elf-dwarf wars

[Northman]

in the hobbit there is mention of wars between elves and dwarves. are these wars mentioned anywhere else and does anybody know more about them.

[Finwe]

There weren't specifically any official wars between the Elves and the Dwarves, but a harsh enmity did exist between those two races. It all has to do with certain events that took place in the First Age and the way that each race saw each other.

Firstly, the Elf vs. Dwarf situation dates back far into the First Age. The way it all started was, in Beleriand (a now-destroyed peninsula-type that was attached to Lindon), there was a King named Thingol, who ruled the Kingdom of Doriath. His wife was Melian (a Maia) and his daughter was Luthien (yes, THE Luthien). Luthien, being the wonderfully intelligent Elf that she was, fell in love with a ragged, Aragorn-type Man named Beren. Thingol, like all fathers, thought Beren definitely wasn't good enough for his daughter, and said that unless Beren got him a Silmaril from the Crown of Morgoth, he wouldn't let him marry Luthien.

What is a Silmaril, you ask? And who is Morgoth? I'm getting to that. Morgoth (a.k.a. Melkor) was one of the Valar, but he rebelled and got kicked out. Ever since then, he generally wanted to cause death, anguish, pain, destruction, etc. etc. to all the Valar and the Elves (who he was jealous of). In Aman, a certain bright, beautiful Elf had been born, by the name of Fëanor. He was the son of King Finwë, the High King of the Noldor. Fëanor became the best and the brightest of the Elves, and a very good craftsman, to boot. He created three holy jewels, the Silmarils, and filled them with radiance from the Two Trees of Aman. To make a long story short, Morgoth got very jealous, and along with the help of Ungoliant (the mother of all spiders, literally) destroyed the Two Trees, killed Finwë, stole the Silmarils, and hightailed it over to Beleriand, more specifically, to his fortress in Utumno (in the far north of Beleriand). Fëanor, and his seven sons, got highly ticked off, swore a great Oath to follow Morgoth to the end of the world in order to avenge Finwë and retrieve the Silmarils. They persuaded most of the Noldor to follow them, and crossed over into Beleriand. That particularly joyous occasion is called the Rebellion of the Noldor by all the historians (I wonder why!).

Anyway, Beren, Luthien, and an extremely intelligent dog named Huan (who had belonged to Oromë the Vala at some point) made it all the way to Thangorodrim (in Utumno) and stole the Silmaril from Morgoth. Beren, being the intelligent guy that he was, managed to get his hand (with the Silmaril) bitten off by Carcharoth, the watchwolf of Morgoth. Carcharoth went crazy, and while rampaging through the land, made his way into Doriath. Meanwhile, Beren and Luthien made it back to Doriath, and the Hunt for the Silmaril was organized. Thingol, Beren, Beleg, and other Marchwardens of Doriath went along. They managed to kill Carcharoth and retrieve the Silmaril, but Beren (along with Huan) managed to get himself killed. Luthien died soon after out of grief. The two made it all the way to the Halls of Mandos, where the Dead wait, and persuaded Mandos to let them go back again. This time around, Luthien would be mortal (She was an Elf in her "past life" and thus, immortal) and the two agreed to that deal. Beren and Luthien came back, and settled in Dor Gyrth i Chuinar ("Land of the Dead that Live") on the outskirts of Doriath.

That was how Thingol managed to get his hands on the Silmaril. Now, the Silmaril had certain special powers, that caused its owner to hunger for it with a very possessive greed (quite like the One Ring). He decided that he wanted the Silmaril put onto a necklace. He engaged the services of a certain group of Dwarves, and things went well, for a while. After the Dwarves were done, they brought the necklace to Thingol (who stupidly waited for them in his treasury) and that was when things started to go downhill. The Silmaril had stirred up feelings of greed in the Dwarves, and they were very arrogant and haughty in demanding their payment from Thingol. Thingol, on the other hand, upon whom the Silmaril had also done its little "job," decided that the Dwarves were being too arrogant for his taste and rudely refused them any payment. Needless to say, hot words were exchanged, and the Dwarves offed Thingol right there in his treasury. They grabbed the Silmaril, caused a great deal of destruction in Doriath, and made their way out. As they were crossing a certain stream (later to be named Rathloriel) Thingol's son-in-law Beren, along with a group of Green-elves and Ents (according to some stories) ambushed them, and got the Silmaril back. The treasure was drowned in the river, giving its name "Treasure-Bed" (I think). Ever since that day, the Elves hated the Dwarves (for killing their King) and the Dwarves hated the Elves (for cheating them out of their payment).

