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07-08-2002, 12:46 AM | #1 | |||||||
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
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Derry Dol, Indeed
Today I have completely changed my opinion of saying what Tom is. Do you know what Tom is?
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Let's figure out what we know about Tom. Quote:
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What else was around when the Valar came in? Quote:
How can Tom manage to be around before the Dark Lord when the Dark Lord was the first thing into Eä? I would say, now, that it is because Tom is Eä, or at least an embodiment thereof. Quote:
ANSWER: Arda is song. Quote:
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[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] I made this topic a year ago. Please don't just reply to say how awesome it is. A lot of people did that already. [ August 23, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
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07-08-2002, 12:50 AM | #2 |
Wight
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What are you trying to get at? Tom Bombadil, right? Tom was described by someone, I not sure who, as the one person who the ring had absolutely no affect on. So, he could have destroyed it. He was so in tuned with nature, and the good things in life. but, he was soo absentminded, or carefree, that he would mostlikely forget the ring, and it would be lost. That's the technical stuff I know about Tom. but other then that, someone lese wanna take a stab at it?
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FRODO: *all low and retarded* Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it! |
07-08-2002, 12:56 AM | #3 |
Visionary Spirit
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* The familiar form of a grey-clad figure enters, encircled by rising wisps of pipeweed smoke. *
Well Met, burrahobbit: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I've nothing to add except my compliments to you on a fascinating post. * bows * Gandalf the Grey [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ] |
07-08-2002, 12:59 AM | #4 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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07-08-2002, 02:37 AM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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That makes absalute scence. I agree. Tom must be an enbodiment of Ea. Yay.
Does anyone have any other views to go ageinst this?
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07-08-2002, 05:44 AM | #6 |
Hungry Ghoul
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Ea is itself only creation, and not capable of creating itself, or an embodiment of itself. The central point of Tolkien's belief and his mythology is that the created are formed after the likeness of the creator, so, Ea, since it was created by Eru, is modelled after him. And there we come to the point where we have to realize that everything is either modelled after the likeness of Eru directly, or at least 'has its utmost source in him'. So, basically, the same as you proposed for Tom applies for everyone in Ea, basically.
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07-08-2002, 07:48 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I guess that cancels out my theory of him being a Maia
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07-08-2002, 11:39 AM | #8 |
Beloved Shadow
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I love the mention of singing burrahobbit! That's a great point. I was thinking, when the hobbits were trapped by the wight, how could Tom rescue them so quickly. Frodo called, and Tom was there right away. That almost seems to indicate he's everywhere. I think 'Tom' is just a kind of raiment he puts on when he wants to be seen. Also, it makes sense that the Earth itself would not be affected by the ring. Yes, Tom could have destroyed the ring, but it wasn't his place to. This was a task for the children of Iluvatar to complete. I would imagine that Tom knew the will of Iluvatar better than anyone. He was allowed to interfere to save the quest just twice, but the rest was up to them. I don't think it's coincidence that Tom happened to be located right where he was. I think he knew a long time before exactly what would befall. Also,I recall Gandalf saying something like "he has removed himself to a little land, with boundaries he has set". It makes sense that as Middle Earth becomes less wide open and more populated, Middle Earth itself would recede. I agree with barrahobbit, Eru created Arda as not only an object, but a spirit in tune with his will, yet not at liberty to interfere with the children of Iluvatar unless allowed to do so by Iluvatar.
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07-08-2002, 04:24 PM | #9 | |
Wight
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Excellent post, burrahobbit!
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[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ] |
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07-08-2002, 06:10 PM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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That's great and all Sharku but Burro's theory is the best one yet.
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"There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?) |
07-08-2002, 07:35 PM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It's often asked how Tom could be so absent-minded or naive that he wouldn't take the ring seriously, but if you consider his age, especially if burrahobbit is right (which is certainly a possibility), it isn't so strange. If he was there before Melkor, then Sauron is little more than a tadpole to him, and the ring of power some passing game.
Remember, he had seen Ea sundered by the Valar and the casting out of Melkor. Even if Sauron had gained mastery of Middle Earth, I doubt that it would've changed Tom. Burrahobbit, your idea is growing on me. The music really draws it all together. Just the same, Sharku has made some very valid points. Ea is only a stage, a shadow of Eru's thoughts. How could it manifest itself in a being as powerful as Tom Bombadil? There are concessions to be made if we would find ourselves closer to the truth. [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]
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"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis |
07-08-2002, 09:43 PM | #12 |
Beloved Shadow
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I don't believe burrahobbit is saying that Ea just up and decided to manifest itself. He's saying Eru created Ea as not just matter but as an actual sentient being capable of taking on form. That was the manner in which Ea (Tom) was created from the very begining.
