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10-11-2003, 01:22 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
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Gandalf's Staff
If Gandalf had been able to crawl back upon the bridge, would he still have his Powers? Before he fell, his sword Glamdring and his Staff fell into the Chasm, what do you think would have happened if Gandalf had gotten onto the bridge and fled to "Safety" with the rest of the Fellowship, and the Balrog fell?
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10-11-2003, 01:55 PM | #2 |
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Did Gandalf use his Staff or Glamdring to defeat the Balrog?
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10-11-2003, 02:03 PM | #3 |
Wight
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'What ifs' have no point in fiction, IMO, because the story is as it was written by the author.
Anyway: if Gandalf had gotten away, he would have prevented Boromir from attacking Frodo, who wouldn't have fled alone with Sam to Mordor. Merry and Pippin wouldn't have been captured, for Gandalf woul'd have prevented that also. The Ents wouldn't have been roused, so Saruman would've conquered Rohan, preventing them from aiding Gondor. Gondor would've been overcome by the power of the Witch King. They even would not have had the aid of the Undead, for Aragorn wouldn't have been there to take them with him to Pelargir. (As a side note: the Undead wouldn't have redeemed themselves.) The Fellowship (except prob. for Boromir and Aragorn, who would've travelled to Minas Tirith) would go to Mordor. Since Sauron had not to spend all his efforts in attacking Gondor and keeping in check Saruman and making his Mordor armies ready for the war, he would have ample of time and energy to seek the One Ring. He would have been aided by the fact of Gandalf's presence, who he would feel when close by. To come to the point of all this: the West would have been utterly lost and even we would now be living in dire circumstances (which we wouldn't mind, because we would not know any other reality). Edit: I typed 'Boromir and Gandalf' instead of 'Boromir and Aragorn'. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [ October 11, 2003: Message edited by: Earendilyon ]
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10-11-2003, 02:11 PM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Gandlaf still would have had his power...the power is in him, not the staff, regardless of whether or not you view staffs are "channeling devices" for power or as symbolic, or simply a staff.
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10-11-2003, 05:52 PM | #5 | |
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Gandalf's staff, I think, functioned as a channel for his powers, and it was a symbol of his power. The principle applied for the rest of the Istari. In The Two Towers, when Saruman was thrown down by Gandalf, his staff was broken, symbolizing the breaking of his power. Also, when Saruman is insulting Gandalf, he says:
Quote:
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10-12-2003, 01:51 AM | #6 |
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I doubt this to be the case, Finwe. The breaking of the staff was most likely the result of breaking of power, not the other way around.
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10-12-2003, 12:36 PM | #7 |
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Indeed, I believe the breaking of the staff was merely symbolic.
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10-12-2003, 01:30 PM | #8 |
Wight
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Maybe in many ways their staves are used in a similar way as Sauron's ring, just not to such an extreme. Maybe they vested some of their power in the staff when it was created, so that when they have it, their power is even greater than before, but they are weaker without it. If their staves had no power, then Gandalf would have not needed it in Two Towers to save the King of Rohan.
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10-12-2003, 05:17 PM | #9 |
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He didn't need it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] As far as I'm aware, he didn't use his staff at all, except to terrify Grima.
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10-13-2003, 07:45 PM | #10 |
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I have always seen the staves as a status symbol/ symbol of thier power. Note that Gandalf broke his own staff on the bridge in Khazad Dum, not that it fell and he was still able to defeat the Balrog. Perhaps the staves are contingent upon the power of the wizard to remain unbroken (ie as long as the wizard haspower, he has a staff), but their power is not dependent upon the staff as we saw that Gandalf did not need one in his battle with the balrog. Therefore, Gandalf broke Sarumon's staff as a symbol that he had taken his place and stripped Sarumon of both power and authority for mento see. Also, perhaps it is a symbol for men to see that thye have power. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
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10-13-2003, 08:36 PM | #11 | ||
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Quote:
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10-14-2003, 06:06 AM | #12 |
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If you read of Frodos dream in the house of Bombadil you will find that Gandalf had his staff still when he was imprisoned on the summit of Orthanc. So, I don't think he left it behind when he was carried away by Gwahir.