Secondly, the Elves also hate the Dwarves because they believe that the Dwarves take from the Earth without giving anything back. The main function of the Elves as a race was to guard, protect, and cherish their surroundings. Whatever they did, they made sure to interfere with Nature as little as possible. The Dwarves, on the other hand, loved mining, digging, etc., procedures that the Elves considered invasive and abusive to the Earth. The Dwarves say that they only take what the Earth offers them, and that they don't put undue stress on the Earth, but the Elves believe otherwise.

(I believe that lengthy explanation should suffice. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

[ November 03, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]

[Eladar]

Secondly, the Elves also hate the Dwarves because they believe that the Dwarves take from the Earth without giving anything back. The main function of the Elves as a race was to guard, protect, and cherish their surroundings. Whatever they did, they made sure to interfere with Nature as little as possible. The Dwarves, on the other hand, loved mining, digging, etc., procedures that the Elves considered invasive and abusive to the Earth. The Dwarves say that they only take what the Earth offers them, and that they don't put undue stress on the Earth, but the Elves believe otherwise.

Where did you get this information?

[Earendilyon]

Nice Finwe [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Got too much time on your hands? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Voralphion]

Secondly, the Elves also hate the Dwarves because they believe that the Dwarves take from the Earth without giving anything back

If this is the case, how come the elves seem to have no problem with possessing what the dwarves have mined, jewels and metals especially mithril.
Also, the elves of Gondolin certainly did mining, so I don't think that the elves were aagainst taking anything out of the ground.

[Osse]

I would say that the elves' problem with the dwarves and their harvesting of the earth centered alot more around trees then around their mining etc. There are many references in the books to support this.
The dwarves needed a constant supply of fresh wood for their furnices and smithies and unlike the elves who mostly used dead wood for their fires, they had no problems with the felling of trees.

I am sure the elves had no real concerns with the dwarves' minings and if they did it would only be because of the extent to which they'd do it-always wishing for more, delving deeper.


Osse

[Eladar]

I would say that the elves' problem with the dwarves and their harvesting of the earth centered alot more around trees then around their mining etc. There are many references in the books to support this.

Could you please post one.

[Finwe]

Ah yes, my mistake! Sorry about confusing mining with hacking down trees.

Look at the whole silent interaction between Gimli and the Trees in Fangorn. That unspoken tension between them was enough to show that some hostility was present. Another example is a little exchange between Aulë and Yavanna in the Silmarillion. Yavanna maintains that Aulë's Dwarves will recklessly cut down "her" trees for their fires, but Aulë matter-of-factly says that they will need fires for their crafts. Yavanna then goes to Manwë, who lets her "create" the Ents, to guard the Trees.

[Eladar]

But those examples don't have anything to do with Elf/Dwarf relations. Elves used trees too. It is true that Elves had the better relationship with nature, but that does not mean that it was a point of contention between the two groups.

[Finwe]

Elves loved Nature and cherished every aspect of it. You can see it especially in their architecture. For example, in Lothlorien, the houses are built around the Trees, and I daresay that in Rivendell, somewhat of the same thing occurred (except there were no talans). I don't think that an Elf would even consider cutting down a tree unless he (or she) was in absolutely dire straits. Dwarves, on the other hand, constantly use trees for fuel and "manufacturing" purposes. Because they cut down trees for seemingly needless purposes (needless to the Elves), the Elves think that they don't care at all about the Earth.

