Lothlorien - reminder - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

arelendil · 12-26-2002, 12:50 PM

Why did Galadriel call her realm after Lorien in the Undying Lands! I re-read the sil but can't find any reference to her being in Lorien or any connection at all!

Do you think that she want to remind herself of the West? Or did Lorien get called that by someone else? The question has been bugging me all day and it christmas so i don't get to see Gothrothlammiel till ages away so i can't ask her!

the mortal elf · 12-26-2002, 12:58 PM

Good point. Maybe she did want a little reminder, or maybe she was just high on herself. Maybe she wanted to name Lorien after the Valinor one because she wanted to prove that hers could be just as great. Remember, she came with Feanor because she wanted her own realm. Greedy little bugger. It took me a while to forgive her for that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Galorme · 12-26-2002, 01:19 PM

Hmm my quenya is far from adequate, but I think Lothlorien means Flower Garden, and Lorien Garden. So it could just be because they were both an tended area (a garden). But it could just be that they are very similar: they are both undying lands of peace that are tended by a powerful female force.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

Lush · 12-26-2002, 01:32 PM

Heh. I don't suppose there was anything wrong with Galadriel's desire to rule her own realm, since she proved so adept at it. At the same time, I think Tolkien wanted us to remember that when it comes to these things, hindsight is always 20/20. As for the whole Lorien business, well, my copy of the Sil is up at school, but as I recall, she really did want the name to be a reminder of sorts, a little throwback to the days of her youth, I suppose (not that the Elves have to worry about wrinkles, but, you know what I mean).

arelendil · 12-26-2002, 01:52 PM

i always thought it meant something to do with dreams. Loth = flower and lorien isn't that dream or dream flower. Is it then cause people/elves found it beautiful and enchartening like a dream. In which case did the realm come and then the people in it named it not just Galadriel?

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: arelendil ]

piosenniel · 12-26-2002, 02:02 PM

Galadriel was originally from Eldamar, the ancient home of the Elves in the Undying Lands. She would most certainly have visited Lórien in Valinor when she lived there.

The literal meaning for Lórien is 'Land of Gold'. Lórien was the only place in Middle-earth where the Mellyrn, the Trees of Gold, grew, recalling to the Elves the Golden Tree, Laurelin, one of the Two Trees of Valinor.

It would certainly be understandable that Galadriel would want to make that link.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

arelendil · 12-26-2002, 02:34 PM

So the name was a reminder of the past, the land she had left behind. Do you think that annoyed the other elves in Lothlorien. I mean it's like saying 'I went to the West and you didn't'. Can elves be that childish?Or am i simplifying it too much.

Did the Golden trees in Lothlorien, the mellorn already grow there so galadriel name the land that? That's wierd these beautiful trees grow there and no one paying any attention till Galadriel comes or did she bring them for the point of naming her land Lothlorien. In which case she already had a name and a destination before she left the West or was it her gift of foresight that told her to call it that?

I wonder if the other elves in Lothlorien every got a say in what the land was called, I'm sure there must of been powerful elves dwelling there, did they just have to obey Galadriel, what about Celeborn?

Willow · 12-26-2002, 02:58 PM

From TTT, what Treebeard said:
"...And I might have said much the same, if you had been going the other way. Do not risk getting entangled in the woods of Laurelindorenan! That is what the Elves used to call it, but now they make the name shorter: Lothlorien they call it. Perhaps they are right: maybe it is fading, not growing. Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower..."
So Laurelindorenan means Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, and Lothlorien means Dreamflower. Perhaps the names of Laurelindorenan and Laurelin the Tree of Valinor are similar because Laurelin means something to do with gold? If the languages became sundered and changed over the years, it would not be hard to get Lorien from Laurelin. But Treebeard seems to mean that Lothlorien is a shortened version of Laurelindorenan.

Aha! The index in the back of The Silmarillion defines Laurelin as "Song of Gold". Under Lorien, it says "The land ruled by Celeborn and Galadriel between the rivers Celebrant and Anduin. Probably the original name of this land was altered to the form of the Quenya name Lorien of the gardens of the Vala Irmo in Valinor. In Lothlorien the Sindarin word loth "flower" is prefixed."

In FOTR Legolas defines Lothlorien as Lorien of the Blossom. But isn't Lothlorien also known as the Golden Wood?

Maybe Laurelindorenan was derived from the Quenya, and Lothlorien/Lorien from the Sindarin since loth=flower in Sindarin?
I'll quit now. I'm confusing myself.

doug*platypus · 01-04-2003, 02:50 AM

I think you answered your own question in your first post! Galadriel definitely pined for the Undying Lands. You don't have to look far in our own world to see examples of settlers naming new places after familiar old ones, either because they look similar or just because they were homesick.

New York and New Orleans in the US, Newcastle in Australia, Dunedin in Aotearoa/New Zealand. Maybe she wasn't trying to create a New Lorien, and it was just homage. Probably no other places in Valinor reminded her of the Golden Wood so much.