I have interpreted the braeking of Gandalf staff on the brige of Khazad-dűm as desperat act of Gandalf himself. He saw in the coming of the balrog and the already forseen result of the encounter with it (look at Aragorns words before they enter), the end of his quest come. He was defeated, and the breaking of the staff was symbol for that. But he did accept the rules set for the istari and laid the doom of the world in the hand of the fellowship and one ruler of all fate. Because of this humilation he did, he was in the result send back. Not to help Frodo in his quest, which he had brought on the way well enough to be successful. Gandalf was obviously sent back too save waht could be saved of the western culture. Only a small aside: Did Glamdring fall from Gandalfs hand when he was draged into the chasam? I never get that impresion from the bock, especialy because he used it in the fight against the Balrog under the earth. Respectfully Findegil |
10-14-2003, 10:05 AM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Lord of Angmar, thank you: fiction is after all a long "what if"; if there was no point, there'd be no fiction. Ever. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As for symbollic desperation, Findegil, amybe, but don't forget that LotR ain't just symbolism, it's got cahracters who act like they would if real: breaking the staff may not have been symbollic, at least on Gandalf's part, but simply the only thing he could think of doing at the time.
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10-15-2003, 02:08 AM | #14 |
Essence of Darkness
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Nah. Fiction isn't a long 'what if', as that is stupid. It is a long 'what is written'.
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10-15-2003, 07:59 AM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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No, because if it was a long "what is" you'd have NOTHING because nobody would ever have written anything for others to copy. The very essence of fiction is thinking imaginatively, which is a "what if".
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10-15-2003, 10:37 AM | #16 |
Wight
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I don't see why a question like 'what if Gandalf not had fallen' be the essence of fiction. JRRT may have asked himself while writing 'what if x or y', but once he had written his story, it was a story, which couldn't be changed, not even by JRRT himself. The only thing he could do, was to make another version of it, but the original still would exist.
Why would we ask ourselves 'what if Gandald had fallen'? In the story as it is, he has. So, we can't change it. The only thinng we could ask ourselves, is: 'what would I have written, if I had written this story?'
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10-15-2003, 03:52 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Not that specific quesiton; but to take that chapter, he must have thought "what's going to happen?" then "how will Gandalf die" and "who will he fight" and "what then?" You see?
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10-16-2003, 02:52 AM | #18 |
Essence of Darkness
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Well obviously for the author, he's the one that wrote it in the first place. But I'm not going to argue with you over whether fiction is 'what is' or 'what if', whatever that's supposed to mean anyway.
Imagination? I would personally rate this discussion as one of the least imaginative ones I have seen. There is much more you can do with 'conjecture' than this, although I haven't got a problem at all with anyone wondering whether or not the Ring would have been destroyed if Gandalf hadn't been killed. Your statement merely seems strange. |
10-16-2003, 03:19 PM | #19 |
Wight
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One point that I think might have been overlooked is the fact that while he is in the Shire, Saruman is left poweless. Now, would this be because it is the Shire? No, of course not. Would this be because Gandalf had put a curse on Saruman from using his powers? Again, no. He was left powerless because his staff was broken.
While Saruman was still in most every aspect still a Maia, because his staff was broken - his channel or "divining rod" if you will - he was left mojo inept. As for whether conjecture on this is even relevant, all I have to say is that conjecture and imagination are the very stuff that good fiction are made of. Simple conjecture doesn't necessarily translate into sacriligious "fan-fictioning". It only means that the reader is consciously thinking about what they're reading. Isn't that what this forum was set up for? ~Scott
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10-16-2003, 07:53 PM | #20 |
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Wasn't Gandalf's staff-breaking act a physical manifestation of his power to break the bridge?
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12-28-2003, 05:25 PM | #21 |
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I disagree with you Scott. When Saruman arrived in the Shire, he was without his wizardly powers because he had spent them all in his efforts against Rohan, which had failed. To me, Tolkien's concept of the Powers of Arda seems to be that the more they use their powers, the less their inherent strength becomes, especially if their effort ends up being wasted. I believe that Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff as a symbol of the fact that Saruman has squandered his power, and has only his voice left as a tool.
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12-28-2003, 06:01 PM | #22 |
Deathless Sun
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Gandalf broke Saruman's staff because he had departed from the path of the Istari, and had thrown his lot with Sauron, the Enemy that they were supposed to be inspiring the rest of Middle-earth to fight against. He had failed in his duty as a Wizard, and thus, the "new" Gandalf, who was now the Head of the Order, expelled him from the Order.
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12-29-2003, 11:16 AM | #23 | ||
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Reading back over the section it says nothing about Gandalf dropping Glamdring, so he must still have it for battling the Balrog.
