Watch you don't break a nail on that orc!

[eleanor_niphredil]

Something just occured to be about helms Deep. In Edoras, Eowyn says that their women learnt long ago that those without swords can still die upon them. so from this, we get that all women of Rohan can effectivly use a sword and fight, right?<P>So why, at Helms deep, did the women send their children and husbands to fight, while they hid in the caves? Surly if they could fight, they would to be out their? Are they afraid that they will break a nail or something?

[Grimbold]

That's an excellent observation. I suppose the women only would fight if they were closely and directly threatened. For the battle, there was enough time to organize the men and boys to get out there and do their thing. The women would probably have put up some fight if the Orcs got far into the caves, though. I'm guessing that the women were mostly taught in self-defense techniques, while the men were expected to be the soldiers and so on.

[eleanor_niphredil]

But surley, if a woman would risk her own life to send her children away from danger on her only horse, she would also sooner fight herself then send her son, who can't be more than ten years old.

[Arien]

They had to look after the Children and the elderly and Men and boys arn't good at looking after things

[Tar-Palantir]

I don't recall seeing any women of fighting age or condition in Edoras, or in the caves. Just the one in the raided village. Did I miss something? There certainly were many fighting age men, mostly with Eomer.

[Gorwingel]

Maybe all those other women did not have the training that Eowyn did, maybe they only fight if they know how to fight. I don't know, good observation though.

[Grimbold]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't recall seeing any women of fighting age or condition in Edoras, or in the caves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very true, which makes me think that Eowyn would be in high demand!

[Vardadurwen]

I've wanted to start a thread concerning this topic for a long time but I have been a bit busy as of late. Thanks for bringing it up, eleanor_niphredil.<P>A friend of mine, who is also a pretty big feminist, said that what she disliked most about The Two Towers was the fact that Eowyn mentioned that the woman could fight but they never did! I calmed her down by telling her that Eowyn does have a much bigger role in Return of the King and that we would hope to see her in some sword-fighting action then.<P>To me, The Lord of the Rings has always seemed rather medieval, with the thoughts of dragons and wizards. And, clearly, during medieval times, woman were not considered to be much of anything, let alone warriors. So I never really thought it a big deal that the woman were not fighting much. <P>Since men are generally tougher than women, we might be made to infer that the women would have a greater chance of dying in battle, whereas there would always be men left over. And so, if there were no women left, how would they reproduce? That might be stretching it a bit, but it's just a thought.

[HCIsland]

There is a shot of Eowyn in the caves with sword in hand being approached by an orc that you can see if you watch the TTT preview that got packaged with the theatrical DVD for FoTR. I guess this scene was cut out but perhaps it will resurface in a special edition of TTT.<P>As for Eowyn's line about women knowing they can die on swords, I don't think it's meant to imply that all the women of Rohan were good fighters. It had much more to do with building Eowyn's character. The line was adapted from the book.<P><I>"And those who have not swords can still die upon them. Would you have the folk of Gondor gather you herbs only, when the Dark Lord gathers armies?"</I>: Eowyn - Book 6 - Chapter 5.<P>H.C.

[LadyElbereth]

If the women of Rohan could fight, why were they sobbing and weeping in the cave instead of preparing themselves for when the orcs came through? I mean, I'd think that they'd put their children as far from the entrance as possible and prepare to take defense, so they could at least kill a <I>few</I> Uruks before they'd all be slaughtered like animals.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

The way the women of Rohan were portrayed was so irritating. Scene after scene after scene was laced with ridiculously dramatic images of sobbing women. Why did PJ do this? Wouldn't it have been much more endearing to see the women preparing to die bravely by the sword?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Since men are generally tougher than women... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that, generally speaking, women are tougher but men are stronger.

[Deiagorn]

I agree with what HCIsland said. Perhaps the Rohirrum were low on arms, and when it came between a tossup between women and strong boys, strong boy got the vote. Did you also not notice that every boy able to bear arms was killed? When Aragorn and a few dozen soldiers were barring the gates there was not one boy there. I think haveing kids that young was abit over the top. Anyway back onto the subject, I think it would of been a waste of arms to supply the women them when they would of simply been wasted very quickly. Plus perhaps Theoden had the thought of the Mountain escape of the caves lingering in the back of his mind all along? <BR>As for Eowyn wieldding teh sword behind the pillar, ready to strike the Urak-hai, that was on my mind too. Where would it be anyway? The Urak-hai never breached the caves as far as I could see. Oh well, hoped that help develop a few more ideas.

[Tar-Palantir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Did you also not notice that every boy able to bear arms was killed? When Aragorn and a few dozen soldiers were barring the gates there was not one boy there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is another good point, we weren't shown the survivors or who was where. However, I don't think every Elf, boy, old man, and soldier died. There must have been more left than were in the gateroom.<P>HCIsland - thanks for looking up that quote.

