The Temple of Khazad Doom

[doug*platypus]

At the risk of seeming behind the times, I'd like to bring up the latter Moria scenes from FOTR. I watched the DVD last night, and felt once again disappointment in some places, annoyance in others, and utter revulsion for a good few minutes before I left the room to do something else. <P>Everything up to and including the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbûl was fantastic. Well, not everything, but it <I>was</I> really good. The inclusion of chapter titles as dialogue is not very well thought out, so I didn't like Gandalf's urging the fellowship on "to the bridge of Khazad-Dûm". <P>The ridiculous number of orcs that descend upon our heroes could have been made believable, if they hadn't been so close (nevermind the fact that the orcs leaping from the pillars were obviously in rigs). The orcs have bows, and are not shy of using them, except here. The remarkable Mexican Stand-Off (as the Nazgûl and Frodo in TTT) that ensues is less reminiscent of Tolkien than of the dreadful Amidala scenes near the end of Star Wars Episode 1.<P>I appreciate the way PJ tried to build suspense with the Balrog, but I personally didn't like the way he was introduced. Also I think the fear of the orcs was grossly exaggerated. Legolas' expression (or lack of) is just one of those things you have to get used to. Although next to Sean Bean and Ian McKellen this becomes a tad harder than usual. <P>I could even forget about the way in which Gandalf prematurely tells Aragorn to lead the rest of the company on, pushes him forward and then somehow overtakes him, leaving Aragorn at the rear. It makes absolutely no sense, but then neither does most of the Two Towers movie, and in retrospect this isn't so bad.<P>But the next few minutes <B>will not stand</B>!! Peter Jackson interrupts the pace to tack on a ridiculously unfeasible scene with falling steps, toppling columns, and dwarf-tossing humour. "Lean forward"?! What madness is this? The entire concoction serves only to provide enough time for the Balrog to run around the long way and meet them near the bridge. At what point did the script writing team sit down and say to each other, "You know, this Moria thing really needs some excitement added to it."<P>I'd love to hear your thoughts on Aragorn and the Temple of Khazad Doom. I think they just needed to give Frodo a baseball cap and make him look a bit more like a Chinese kid. <P>Oh, yeah, while I'm ranting - I also didn't like the way that Gandalf was clinging on for a moment, before losing his grip (or letting go?). I put myself in the shoes of the fellowship. There's GANDALF, hanging on for dear life, 10 metres away, and the Balrog is already disposed of. You bet your sweet *ss I'm sprinting as fast as I can to try and help him up. That's exactly why Tolkien didn't have that moment of uncertainty in the book - it's unlreastic that at least Boromir or Aragorn didn't try to help him up.

[LOTR_know-it-all55]

On your last rant~ Gandalf is being pulled off of the ledge by the strength of the balrog who has caught him by the leg with his whip. At the risk of the entire Fellowship being pulled off the ledge with him, I think it was a good decision to realize that their combined strength would not be enough to counteract the balrog. Besides, Tolkien said that Gandalf fell with the balrog. And that's exactly what happened.

[Diamond18]

Oh, oh, oh, I know the answer to this question!<P>The script writing team (per se) had nothing to do with the whole stair sequence. In the script it still says "The Fellowship descend some stairs and reach the Bridge". Okay, not an exact quote, but that is basically all the script says. When the CGI crew got ahold of the scene, they were inspired by Alan Lee's conceptual drawings of the stairs, to make it seem more dangerous. So they added in the crumbling bits and toyed around with the computer models, making the animated characters do all sorts of stuff (even more than was actually in the movie).<P>PJ decided that what they had on the computer looked really cool, so that's how the movie turned out. So basically it was the SFX guys playing around with their computer program because when they looked at the steep, narrow stairs that Alan Lee drew, it made visions of narrow escapes dance in their heads.<P>My source: one of the pre-production documentaries on the 3rd Disc of the Extended Version set. Can't remember just which one, but it's there somewhere. And they even said that the script still reads that all they did was descend some stairs.

Gandalf had to cling on for a moment so he could deliver the line "Fly, you fools!" which is from the book and everyone would hae complained if it had been left out. Also it gives him a chance to exchangea goodbye look with Frodo, who he will not see again until after the Ring has been destroyed.<BR>The staircase thing is just cool. Its a blockbuster movie. Stuff like that is included coz its fun. I don't think it harms the story particularly.