Anyhow, I would say that the breaking of a staff is a result of the "breaking of power", if you will, but the staff is not merely symbollic. Quote:
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12-29-2003, 04:53 PM | #24 |
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Exactly, Firefoot. The Staff had no power within itself, and no one but a wizard could use the staff for anything but a walking stick(and maybe a quarterstaff).
The staff was merely a tool, and when placed in the hands of a skilled individual, it could be used very effectively. The wizard used the staff to concentrate his power and focus the energy. The staff is somewhat like a sword. It can be used effectively by someone with the strength to wield it. Without the sword, the person still has his own strength, only he can't use it as affectively. The concept is the same with a staff, the wizard still has his power, but cannot use it as effectively without a tool to work it with. Not an extremely sound analogy, but you see my point. The breaking of a staff is not only symbolic, it would greatly help in defeating a wizard. But it does not cause complete power loss. Simply a loss of an effecive tool.
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12-30-2003, 10:31 PM | #25 |
Wight
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Unless I'm mistaking, I believe that when Gandalf was battling the Nazgul at Pelennor, a beam of light came out of HIS HAND, not his staff. This illustrates that he didn't need his staff to use his power.
If I misread it, I apologize.
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01-17-2005, 11:58 AM | #26 | |
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01-31-2005, 06:09 AM | #27 | ||||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I was going to raise a new Thread, but had a quick hunt and found a very interesting Thread which covers a lot of the points here.
I raise this Post because of the numerous arguments over Gandalf's staff breaking in the Movie. Apologies to the Book loving brigade who don't want to mention the movies in this section. I agree with some of the posts above that a Wizard’s staff is mainly Symbolic. When Gandalf breaks Saruman’s staff, it is to merely show to Saruman and the watching parties that Saruman’s reign is over. Saruman still had powers (in his voice for one) that did not need a staff. If we look at various scenes where Gandalf shows his strength of Magic, it doesn't really show him using his staff does it? 1/ Gandalf forcing back the Nazgul on the Pellenor fields WITH HIS HAND. 2/ Gandalf before fighting the Balrog on the bridge, issues a Word of Command to hold the door. Quote:
3/ In Frodo’s dream at Tom’s house, we see Gandalf lighting the sky with his staff on top of Orthanc. Now if a staff is meant to be THAT potent, why not use it somehow to get down from the tower (other than to send out an SOS….) 4/ When fighting the Wargs, he uses it only as a deterrent to the Wargs. Quote:
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1/ Gandalf mentions a Word of Command to light a faggot on Caradhras. I admit here he uses his staff, but to me this is merely a conduit of his power, which was in his ‘Word’ Quote:
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3/ He DOES use his staff to light the way in Moria though…. 4/ The MAIN use of his staff in the books is here Quote:
5/ He seems to use the Staff to rid the 3 hunters of their weapons, I admit. But again, is the staff just used as a conduit of his power. Was it actually needed? Quote:
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In conclusion, Gandalf’s staff, although useful, is not all empowering. HE can function well without a staff. Therefore, (and sorry to end this on a movie note), if the Witch King could destroy Gandalf’s staff does not mean he can destroy Gandalf as well. Last edited by Essex; 01-31-2005 at 09:22 AM. |
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01-31-2005, 06:17 AM | #28 |
Wight
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Great post, Essex
To have a summary to it: (and I always felt that must be the thing) - staff iz wizard's conductor. I mean, the power is in wizard, and staff helps him conduct it, let it out
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01-31-2005, 11:41 AM | #29 |
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Great post Essex.
I would have to say though that in Tolkien's world that the Staffs are integral somehow with Wizards - i.e. a sorceror may use magic etc, but a wizard always carries a staff. And I think that we are all talking about the Five. Somewhere in the Books, Appendices (?) there is a quote regarding wizards and a word meaning "staff-man/men." Also, is it Saruman that taunts Gandalf about getting the Keys to Orthanc and Barad-dur and the Staffs of the Five Wizards? Pretty important, those staffs seems to be. Weren't the staffs part of the Istari's disguises? Their staffs were to help these old men appear less intimdating, as it gave them something on which to lean. Gandalf without a staff may still be formidible, but I couldn't see him without it - it's his trademark tool, like Aragorn's sword, Legolas's bow and Gimli's axe. I would also conclude that there's something connection between the wizard, his staff and his abilities. |
01-31-2005, 11:56 PM | #30 | |
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alatar:
Quote:
Gandalf . . . is an actual Norse name . . . used by me [J.R.R Tolkien] since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff."