[Vardamar]

Well I dont know about you, but I would call being attacked by any army of ten thousand orcs bent on your destruction pretty desperate. If you look back closly on history, there have been quite a few times when the women helped out in the last defence of a city. What about the amazon graves they found in the ukarane? And not to mention that there have been reports that the ancient german tribes had some female warriors(not denfenders). My sister is another example. First shes of though shes not as strong as I am, she can beat most males in physical strength. And shes excelent with our bow.<BR>While were on this topic does anyone know if Elf women fight? I would think that after thousands of years they would see each other as equals.<p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Vardamar ]

[HCIsland]

PJ is getting enough grief for deviating from the books, this would have only been multiplied by having the women in Helm's Deep fighting. Human women simply didn't do this in LoTR. Now for my next reason I'm going to leave spoiler space for those that haven't read RoTK.<P>S<P>P<P>O<P>I<P>L<P>E<P>R<P>In RoTK, the only way Eowyn fights with the boys is dressing as a man. If fighting women were the norm in Rohan, then it kind of ruins what's happening here.<P>H.C.

[Tar-Palantir]

I agree that there seem to be no women fighters in Rohan, which begs the question (on another note) why even use the term sheildmaiden?<P>s<P>p<P>o<P>i<P>l<P>e<P>r <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In RoTK, the only way Eowyn fights with the boys is dressing as a man <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was my impression she did it so that <B>Theoden</B> would not catch her defying his orders, not because she was a woman."<P>(error corrected to appease the peanut gallery... )<p>[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Birdland]

Not to start a gender war or anything, but historically, if the women were not fighting it was because the men did not want them to fight. Training in arms was actively discouraged for most women. Their role was to look after the children, and at most to be a support system, fetching supplies for the warriors and such. <P>The male children, of course, would have already had some training in arms, so they would be called forward first to stand with the men in defense against the enemy. Plus there is that whole "male pride" issue. They don't <I>want</I> the women folk fighting beside them. It's a guy thing.<P>Now once the warriors are all dead or wounded, the women are left to their own devices, and history has shown that they will fight, especially when it come to protecting their children. But up until the bitter end, the men called the shots, and the women would be expected to stay back and let the "stronger sex" handle the fighting.

[Diamond18]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It was my impression she did it so that <B>Theodred</B> would not catch her defying his orders, not because she was a woman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm very amused at the moment. <P>Having Éowyn and the other women fight would have taken everything away from Éowyn's desperation in RotK. It wouldn't make any sense for her to do all that complaining about being in a cage if we saw her get to break free of her cage in the previous movie. This was established in the Warg battle when she had to lead the women away instead of fight against them with the men. It would have been too much too soon.<P>As an aside, I don't really think the spoiler warnings are nessecary, since this is a Books oriented site.

[eleanor_niphredil]

I do see what you are all saying, but I'm not thinking of this from a directors point of view. Personaly, I would gladly fight before sending my young children to fight for me. And if you notice the age of some of those kids. There is no way on earth that they can be stronger than a full grown woman. <P>Another thing that bothered me is the amount of soldiers that seem to die. Wouldnt all the survivors be barring the door? And why is it that only men seemed to survive? Legolas is the only elf that goes back. <P>Everyone refers to medieval times. But Middle-Earth is not medieval. Things work differently there. Eowyns line shows that women should fight.

[doug*platypus]

Try to explain it away as much as you like. The fact of the matter is...<P>S<P>P<P>O<P>I<P>L<P>E<P>R<P>It's just another inconsistency. Or maybe that wasn't a spoiler and you already knew it. HC, are you just Peter Jackson in disguise?<P>Éowyn's speech in the film alludes to the fact that the women are able to fight. Which makes the fact that they would send out their young sons and not go themselves a little unbelievable. I think that the whole sending boys off to war thing was a bad idea. It makes me really want to bash Éomer for deserting his people, and that's just wrong. It's been a couple of months since I read the books, but last I heard Éomer was the man.

[thunder_goddess]

Although war is in general associated with men for ovbious reasons, historically woman also fought, defended and hunted and so. Just not as much as men. It would be stupid to go and fight with woman alone, because men physically are stronger. Woman fight as a last resort. I think the woman would have fought if the Orcs got into the caves. But How???? Rohen was obviously low on weapons. And when I was watching the movie I was under the impression that some of the men on the walls were barely armed. And that would mean that the woman is the caves probably didnt have any weapons. <P>--------------------------------------<P>"Help me master, I'm drownded" ~ Samwise

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> HC, are you just Peter Jackson in disguise? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wish! <P>Nope, just someone who likes his movies.<P>People can talk history and they're making a point, but here were talking about the culture of Rohan, and I don't see anywhere in Tolkien's work that indicate that women fight along side of the men. It's a cultural thing. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.<P>I don't think this is an inconsistency either as there were women and children at Helm's Deep in the book as well. Not the people of Edoras, but the citizens of the Westmarch. Did the women here fight? No, they did not. Did old men and young boys fight? This is Gamling (from the book) describing the forces he has at Helm's Deep, "But most of them have seen too many winters, as I have, or too few, as my son here." I think the implication was that we had everyone from young teenagers to older men fighting.<P>As for Eomer deserting his people. He was banished in the film and, at the time, knew nothing of the attacks in the Westmarch. It was reasonable for him to head north as that was were they were encountering orcs at the time.<P>H.C.

[Cibbwin]

I totally agree, I'm a guy, but I love strong, beautiful women, and during the battle of Helm's deep I was hoping the women would pick up swords and fight... that would be the most beautiful thing to me. /sigh<P>My stupid gender has to be obsessed with power. /sigh Poor ladies