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07-09-2002, 08:25 AM | #13 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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07-09-2002, 08:45 AM | #14 |
Maiden of Tears
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Most interesting idea I've heard yet for who Tom is. Most evidence as well actually. I'm inclined to believe it, although Sharku does have a point.
~*Varda Elentari*~
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07-09-2002, 10:07 AM | #15 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
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"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis |
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07-09-2002, 11:39 AM | #16 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
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07-10-2002, 09:35 AM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Where? Is it in one of the letters? I haven't read them.
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07-10-2002, 11:35 AM | #18 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Yes. In two letters he spoke about Eru physically living in the world.
Letter #181: "There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator in this story or mythology." Letter #211: "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Ea."
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07-10-2002, 11:41 AM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Try look at the thread "A good essay on Bombadil". There is an interesting article about Tom, with good arguments. It is worth reading, at least if you're interested in the enigma Bombadil is.
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07-10-2002, 08:43 PM | #20 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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07-10-2002, 10:59 PM | #21 |
Hidden Spirit
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I suppose that it would have to be, obloquy, though I am unsure as to how it would be manifest in Tom. Perhaps that is why he has limited himself to such a small area of Middle-earth.
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07-10-2002, 11:32 PM | #22 |
Wight
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Ea itself is not in discord because of Melkor. I think that only pertains to the inhabitants of Ea. Ea was created from the flame imperishable. I dont beleive that flame was 'alive' and capable of being affected in any way except for by Eru. I think Ea itself is the flame imperishable. That is why Eru told Melkor he would never find it. It was not any small flame or object, it was all of Ea. Melkor never found the flame because he was looking at it with the wrong perspective from the start. The power of the flame is in Ea itself and it is under the control of Eru. I think that when Ea was created Tom was also created as an embodiment of Ea itself. But I think he is different from any other person or Ainur (I am agreeing with Phantom on this). Tom was everywhere at once and his body was just a raiment he put on. What Erus exact purpose was for creating Tom, I dont know. He seems to have been alone or only with Goldberry for most of his time in Ea. The only time he is recorded to even be a part of history is when he helps the hobbits and when Gandalf goes to talk to him at the end of LOTR (If Tolkien were to write one thing, I would choose to hear the conversation of Tom and Gandalf over anything else). So I dont think Eru would bring Tom into existence to only do those few acts.
Anyways, Ive gotten really off topic with most of my post and I am only writing what I think. It could be totally wrong or disproven in one of the books and I dont even know about it. I thought I would just share what I thought.
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07-11-2002, 06:44 AM | #23 |
Haunting Spirit
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Tim is the essence of nature, the essence of Arda. And Arda is music! I totally agree with you Burrahobbit!! This, in my eyes, closes the Bombadil argument once and for all!
Thanks Burrahobbit! |
07-11-2002, 09:39 AM | #24 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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"Some of those thoughts he [Melkor] now wove into his music, and straightaway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh to him grew dispondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound." "But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before..." "...but Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes..." "...the Valar endeavored ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destoryed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it. And yet their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm." Quote:
"And I shall send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World and the World shall Be..." The way that is phrased the Flame Imperishable is at the heart but is not the substance of the World. (And I don't think that Iluvatar meant that the Flame Imperishable was literally and physically at the heart of Ea, but in a spiritual sense. But that is just my opinion.)
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07-13-2002, 02:25 PM | #25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Arda is not exactly the same as Ea. Arda is the Earth, while Ea is the material universe. Ea was brought into being, and then Arda was shaped.
How do we interpret the Music of the Ainur? Is it symbolic of the entire timeline, from beginning to end? Or was Ea created complete with all of the various themes already interwoven? I believe the former is true. I believe that when Eru created Ea it was a pure creation -- I don't think he could have created something that was tainted. It was then given over to the Ainur to fashion physical representations of the music they had sung. It was thus marred by Melkor's theme of discord. If this is the case, the significance of "Tom is Ea" is immeasurable. If Tom is the embodiment of Ea, and Sharku's contention is correct, then Tom must have come into being simultaneous with Ea itself. This means he existed before Melkor's "theme" began to mar creation. Does this mean that Tom is the only pure, untainted physical creation remaining? Does his diminished realm parallel the diminishing of Ea from its original perfection? Taking Sharku's post a bit farther, would Tom then also be a perfect reflection of Eru himself? I doubt that this (burrahobbit's theory and the ramifications thereof) was Tolkien's conception of Tom, but you have to admit, it does fit startlingly well. |
07-18-2002, 03:31 PM | #26 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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burrahobbit, I understand your argumentation and it is fascinating, but I found a couple of quotes about Tom that contradict that theory:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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07-18-2002, 04:15 PM | #27 |
Hidden Spirit
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I'm saying the Tom is the World, Estelyn, not that Tom is God.