[Eladar]

I don't think that an Elf would even consider cutting down a tree unless he (or she) was in absolutely dire straits. Dwarves, on the other hand, constantly use trees for fuel and "manufacturing" purposes. Because they cut down trees for seemingly needless purposes (needless to the Elves), the Elves think that they don't care at all about the Earth.

It seems to me that your view of Elves is not consistant with Tolkien's books. Does Eol the Dark elf ring a bell? He worked with metals. The Noldor were excellent metal workers too. These Elves must have used the same material to burn in their furnaces as the Dwarves used in theirs. Therefore I'd say that Dwarves and Elves are in the same boat when it comes to industry.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Hmm, I think this whole taking out of the earth and not giving back is more put across by the actors from LOTR than Tolkien's writing. It always confuses me, because the actors over-simplify things and slightly alter their meaning or significance. Like Elijah Wood talking about Frodo and Gollum's relationship. I wasn't aware that Frodo sympathised with Gollum because he saw what he might become. Can anyone find me something to back that up in the books?
And isn't Rathlóriel 'golden bed'? Rath is bed and lóriel is golden (both Sindarin), isn't it? Like Lórien.

[Olorin_TLA]

Ay, Elves loved nature, wouldn't have destoeryed it like we do, but (especially/mianly the Noldor) they love to dig things up and cut thigns down to make works of craft.

Seems to me that the generic "tree-mating Elf" of cheap fantasy has wormed its way into this topic. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eladar]

Good point about humans Olorin. Humans destroy nature yet there are no accounts of wars between Elves and Men.

[Armiel]

Well I doubt this is going to go over well, however I have an opinion to add to why the elves disliked the dwarves. Quite frankly elves were known for thinking themselves better than the other races. They were the firstborn, gifted with immortality and the undying lands and they *knew* they were better.

I think of all the "Good" races of middle earth, they considered the dwarves to be the least civilized, and refined. (Not that I agree) They found the dwarves to have little care for some of the things they held dearest: Etiquette, The Earth (as was said before), Lore, etc. What is more they know they are Eru's creation and the dwarves are technically not.

Now my thoughts on the elves loving nature and the earth and the discussion on mining, I believe it isn't that either didn't take from the earth. I feel the elves felt they had more of a true appreciation for the gift(s) of the earth.

Just some things to consider. I am not an expert or anything. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: Armiel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

It seems to me that the enmity between the Dwarves and the Elves, such as it is, is grounded in the Dwarves' theft of Thingol's Silmaril and the bloodletting which surrounded that, which Finwe has so eloquently described.

The intial distrust between Legolas and Gimli is also grounded in this, but exascerbated by the events relayed in the Hobbit. After all, Legolas' father imprisoned Gimli's father and the two peoples would have ended up fighting, but for the timely intervention of a Goblin army.

There is a cultural difference in the way the two races viewed natural resources. Not so much between the Dwarves and the Noldor, who shared a love of crafting the treasures of the earth. But the other Elven houses did not share the Noldor's interest in this regard and were more appreciative of the beauty displayed by nature above the earth. This is emphasised in LotR in the contrast between Gimli's fascination with Aglarond and the wonder shown by Legolas (A Sylvan Elf of Sindarin descent) at the ancient beauty of Fangorn Forest. Touchingly, in LotR, Legolas and Gimli are able to overcome these historical and cultural differences through shared experience and comradeship.

[GreatWarg]

Ah, do not forget the beards! In The Hobbit, it says that the Elves like to make fun of the Dwarves, especially of their beards, and the Dwarves think them foolish. Of course, this may just be simply jesting and have absolutely nothing to do with the high and mighty tales of old.

Also, do not forget Turin! He was betrayed by Mim the Dwarf, and Mablung became aware of this. Of course, I am not comparing Mim to any of the good Folk of Durin, but he is a Dwarf, and sold out Turin for his own life. Later, he wanted to take all the wealth of Nargothrond after it was abandoned when Glaurung was slain.