[Gorwingel]

Yeah with Gandalf holding on to the edge for a couple seconds, even Ian McKellen said that was impossible, but he had to say that last thing, it was in the book.<BR>I have to say that I think the Moria sequence was done very well, even though it was not exactly like in the book (like basically everything in the films)

[HCIsland]

The gap jumping thing was PJ's idea.<P>Personally, I liked it. It was ridiculus sure, but in a funny way, it sets up the Balrog. For someone not familiar with LoTR but familiar with action movies, stuff like what happened on the stairs is par for the course (though I thought the execution in this case was particularly good). When the Balrog shows up, someone who has watched a lot of action movies would just think, here comes the next incredible escape and then Boom! Gandalf falls. It works very well from a movie making standpoint.<P>PJ often preceeds and emotional climax with an action climax. Somehow it makes the emotional climax more powerful. The perfect example is the breaking of the fellowship, where we just had an incredible amount of action but that is not what sticks with you after leaving the theatre. They set up the very powerful death of Boromir and Frodo leaving scenes. It's like all that kenetic energy on the screen makes the calmer moments really stand out and draws in the audience, which is what movies are all about.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think it's called "suspension of belief". Something that Tolkien never (and never needed to) employ. But action films like this employ it in the bucketload to build up the tension (for reasons that HC explained far better than I ever could).<P>But, Doug, your analogy with Indie's Indian adventure is a good one. I was always troubled by the fact that the gun-toting villains' marksmanship was such that they probably wouldn't have been able to hit an elephant at 5 yards. And the orcs in (film) Moria seemed to suffer from the same malady (unlike Legolas and Aragorn, of course). <p>[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Rimbaud]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think it's called "suspension of belief". Something that Tolkien never (and never needed to) employ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I question that, sir. Please explain.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Is that, perhaps, "willing suspension of <I>dis</I>belief?"<P>This happens when there is a breach in the coherence of the plot, but the reader/viewer ignores it because it isn't important in the world they are immersed in. This is why it isn't hard to believe that elves can live forever or that the world was curved by the Valar for the sake of these immortals. Tolkien's work is so incredibly coherent for its immensity that (in most cases) the reader gladly suspends disbelief.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is that, perhaps, "willing suspension of disbelief?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's the fellow! Thank you, my Silver Shod friend. <P>But I was thinking more that, in action films, unbelievable events occur, but disbelief is suspended because the viewer is immersed in the action.<P>In Tolkien's world, no suspension of disbelief is required because, even though it is a fantasy world, everything is so exactly and meticulously portrayed that it is believable. You do not catch yourself thinking "Oh, that could never happen in real life", even if there are no such things as Elves and Balrogs in real life.<P>Do you get my drift?

[The Flame Of Anor]

The entire FOTR Bridge sequence gets my seal of approval, and for a Gandalf nut such as myself, thats saying alot. I simply dont see whats wrong with Gandalf grabbing on the edge like that. My complaint is that in TTT they whent and messed the scene up, swaping dialog order and not having the crack in the bridge appear until the close up.

[Fingo]

I only had a few issues on the whole Moria bit and not many of them had to do with the plot.<P>First off: I know that Dwarrowdelf is supposed to be big and magnificent and all, but the movie version was too big to even be imagined as realistic. I mean, Dwarves are not tall people by any means, and there is no way that ALL of those REALLY FREAKIN tall columns in such a FREAKIN HUGE room is even remotely accepted (at least by me) as "willing suspension of disbelief". You couldn't see any end to the hall or the roof of the ceiling. And weren't there supposed to be windows? <P>Rant Two: The stairs falling thing was pretty cool, but the law of physics are being denied again here as well. I mean, when Frodo and Aragorn are suddenly stranded on the other side and the steps start leaning, they go WAY over. I mean WAY, just look at the angle of the Hobbit and the Man to the backdrop. Then the stairs magically start to tip the other way and Aragorn, in effort to stop the stair from changing its mind again, says "Lean forward." <P>As for the Bridge scene. I cried. I cried at that part in the book and I cried in the movie. It was just as I pictured it. Although I did think someone should have at least made a move toward Gandalf for the sake of realism, with the camara focused completely on Frodo's and Aragorn's expressions, I can see how that would have been impossible to show. And you have to note that the orcs have reappeared and suddenly remembered that they have bows. Too dangerous for the King of Men to try and retrieve his good friend and guide. But he *was* supposed to fall. I'll cut the cynicism now.

[Vardadurwen]

Yes, the stair scene is quite unrealistic and I felt it was very unnecessary. Sure it filled some time, but I would have prefered some more funky shots of the amazing staircases of Moria. My brother was also extremely horrified at that staircase scene, especially the dwarf joke and the "lean forward" haha.<P>Actually, what's really quite funny, is that if you watch the movie, you'll notice the pillar that Frodo and Aragorn are on will tilt to such a degree that no tilting done by two people would cause it to move in any other direction other than the one it is so severely tilted in. Plus, even if they did manage to tilt it, the pillar crashing into the other staircase with that amount of force would have caused the remainder of the staircase to crumble, or at least send Aragorn and Frodo flying a few more feet than they did!<P>As for the bridge scene, I liked it. I also cried my eyes out in the book and the movie. Maybe the Fellowship hesistated because they were in a severe shock at what had just happened...I mean, not only had they just seen Gandalf battle with this immensely powerful demon, but they had seen their guide and mentor fall! They probably could not believe their eyes until it was too late...maybe. Anyways, I always thought it was a rather emotional sequence, especially with Frodo's final cry "Gandalf...NOOO!!"<p>[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: Vardadurwen ]