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07-18-2002, 04:22 PM | #28 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Oops, I misunderstood you - sorry! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
07-21-2002, 04:07 PM | #29 | |
Haunting Spirit
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I don't ask to steer away from the original topic, just wandering. This Tom theory is great! However, another question: I understand he was bound, but why there? Why not Gondor or Fangorn forest or Lorien or even Mordor? These places seem a bit more signifacant than the Old Forest. Was he placed, or willingly moved, there just for the sake of saving the Hobbits from Death? Sorry for all the questions, I just have an insatiable curiosty when it comes to Tolkien. Just don't know enough!
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07-21-2002, 09:36 PM | #30 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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(It's so nice to have confusing use of pronouns isn't it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) To more clearly answer your question, the Flame Imperishable could not have been in anyway related to the fires of Mount Doom because for the simple fact that it is hidden and undiscoverable to Melkor and his minions. (I'd insert the exact quote but I am unable to do so at the moment.) Also I doubt that Sauron would be able to use the Flame Imperishable to forge the Ring. Probably Sauron would not have liked being in the actual presence of the Flame Imperishable. It is also virtually unthinkable that Iluvatar would allow Sauron to take part of his (Iluvatar's) power and use it to create a device of domination. As for your second question, there is no real answer except to say that Tom was where he wanted to be for his own reasons. The relative importance of the place in the eyes of the rest of the world was irrelevant. He certainly had greater purposes (to himself) than saving hobbits, even if they were carrying the Ring. [ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
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07-21-2002, 11:44 PM | #31 |
Hidden Spirit
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I wouldn't underestimate the importance of the Old Forest. The Old Forest used to be the biggest thing going. Trees for farther than my eye has ever seen. Trees are amazing things. When a forest is gone it doesn't ever come back. That's important. The diminishing of the Old Forest and of Tom's realm is symbolic.
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
07-24-2002, 06:00 PM | #32 |
Fair and Cold
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burrahhobbit, young man, you are far too intelligent for your own good.
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08-01-2002, 05:26 PM | #33 |
Pile O'Bones
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thank you burrahobbit i had no idea the issue of tom was so deep..however does there occour any reference to him other than in the lord of the rings and if so wouldn't it seem than rather he signifying an all encompassing figure of humbly shrouded yet grandios figure in tolkeins work might he simply have been aliterary conveinence for tolkein as his hobbits wanddered away from there shire to encounter "the strange things" in the woods and barrows.... thank you again
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08-01-2002, 05:31 PM | #34 |
Hidden Spirit
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I'm not going to reply to this until it's written in English.
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
08-01-2002, 05:32 PM | #35 | |
Haunting Spirit
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'See half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.' -Feanor, threatening Fingolfin with his sword. ~Moderator of the Mordor RPG.~ |
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08-01-2002, 05:57 PM | #36 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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The got it stashed in a book called The Tolkien Reader now, but that too might be out of print. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
08-01-2002, 06:00 PM | #37 |
Haunting Spirit
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Don't fret, it still is. I remember seeing Bombadil's adventures combined with another book a week or two ago, but I did not mention the book's name because I forgot it.
There, now you have two ways to get more Bombadil information: a) go to your library to see the original version, or b) go to your nearest bookstore. [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]
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'See half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.' -Feanor, threatening Fingolfin with his sword. ~Moderator of the Mordor RPG.~ |
08-01-2002, 06:07 PM | #38 |
Pile O'Bones
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thank o bretheren for thy most gracious acceptance of my butchered postings would that I might master the language called english lowley american though i be
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08-02-2002, 08:56 AM | #39 |
Wight
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tennessee
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Wonderful theory, burrahobbit! I am thoroughly amazed at your brilliance, thank you for sharing it with us!!!
I have, however, one question: Knowing that Goldberry is the River's daughter (a reference to her being a Maiar?) and assuming that as you say Tom is an embodiment of Ea, why would Tom marry someone (the River's daughter) that is something that he embodies... For if he embodies Ea, or is Ea, wouldn't he embody, or be, the River? Forgive my stupidity if the answer is as simple as I suspect [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] |
08-06-2002, 12:57 AM | #40 |
Hidden Spirit
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That is a good question, theWhiteLady. I've been thinking about it for a while. I noticed that you posted the same question over at MT. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Don't worry, you aren't being ignored. It's just something of a philosophy question, and I don't have any training in that. Tom is and is not the world. He is a world and a person at the same time. Persons are allowed to marry.
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