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10-29-2002, 04:58 AM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
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Did They Actually Make It?
Who actually thinks that Frodo and the other ring bearers made it to Valinor considering in the Silmarillion it says "In Araman the Blessed Realm was shut against the Noldor and of the the many messengers that in after days sailed into the west none came ever to Valinor" so wots everyone think?
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10-29-2002, 05:01 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Very good Alatar. I think you have opened a very valid point. Christopher Tolkien should be the one answering it.
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10-29-2002, 05:21 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Alatar's quote from the Silmarillion comes from the time of Feanor's revolt.
The situation changed at the end of the War of Wrath, when most of the surviving Noldor were accepted back into the Undying Lands, and again when the world was "bent" at the time of the Fall of Numenor. The rules weren't fixed; the Valar could admit or exclude anyone they pleased. |
10-30-2002, 03:37 PM | #4 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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(dusting off his copy of the Tale of Elder Days [five weeks on the New York Times best-seller list]) note what the Numenoreans are told by the Valar -- if they came to Valinor, they would only "weary and burn out quicker" (nice euphemism, that). How very kind of them to let Frodo and Bilbo partake of such "healing". Frodo was a goner as soon as he set foot on that boat, and the ungifted, er, un_dying_ didn't even have to lay a lily-white hand on him.
Much more for poor old decrepit Bilbo -- and buddy, did they pull a number on _him_.... Beating the old Took? Phshaaw -- he had a ring that would've kept him going indefinitely! But Gandalf saw early on that Frodo was the right dupe for the job, and talked Bilbo into trading eternal youth for some magic beans.
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10-30-2002, 03:44 PM | #5 |
World's Tallest Hobbit
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Well, its my own personal opinion that the Valar made an exception in the case of the Ringbearers like they did for Tuor. I belive that Frodo at least, if not Bilbo as well, did as great of deeds as Tuor. As for Gimli and Legolas, I don't remember if it say they come to the Undying Lands at all, but I know they take a voyage and don't come back. If they did come to the Undying Lands, Legolas would be cool, but Gimli was a Dwarf and I don't know if they'd let him in just because of their great friendship. But as earlier stated, Christopher should tell all, and that is just my opinion.
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10-30-2002, 07:23 PM | #6 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Could all those elves be wrong? Something...hope...faith...legend... led them to believe they would be received if they set sail. Throughout the story the elves seem to be both wise and informed. They act bravely, selflessly, but seldom rashly. I don't think they would have sailed or that they would have invited Bilbo, Frodo, or Gimli unless they had reason to believe they would be welcomed.
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10-30-2002, 08:39 PM | #7 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
Quote:
I, however, do not believe that neither Gimli, Bilbo, Frodo, or Sam became as immortal as the Elves they lived among for that was not a part of Eru's plan for them... [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]
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10-30-2002, 09:17 PM | #8 | ||||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
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Galadriel (Noldorin) crossed too.
Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli journeyed to the Undying Lands for good, along with Elrond, Gandalf, and Legolas. These four mortals (Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, Gimli) lived there for a while and died, as indicated in the last lines of the second quote and in the following quotes presented here. Exceptions had obviously been granted...it was a long time after the said ban on emigration was announced. Letter No. 154: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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10-31-2002, 07:21 AM | #9 |
Haunting Spirit
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Thanks Legalos. I feel better knowing they made it and had a time of peace befor dying.
Where did you find the JRRT quotes? I would love a book of his letters or papers.
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10-31-2002, 09:13 AM | #10 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
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Welcome. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien is published in paperback copies. You can check out your local Barnes & Noble or Books-a-million, or order from their websites, or amazon.com. It contains 320+ letters written by J.R.R. Tolkien to various people - publishing executives, his children, his friends, fans asking him questions, etc.
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10-31-2002, 04:21 PM | #11 |
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Legolas thanks for posting the excerpts from the letters as they are always a valuable reference. What I never understood was if the Valar had no power to grant immortality to mortals then how was this done for Tuor, "who alone among mortal men was counted among the Eldar." I would assume that since his status changed, then so did his mortality to immortality. Any ideas or answers.
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10-31-2002, 04:54 PM | #12 |
Haunting Spirit
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... dunno, maybe it's more a title of recognition...
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10-31-2002, 05:03 PM | #13 | ||||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Welcome.
Eru granted immortality (or mortality). It was given or taken away at his sole discretion. From Letter No. 131: Quote:
Later, in that same letter: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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03-03-2003, 04:48 PM | #14 |
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I agree with Selmo things change after the war of wrath especially when Earendil,the half-elven, asked "for parden of the Nolder and pity for their and mercy upon Men and Elves succour in their need. And his prayer was granted" Therefore the Nolder were pardoned when the Vala got together and counseled on the matter. So Elves were allowed re-entry due to the pardon.
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03-04-2003, 09:22 AM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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A nice thread. Thanks also for the Letters quotes. I loved that book and I think that it gives more insight into the author and his intentions of his creation than the entire HOME in some regards.
If the Valar "sent" the Istari, I would think that the precidence for "exceptions" was set at that time. As for mortals burning out - well from an vala or elf point of view it would seem to appear like that. It's relative. |
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