12-26-2002, 12:50 PM	#1
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	Lothlorien - reminder Why did Galadriel call her realm after Lorien in the Undying Lands! I re-read the sil but can't find any reference to her being in Lorien or any connection at all! Do you think that she want to remind herself of the West? Or did Lorien get called that by someone else? The question has been bugging me all day and it christmas so i don't get to see Gothrothlammiel till ages away so i can't ask her! __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

12-26-2002, 12:58 PM	#2
the mortal elf Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Posts: 201	Good point. Maybe she did want a little reminder, or maybe she was just high on herself. Maybe she wanted to name Lorien after the Valinor one because she wanted to prove that hers could be just as great. Remember, she came with Feanor because she wanted her own realm. Greedy little bugger. It took me a while to forgive her for that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ My imaginary friend says you have problems.

12-26-2002, 01:19 PM	#3
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Hmm my quenya is far from adequate, but I think Lothlorien means Flower Garden, and Lorien Garden. So it could just be because they were both an tended area (a garden). But it could just be that they are very similar: they are both undying lands of peace that are tended by a powerful female force. [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-26-2002, 01:32 PM	#4
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Heh. I don't suppose there was anything wrong with Galadriel's desire to rule her own realm, since she proved so adept at it. At the same time, I think Tolkien wanted us to remember that when it comes to these things, hindsight is always 20/20. As for the whole Lorien business, well, my copy of the Sil is up at school, but as I recall, she really did want the name to be a reminder of sorts, a little throwback to the days of her youth, I suppose (not that the Elves have to worry about wrinkles, but, you know what I mean). __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

12-26-2002, 01:52 PM	#5
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	i always thought it meant something to do with dreams. Loth = flower and lorien isn't that dream or dream flower. Is it then cause people/elves found it beautiful and enchartening like a dream. In which case did the realm come and then the people in it named it not just Galadriel? [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: arelendil ] __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

12-26-2002, 02:02 PM	#6
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Galadriel was originally from Eldamar, the ancient home of the Elves in the Undying Lands. She would most certainly have visited Lórien in Valinor when she lived there. The literal meaning for Lórien is 'Land of Gold'. Lórien was the only place in Middle-earth where the Mellyrn, the Trees of Gold, grew, recalling to the Elves the Golden Tree, Laurelin, one of the Two Trees of Valinor. It would certainly be understandable that Galadriel would want to make that link. [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

12-26-2002, 02:34 PM	#7
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	So the name was a reminder of the past, the land she had left behind. Do you think that annoyed the other elves in Lothlorien. I mean it's like saying 'I went to the West and you didn't'. Can elves be that childish?Or am i simplifying it too much. Did the Golden trees in Lothlorien, the mellorn already grow there so galadriel name the land that? That's wierd these beautiful trees grow there and no one paying any attention till Galadriel comes or did she bring them for the point of naming her land Lothlorien. In which case she already had a name and a destination before she left the West or was it her gift of foresight that told her to call it that? I wonder if the other elves in Lothlorien every got a say in what the land was called, I'm sure there must of been powerful elves dwelling there, did they just have to obey Galadriel, what about Celeborn? __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

12-26-2002, 02:58 PM	#8
Willow Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	From TTT, what Treebeard said: "...And I might have said much the same, if you had been going the other way. Do not risk getting entangled in the woods of Laurelindorenan! That is what the Elves used to call it, but now they make the name shorter: Lothlorien they call it. Perhaps they are right: maybe it is fading, not growing. Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower..." So Laurelindorenan means Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, and Lothlorien means Dreamflower. Perhaps the names of Laurelindorenan and Laurelin the Tree of Valinor are similar because Laurelin means something to do with gold? If the languages became sundered and changed over the years, it would not be hard to get Lorien from Laurelin. But Treebeard seems to mean that Lothlorien is a shortened version of Laurelindorenan. Aha! The index in the back of The Silmarillion defines Laurelin as "Song of Gold". Under Lorien, it says "The land ruled by Celeborn and Galadriel between the rivers Celebrant and Anduin. Probably the original name of this land was altered to the form of the Quenya name Lorien of the gardens of the Vala Irmo in Valinor. In Lothlorien the Sindarin word loth "flower" is prefixed." In FOTR Legolas defines Lothlorien as Lorien of the Blossom. But isn't Lothlorien also known as the Golden Wood? Maybe Laurelindorenan was derived from the Quenya, and Lothlorien/Lorien from the Sindarin since loth=flower in Sindarin? I'll quit now. I'm confusing myself. __________________ Peruser of old threads.

01-04-2003, 02:50 AM	#9
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I think you answered your own question in your first post! Galadriel definitely pined for the Undying Lands. You don't have to look far in our own world to see examples of settlers naming new places after familiar old ones, either because they look similar or just because they were homesick. New York and New Orleans in the US, Newcastle in Australia, Dunedin in Aotearoa/New Zealand. Maybe she wasn't trying to create a New Lorien, and it was just homage. Probably no other places in Valinor reminded her of the Golden Wood so much. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

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