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02-01-2005, 04:22 PM | #31 |
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Not much to add, no time for a prolix discourse. Not even Tolkien related...
But I can not stand a temptation
The discussion reminds me of Terry Pratchett and the song Nanny Ogg was fond of singing: The Wizards Staff Has A Knob On Its End... Work the rest up for yourselves But lest the post be deleted, let us have a quick go at it from Tolkien angle as well My belief is, that, in the first place, the staff is there at all: A) For such is a tradition (in Western Mythology, that is) Wizard should have a staff, a cloak, hood/hat B) For the name Gandalf was chosen, and Gandalf = Wandelf Rest, I'll just repeat what was said - there is no need (or obligation) for the wizard to employ his power via staff (I delibirately refrain from using word 'magic' here, reasons given in numerous posts around). To give you an analogy - the pen enhences my writing skill, but be there a pen or not, I know how to write, and I probably would find a way of writing in case of need (just it would be less refined, or more clumsy, without a pen) Not backed up theory of mine is, however, the following: Maiar needed staffs in case they were 'true' incarnates. Matter as an obstacle, overcome by other (and special) 'channeling' matter. Or another analogy - as a spell (or rather a 'song' with Tolkien (or even a word, sometimes the same thing)) gives a thought a form and power to change, so the staff channels the 'sheer' power. No time to elaborate on this, unfortunately. Maybe later cheers
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02-01-2005, 10:29 PM | #32 | |
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Ala-KAZAAM!!!
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02-02-2005, 11:09 AM | #33 | |
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02-02-2005, 06:49 PM | #34 | |
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Anywhen, H-I's channelling theory looks good. For their spirit to interact with the stuff of Arda, they need bodies. For their potency to do the same, they would need a medium (cf. One Ring).
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02-03-2005, 09:18 AM | #35 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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02-03-2005, 10:43 AM | #36 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Quote:
Is there a place on-line in which the text is available? Anyway, at the time of the Saruman staff breaking, does Gandalf have his hand on his staff? I wonder if this is the case in many of the events noted by Essex. |
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02-03-2005, 10:56 AM | #37 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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alatar,
look at post #27 above which shows the text. Here is an expanded version. Trust me, it's from the book. Quote:
IMO, what one needs to do when analysing a scene, is to think WHY Tolkien wrote it this way. What, IMO, he is doing here by writing that Gandalf raised his hand and used his voice is EXPLICITLY showing that Gandalf DOES NOT NEED TO USE HIS STAFF to cast Saruman from the Order. (If he wanted to show Gandalf was chanelling power or gaining power from his staff he would have written "raised his staff' instead of 'raised his hand') Indeed, at the start of the passage, all Gandalf needed to haul Saruman back was the power of his Voice. Tolkien is showing in this scene that Gandalf can break Saruman's staff and cast him from the Order with his own power, simple and direct, and not chanelling through any object. PS Gandalf's staff is mentioned ONCE by Tolkien in the whole of the Voice of Saruman Chapter, and just as a door knocker! Quote:
Last edited by Essex; 02-03-2005 at 11:02 AM. |
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02-03-2005, 11:11 AM | #38 | |
Dead Serious
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In this thread, which was on magic in general, I made this post concerning my thoughts on the staffs:
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02-03-2005, 11:37 AM | #39 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Thanks Essex for providing the text, and I DO trust that it is the verbatim, as anything less would be blasphemy.
Again, not to nitpick (but that's how this will appear ), but the text says nothing in regards to whether Gandalf's hand is on his staff or not. Presumably, if he were not mounted, he would have his staff in hand. Surely you will give me something else to consider after reading the above, but in anticipation, as an example of 'item not mentioned explicitly, therefore...' I would point out that the Three Elvish rings were all in use, yet I can't remember any references such as "Elrond used his ring to" etc. I really need to get those books out as (1) I hate trying to make a point based on memory and (2) this forum is making me want to dive in, yet again. I like Formendacil's comments regarding the staff being a symbol of office. |
02-03-2005, 10:33 PM | #40 |
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A hand, a voice . . .
They are still physical channels of spiritual potency. I said "a medium": A staff is one of them, perhaps. But there are others, as you have proven.
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