Dead Gondolin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Guildo · 09-16-2002, 09:03 PM

Just a quick question realy, but it may start a good discussion.
I made a statement in a post a while back about the Paths of the dead, may be the remnants of Gondolin. I tend to be a bit out there with some of my theories and have a bad habbit of over speculating things so to speak, but i was a bit insulted when someone replied saying it was rediculous and Impossible.
SOOoooo what does every one think. As far as the location goes, and taking in to consideration the ME being changed and reformed, Gondolin and the paths of the dead where pretty much in the same spot.
There is only one way in and one way out.
Thousands of traped and masacred elves traped except for the few that escaped would explaned the ghosts.
And Aragorn is a descendent of Thingol which would explain his authority over the ghosts.

so there it is im willing to be proven bored and the curiosity is killing me.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Guildo ]

Joy · 09-16-2002, 09:17 PM

You have an interesting veiw, but I don't believe that it is correct. (No offense.)

Quote:

As far as the location goes, and taking in to consideration the ME being changed and reformed, Gondolin and the paths of the dead where pretty much in the same spot.

Gondolin was in Beleriand, which sank at the end of the 1st Age.

Quote:

And Aragorn is a descendent of Thingol which would explain his authority over the ghosts.

True, Aragorn in the desendent of Thingol though many generations, but Thingol was not the Lord of Gondolin. He was Lord of Doriath or Menengroth. Turgon was the Lord of Gondolin.

Guildo · 09-16-2002, 09:51 PM

Well i actualy meant Turgon, not Thingol i got them mixed up but ill need to look at som emaps as far as the location, but gondolin is west of Anfauglith, and the paths of the dead are west of Mordor, i got the empression that Anfauglith became Morder.
Or am i TOTALY wrong and should just shut up and let you smack me.

Bruce MacCulloch · 09-16-2002, 10:05 PM

The short version: (Yes, believe it - Bruce is capable of a short version without extensive documentation quoted in the reply - lol)

The Dead Men of the Paths of the Dead were Men, not Elves, as the inhabitants of Gondolin were.
Aragorn could command them because they had broken an oath to Isildur, and Aragorn was his heir and could redeem that oath.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 09-16-2002, 10:20 PM

Bruce! Great to see ya, babe. Been a while since we've crossed paths.

Guildo, wasn't the original discussion about the Dead Marshes, instead of the Paths of the Dead?

Don't mind the person who come down on you like a bag of rocks. She's usually pleasant, but seemed to be in a cruddy mood that day.

-Maril

piosenniel · 09-16-2002, 10:31 PM

Interesting theory except for the fact that when an elf dies, his/her fea is summoned to the Halls of Mandos. Are you thinking that for some reason this did not happen?

If so, please explain.

Birdland · 09-17-2002, 12:00 AM

I think Tolkien was pretty unequivocal about who was on the Paths of the Dead (Men of the White Moutains, who broke their oath to Isidur to fight Sauron.)

Perhaps you are asking just where or why the tunnels where they dwelled were created, Guildo? It seems that the mountains of Middle-earth were riddled with tunnels and caverns, many of which could have been created in the First Age. Maybe the Dead were making use of Idril's old "secret passage"?

Which reminds me: I posted a thread asking just where Khazad-dûm was located in the First Age, since it was delved originally during the Years of the Trees, and was still there in the Third Age. Never did git a straight answer on that question! (Birdie drums fingers on desk top. I'm waiting...)

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

***Mister Underhill*** · 09-17-2002, 12:17 AM

Hey Birdie, as Joy mentioned above, Beleriand (which can conveniently be thought of as occupying what is, in LotR, the ocean west of the Blue Mountains) sank at the end of the First Age. So the famed Dwarven mansion was built, and remains, far to the east of the region that sank.

Here's a nice map of Beleriand. You'll note the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) on the extreme right side. On most maps of Middle-earth, you'll find them at the extreme upper left, to the West of the Shire.

I'm afraid this more or less squashes any theoretical geographical relationship between Gondolin and the Paths of the Dead.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Birdland · 09-17-2002, 12:36 AM

Oh...YEAH? Well...maybe it floated there! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

And I still want to know why all of those First Age maps don't indicate where Khazad-dûm is located. (Birdie pouts.)

P.S. - Hey, that is a nice map! Thanks, Underhill!

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-17-2002, 09:24 AM

What is Middle-Earth is what was far East of the lands in the First Age. That's just it.

What happened to all the Elves and Men who lived there? Did they go down into the Sea?

Guildo · 09-17-2002, 02:49 PM

I developed this theory originaly MAINLY based on the fact that there Locations "looked" the same on the map i mean Anfauglith looks alot like Mordor, i thought they where the same place just a bit changed, and the fact that there was only one way in and out of both of them.(This was pretty much all i based it on as i said i tend to Over Speculate things) But last night i found a Map i had never seen before that showed that Beleriand and Middle Earth where almost two totaly different Continents, conected by a nothern bridge with Numenor between them( ill try to find it again) but i think you guys have proved to me that they are two different places. (it doesnt hurt to think) But what happened to Beleriand im sure it wasnt just sunk like Numenor Could the have Merged?

Guildo · 09-17-2002, 03:11 PM

here is the map but i was wrong again, this shows they where on the same continent and it clearly shows Anfauglith and Mordor in totaly different areas. http://balder.prohosting.com/jjck25/lotr/largemap.htm

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Guildo ]

*Varda* · 09-17-2002, 03:32 PM

That's one good map *promptly saves it on her computer*. I wonder how they got all the information right? Still, it's one of the most informative I've seen.

**lindil** · 09-17-2002, 03:58 PM

As cool as that map may be it is unfortunately UTTERLY inaccurate in regards to the area of Eriador and how it connects to the ble Mountains.

