Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
01-09-2002, 02:54 PM | #1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 259
|
Spells and Magic
In the passage where Gandalf is trying to open the doors of Moria from A Journey in the Dark from the Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says:
Quote:
__________________
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
|
01-09-2002, 03:28 PM | #2 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Nevrast
Posts: 103
|
Gandalf was a maiar, despite being in mortal form. There may be a difference between proper magic and enchantments that allows the blades of the barrow-downs to be embued with special properties. In tLotR there are quite a few instances of mortal/immortal men who can use, or claim to use sorcery. The Witch-King and the Mouth of Sauron spring immediatly to mind.
__________________
Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago. |
01-09-2002, 11:06 PM | #3 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
|
Gandalf being Maia could use what power he possessed, which was higher than Elven. Aragorn was descended from Elven blood, as well as Edain, far removed but he still had a few enhanced abilities. Sorcery I believe was taught to the witchking, and perhaps the other Wraiths by Sauron, who was also a Maia.
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]
__________________
*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
01-10-2002, 06:38 AM | #4 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Kehl, Germany
Posts: 25
|
Perhaps it is quite simple: Only Elves can use magic, because if any other beeing uses it, it is called sorcery or witchcraft. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]
__________________
Hobbits and Orks, Elves and Ringwraiths, Gandalf and Saruman, Aragorn and Sauron, Lorién and Mordor, Peace and War, Light and Darkness, White and Black, Good and Evil - did you really think it was so simple? |
01-10-2002, 11:12 AM | #5 |
Wight
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Posts: 205
|
Men could, to a limited extent, use magic. The dagger-smith "cast spells" (don't think of D&D-type magic here) on the daggers, and Aragorn used magic in the arts of healing.
The letter to which Thingol is referring was never sent. Tolkien got up to the point where he said "Men couldn't use magic". Then he wrote to the margin "but Numenoreans used 'spells' in making swords". Then he discarded the letter. |
01-10-2002, 04:41 PM | #6 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 18
|
There are a number of examples of both Dwarves and Men practicing magic. Some are fairly minor. Like magical toys at Bilbo's party, imported from the Mountain and Dale. Also the harps from Smaug's lair. Its possible these could have been made by Elves but it doesn't seem likely.
A bit more interesting are 'moon letters', invented by Dwarves, and the hidden door to Smaug's lair and the west gate to Moria. Human magic seems more rare, at least from non-Numenorean. However there is one example that puts most others to shame, indeed it can be argued that it is a greater feat of magic than anything Gandalf ever did. Can you guess what it is? I was thinking of Beorn turning himself into a bear. Also does anyone remember a story from the First Age about a Druadan that made a statue that could come to life? I'm sure I read it but I have never been able to find it again. |
01-10-2002, 04:58 PM | #7 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,381
|
The Druedain story is in Unfinished Tales.
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
01-10-2002, 05:02 PM | #8 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 259
|
I was doing some more research on this, looking through the letters and found these 2 quotes:
Quote:
Also from the Letters Of Tolkien: Quote:
Tolkien seems to referr to magic as an Inherent ability of the Elves. Men, Dwarves, and even Orcs could produce machines, weapons, armour, doors, runes, and other objects that seemed to be "magical" through the use of lore. However, that still does not explain Gandalf's original statement: Quote:
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
__________________
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
|||
01-10-2002, 11:31 PM | #9 | |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
|
Quote:
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]
__________________
*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
|
01-15-2002, 01:16 PM | #10 |
Pile O'Bones
|
Men must be able to use magic, or at least sorcery. When Sauron gave the nine to men, it is stated they became kings and sorcerers. I dont think the magic they would have wielded came only from the ring they were given, though that is an option.
|
01-15-2002, 01:21 PM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 259
|
Yaish, Tolkien himself said in letter 153 that men could not use magic, the power of the the 9 rings is the only way they could have wielded any magic.
__________________
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
01-15-2002, 02:37 PM | #12 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
But, as was quite clearly said a few posts ago, that letter was only a draft that was never sent, and Tolkien commented in the margin on the Numenoreans' use of spells.
There is ample evidence that Men can use magic. There is the Numenorean sword, though I suppose one could argue that these Men had a strain of Elvish blood. The Nazgul are indeed said to have become great sorcerers, though no doubt this was in part due to the rings. But there is no ambiguity with Beorn, nor with the Druedain. Neither of these had Elvish blood, nor artifacts made by the Elves. |
01-15-2002, 04:09 PM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 259
|
The letter in question is in the books, where does it say it was never sent? It was my understanding that what the Numoreans used to make the swords was termed "Lore" by Tolkien. They only appeared magical, much like a telephone would appear magical to people in the middle ages. Things created by skill are termed lore in letter 153.
[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
__________________
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
01-16-2002, 07:30 AM | #14 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Posts: 205
|
Letters of JRRT:
Quote:
Note 2 says the following (these are notes by the editor): Quote:
I would also say that Mannish magic is limited to some specific individuals, who for some reason had special powers. Some (if not most) were Númenóreans, probably of Elros' line. This would at least make sense to me. [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Elenhin ] |
||
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|