I do believe, too, that there were some other darker Dwarves that allied themselves with Sauron during the Last Alliance, or maybe it's just me and my imagination?

[The Saucepan Man]

I do believe, too, that there were some other darker Dwarves that allied themselves with Sauron during the Last Alliance

Very true. But then, so did Men.

[Finwe]

All creatures except Elves were divided that day. I'm sure that's a fairly good reason for Elves to dislike the other Races, since they fought against them at some point.

[Eladar]

One thing I would like to point out is that there was no such thing as the elf-dwarf wars. Sure, there was mistrust between the two races and they didn't get along too well, but there was no real war between the two, at least no real war as compared to the Ork-Dwarf War.

If one is going to say that there were elf-dwarf war, then one should also say that the two kinslayings should be classified as the Noldor-Teleri wars.

[Findegil]

Okay Eladar you are of course corect. But the Dwarves of Nogrod made war against the Elves of Doriath. And both realams were completly involved. But it was not all Elves against all Dwarves.

And to add some good reason for the enmity of the Dwarves against the Elves and the Elves against the Dwarves: When the Elves how later became the Sindar settled in Beleriand they were when ever there was an good opportunity ambushed without warning by the Pety-Dwarves, that were already lifeing in Westbeleriand. The Elves did not recognise the Dwarves as speaking people, thinking of them as two-footed beasts and hunted them. When later the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came into Beleriand and the Sindar recognised the pety-Dwarves as what they are, they stop the hunting, but it was nearly to late. The population of the Pety-Dwarves had become so less that they died out with Mîm and his sons being the last of that folk.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Finwe]

I can just imagine that.

"Off for a spot of Dwarf-hunting, m' dear! Keep the tucker and a spot of tea hot for me!" *snicker snicker*

[Mungo of Bracegirdle]

Now I'm not really sure about this, it's just an idea I had, but there is no real proof that I'm aware of in the text. The Elves have won great renown as being the Firstborn, the first of the Children of Iluvatar to come into being. The only reason the Valar came to Arda was to create it for them, and in so many words, to "serve" them, and later Men. Now, Aule gets this great idea to create the Dwarves. Hey, they'll add some diversity to ME; I'm fine with this (even if some of the Valar aren't). So he goes ahead and does this. Now here comes my speculation. The Elves are a little jealous. They were supposed to be the object of the Valar's affection. Arda was created for them and Men, the real Children of Iluvatar. Yet, now the Valar are concerned with this new race, that are not one of the Children. So they develop a certain sense of "sibling rivalry." The Dwarves, on the other hand, resent the Elves for adopting this snobish opinion of them. This deepset, mainly subconsious feeling, is past down from generation to generation, just as predjudices are past down through the generations in our world. And, thus, after thousands of years, a deepset animosity towards one another is just intensified to the point where they really can't stand to be in the presence of one another.
Meanwhile, Men just say to themselves, "Hey, life's too short to hate these people. Let's just exploit both." So they do, and now our discussion about elf-dwarve wars has turned into a debate about the social structure of ME. To quote movie-Theoden, "How did it come to this?"

Cheers

[Finwe]

That is an interesting theory, Mungo. And yes, the Elves could have probably been jealous of the Dwarves, and of the possibility that the Dwarves could have been the Firstborn.

[GreatWarg]

Well, Aulë did teach some of the Noldor his arts as well. And as it is said in The Lord of the Rings, there was a friendship going on between the Elves of Eregion and the Mines of Moria before Sauron came along with his army to get Celebrimbor.

This friendship was formed on the basis of something Aulë gave both Races: the love of making things with your own hands.

And Dwarves could be jealous of the Elves since the Elves seem to get more of the other Valar's affections, and they mostly have only Mahtan to look up to. Also, the Dwarves don't like the Sea, and there must be a reason for this as well. Perhaps they were just never meant to cross the Sea, or it could have something to do the Ulmo.