Such a place as that map depicts never existed at any one time in M-E [ in the regions of the blue mountains at least] and was apparently a misguided attempt to put all of the eggs in one nest.

Unfortunately even that fact does not alter the fact that the paths of the Dead and Gondolin wer not even remotely close to each other in time or place. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-16-2002, 09:03 PM	#1
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Dead Gondolin Just a quick question realy, but it may start a good discussion. I made a statement in a post a while back about the Paths of the dead, may be the remnants of Gondolin. I tend to be a bit out there with some of my theories and have a bad habbit of over speculating things so to speak, but i was a bit insulted when someone replied saying it was rediculous and Impossible. SOOoooo what does every one think. As far as the location goes, and taking in to consideration the ME being changed and reformed, Gondolin and the paths of the dead where pretty much in the same spot. There is only one way in and one way out. Thousands of traped and masacred elves traped except for the few that escaped would explaned the ghosts. And Aragorn is a descendent of Thingol which would explain his authority over the ghosts. so there it is im willing to be proven bored and the curiosity is killing me. [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Guildo ] __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-16-2002, 09:51 PM	#3
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Well i actualy meant Turgon, not Thingol i got them mixed up but ill need to look at som emaps as far as the location, but gondolin is west of Anfauglith, and the paths of the dead are west of Mordor, i got the empression that Anfauglith became Morder. Or am i TOTALY wrong and should just shut up and let you smack me. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-16-2002, 10:05 PM	#4
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	The short version: (Yes, believe it - Bruce is capable of a short version without extensive documentation quoted in the reply - lol) The Dead Men of the Paths of the Dead were Men, not Elves, as the inhabitants of Gondolin were. Aragorn could command them because they had broken an oath to Isildur, and Aragorn was his heir and could redeem that oath. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

09-16-2002, 10:20 PM	#5
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Bruce! Great to see ya, babe. Been a while since we've crossed paths. Guildo, wasn't the original discussion about the Dead Marshes, instead of the Paths of the Dead? Don't mind the person who come down on you like a bag of rocks. She's usually pleasant, but seemed to be in a cruddy mood that day. -Maril __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

09-16-2002, 10:31 PM	#6
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Interesting theory except for the fact that when an elf dies, his/her fea is summoned to the Halls of Mandos. Are you thinking that for some reason this did not happen? If so, please explain. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

09-17-2002, 12:00 AM	#7
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I think Tolkien was pretty unequivocal about who was on the Paths of the Dead (Men of the White Moutains, who broke their oath to Isidur to fight Sauron.) Perhaps you are asking just where or why the tunnels where they dwelled were created, Guildo? It seems that the mountains of Middle-earth were riddled with tunnels and caverns, many of which could have been created in the First Age. Maybe the Dead were making use of Idril's old "secret passage"? Which reminds me: I posted a thread asking just where Khazad-dûm was located in the First Age, since it was delved originally during the Years of the Trees, and was still there in the Third Age. Never did git a straight answer on that question! (Birdie drums fingers on desk top. I'm waiting...) [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

09-17-2002, 12:17 AM	#8
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	Hey Birdie, as Joy mentioned above, Beleriand (which can conveniently be thought of as occupying what is, in LotR, the ocean west of the Blue Mountains) sank at the end of the First Age. So the famed Dwarven mansion was built, and remains, far to the east of the region that sank. Here's a nice map of Beleriand. You'll note the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) on the extreme right side. On most maps of Middle-earth, you'll find them at the extreme upper left, to the West of the Shire. I'm afraid this more or less squashes any theoretical geographical relationship between Gondolin and the Paths of the Dead. [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

09-17-2002, 12:36 AM	#9
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Oh...YEAH? Well...maybe it floated there! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And I still want to know why all of those First Age maps don't indicate where Khazad-dûm is located. (Birdie pouts.) P.S. - Hey, that is a nice map! Thanks, Underhill! [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

09-17-2002, 09:24 AM	#10
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	What is Middle-Earth is what was far East of the lands in the First Age. That's just it. What happened to all the Elves and Men who lived there? Did they go down into the Sea? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-17-2002, 02:49 PM	#11
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	I developed this theory originaly MAINLY based on the fact that there Locations "looked" the same on the map i mean Anfauglith looks alot like Mordor, i thought they where the same place just a bit changed, and the fact that there was only one way in and out of both of them.(This was pretty much all i based it on as i said i tend to Over Speculate things) But last night i found a Map i had never seen before that showed that Beleriand and Middle Earth where almost two totaly different Continents, conected by a nothern bridge with Numenor between them( ill try to find it again) but i think you guys have proved to me that they are two different places. (it doesnt hurt to think) But what happened to Beleriand im sure it wasnt just sunk like Numenor Could the have Merged? __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-17-2002, 03:11 PM	#12
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	here is the map but i was wrong again, this shows they where on the same continent and it clearly shows Anfauglith and Mordor in totaly different areas. http://balder.prohosting.com/jjck25/lotr/largemap.htm [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Guildo ] __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-17-2002, 03:32 PM	#13
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	That's one good map promptly saves it on her computer. I wonder how they got all the information right? Still, it's one of the most informative I've seen. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

09-17-2002, 03:58 PM	#14
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	As cool as that map may be it is unfortunately UTTERLY inaccurate in regards to the area of Eriador and how it connects to the ble Mountains. Such a place as that map depicts never existed at any one time in M-E [ in the regions of the blue mountains at least] and was apparently a misguided attempt to put all of the eggs in one nest. Unfortunately even that fact does not alter the fact that the paths of the Dead and Gondolin wer not even remotely close to each other in time or place. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

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