepan Man]

He seems more inclined to reshape things to his liking and reach for ultimate domination.

But surely he did reshape Elves to his liking, ie Orcs. Having done that, would he not have wanted to do away with the originals?

[akhtene]

Perhaps by then time was already lost. Elves seized being those newly-awakened infants. Besides, don't you think his Orks needed some game (I mean someone to hunt, as well as something to do)? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

Melkor and friends were greatly afraid of Oromë, right? He came along not too long after the elves had awoken, presumably before Melkor could mount a full assault. Maybe at the start he was more curious, and captured elves to get information.

It is very curious, though, because waiting too long seems to be a classic good guy mistake, one that happens throughout The Silmarillion and LOTR. Even Gandalf is guilty of procrastination. By contrast, Sauron attacks too early, opening his full game and leaving his Ring exposed (pardon the expression) to destruction by Frodo. Melkor seems to be much more wily and cunning than Sauron, also more understandable and dare I say likeable. I really hate that Sauron guy.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Orome found the Elves thirty five years of the Trees after they awoke, which equates to around about 335 years of the Sun. Assuming Melkor found them 100 sun years or so after they awoke, this surely was enough time to wipe them out, especially with the sparse populations, as originally 144 Elves awoke. I think that he wanted to rule over them, which was one of his desires when he entered into Ea.

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[The Saucepan Man]

But could Morgoth ever aspire to ruling over the Elves without corrupting them in the way he did by "creating" Orcs?

[doug*platypus]

Excellent point, Inderjit. It's good to have some facts as well as people like myself stating opinions which are based fairly insubstantially. However, isn't the number 144 from one of Tolkien's last writings on the subject? The writings in which the entire idea of Melkor corrupting elves was to disappear? Help me out, here, I know you've read HOME more than I have (I've only read 1,2,4,5 at this stage).

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The essay on elves and the 144 Elves awakening is in HoME, whislt the one on Tolkien's latter works is in HoME 10. Doug, you've read as much HoME books as I have, but ones with the most intresting info in them are 10-12.There is no need to buy them in order.

[Eru]

origanally Morgoth only wanted to rule over the elves, as he had ever wanted to rule over stuff.

the reason he idn't wipe them out at first, IMO, is that he saw them not as a threat.

are the HoME books really worth reading? those are the only books i've never read. well, they are a few other things. but still, the only HoME i have is five.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes-they are worth reading,esp. 10-12, and if you want to learn more about the first age, though there are three books on the development history of LoTR. (Books 6-9.)

[burrahobbit]

It wouldn't have made a very good story.

[The Saucepan Man]

It wouldn't have made a very good story.

Since when did that prevent idle speculation on this site? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

It doesn't, but that is the actually actual reason.

[Eru]

how can you be so sure?

[burrahobbit]

Because if Tolkien killed off all of his characters before they had a chance to do anything then they would not have done anything, and that would have been boring.

[Eru]

dude, i was just playing. that is not the only reason he did that. he needed a background to fall back on for his languages.

[Baran]

You seem to completely overlook the fact that if he had killed the elves at once they would have gone straight to the halls of Mandos! Think about it for a second or two.

[burrahobbit]

Come now, Mandos is the most boring part of all.

[Deathwail]

I still say its cause Elves make good slaves! (aka they dont die every 50 or so years like humans) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Ultimatejoe]

Morgoth didn't seek dominion as a goal unto itself. For him it was a tool to accomplish his goals. He wanted to control the elves not for the sake of any lordship, but rather to mar the purposes of Eru and to supplant the Valar. It is most likely (given his later treatment of the Atanatari) that Melkor stole a few elves here and there to attempt to estrange them from the Valar.

[Eru]

"But he desired rather to subdue to hiswill both Elves and Men, envying the gifts which Iluvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and be a master over other wills."

That was his (Morgoth's) original purpose, to rule over others. that's all. he was jealous and mad at Iluvatar. so yeah, in a sense, some of what you said is right. but only later did he wish to 'supplant the Valar.

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks Eru - that seems to tie things up nicely. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But, it gives rise to another question! I know that Men were vulnerable to temptation by Morgoth (and, later, Sauron). But was he ever likely to have had dominion over Elves? If not, why did he bother?

[Ultimatejoe]

If he had any forsight he wouldn't have bothered rebelling would he? Morgoth was mad, driven by spite and hate.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I doubt whether the Elves would have served him. Melkor's transformance to Morgoth happened after his chaining.

[burrahobbit]

What does that have to do with anything?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I just don't like people calling Melkor 'Morgoth' before his 'full' transformation, after the chaining of the Valar. Melkor was a character of far more potency, read 'Myths Transformed' for more details. Also, there may have been a TINY bit of compassion for the Elves from MELKOR, hence him not slaying them all, though I really really doubt it. Either that or I'm an pedantic idiot. I'll take the latter.

[burrahobbit]

Semantic pish posh.

[Orald]

I gotta agree with burra on this one, [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Durelen ]

[Eru]

and what exactly does that have to do with anything?

[Orald]

woops, wrong thread.

[Eru]

that's okay. i was just like, the language of the silvan elves means what to morgoth. he didn't care.

[The Saucepan Man]

I just don't like people calling Melkor 'Morgoth' before his 'full' transformation, after the chaining of the Valar. Melkor was a character of far more potency, read 'Myths Transformed' for more details.

Well, I've only read the Silmarillion (and only the first few chapters at that, so far), and that gives the impression that Morgoth was simply the name given by Feanor to Melkor after he destroyed the Two Trees and slayed Finwe:

Then Feanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwe he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after.

So, I kind of use the two names interchangably.