Higher order: Gandalf or Balrog(s)

[Eggy]

hmm..cant seem to decide my self maybe ye could help me???

[ October 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Well, Gandalf defeated a Balrog in Moria, and Gandalf (Olorin) would presumably still be able to change physical form upon his return to Aman, I would say that Gandalf was more powerful. The Istari were probably more powerful than Balrogs, since Balrogs went under the dominion of Morgoth long ago.

[Eggy]

They are all good points but did Gandalf not "die" (i know he didnt really die) from the wounds inflicted by the Balrog upon his mortal body? Did Morgoth not create the Balrogs??

[Sharkû]

Gandalf, under his limitations of one way or another, was able to defeat a Balrog; Gandalf the White, having discarded said boundaries, was conclusively on par or more powerful than Sauron. So I guess we could say he was of a higher order, although Balrogs were quite powerful indeed. I cannot say whether they were unambiguously less than Sauron or not, but presumably so.
Bear in mind that Morgoth cannot create anything of his own. He merely 'corrupted Balrogs to his service', but they were there before.

[lore_master]

right, but BALROGS were not there, they were just Miar, who were corrupted and made to look like they do now

[Phervasaion]

I always think Gandalf was more powerful because, either way, Gandalf still managed to defeat the Balrog before he actually fell. So in my opinion Gandalf won the battle. Lore_master you are right about the Miar as i have recently read the Silmarilion book, the Balrogs only existed when they betrayed the Ainur (valar) and went to Morgoth. The Balrog being the corrupted form of the Miar.

[Earendilyon]

Gnadalf and the Moria Balrog were of the same 'order': the were both Maiar. As Maiar were Ainur, they were both "Children of Eru's Thoughts". The Maiar were less powerfull Ainur, the Valar the more powerfull. Many Maiar were corrupted by Morgoth into his service. Mightiest of them was Sauron. Others became Balrogs, because they were already spirits of fire. Some say that Maiar also inhibited the Dragons.
In the end, Gandalf proved to be more powerfull than the Moria Balrog (affectionatly known as Harry, btw). I don't know whether Gandalf the White would be more powerfull than Sauron; he himself thinks he isn't. Besides that, he was not allowed to use his full power in Middle Earth. So, even if he were more powerfull than Sauron, he was not allowed to fight him face to face. He had to get the peoples of ME to stand up against Sauron and to try to defeat him.

[Eggy]

hey thanks lads that settled a really long debate...

[rudeboy]

Gandalf the White wasn't as powerful as Sauron, unless he had the ruling ring, and still then it would be close.

[Sharkû]

I suggest reading up on the topic of Gandalf's power in threads such as THIS ONE.

well there is one more thing to consider. Narya, the elven ring of fire. Gandalf is the barer of this ring. "I am a servant of the secret fire, weider of the flame of annor." The "flame of annor" is refering to narya. So it is posible that the Balrog was more powerfull. Why else would gandalf think it neccesary to mention his ring of power, of which he was secretly the barer? Well, unfortunately this confuses the issue more. I belive that "Gandalf the Grey" was of simmilar power to the balrog. However, when he returned as "Gandalf the White" he then had his full power and the ballrog would have been no match for him. Long story short, I think that Gandalf was more powerfull than the balrog.

[Eggy]

the whole "flame of annor" could have just been a boost to try and get the balrog to back down so that he wouldnt have to reveal his power.

But think about it if the Balrogs could defeat the Ungolant when she even made Morgoth afraid of her by he terrible size and strenght when the stole the light of the tree's then surely the balrogs are near the top of the food chain.

[lore_master]

right, but there were many balrogs confronting Ungoilant, and only one with gandalf. and when Gandlaf came back, i dont think he had the power which he would have back in valinor as one of the Miar.

[Eggy]

Then do you think the balrogs had the use of their full powers as miar when they were in ME??

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Then do you think the balrogs had the use of their full powers as miar when they were in ME??
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yes I belive they did. nowhere does it say that they did not. Also we must take into account that there would be nothing to stop them from useing there full power.
If anyone has a reason they would not be able to let me know. But I've never heard of one.

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and when Gandlaf came back, i dont think he had the power which he would have back in valinor as one of the Miar.
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Why not lore master? I don't recal reading that he didn't. Also I don't remember the quote but I recal reading a quote from one of the books that implied that he was much more powerful when he returned. Also he would have gained much power because his spirit gains wisdom with age and

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and each day was as long as a life age of the earth.
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though this quote may seem irelevent I think it gives weight to the argument that he would have gained wisdom and power during this time.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I would definitely have to say that Gandalf is of the higher order. If the Balrog were of the higher order then Gandalf might not defeated the one in Moria.

[Eowyn:Lady of Rohan]

I believe the Istari(Wizards) are higher than Balrogs. The Istari are like Guardian Angels in human form, while the Balrog was kept in the shadows of Moria.

[Morgoth the Great]

The Istari were more powerful in my opinion( [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Morgoth playing down Balrogs!) and this was shown in particular when Gandalf smote Durins Bane. The Istari also show their precidence in other places. They also have a lot more power within them than the Balrogs, for if i believe correctly, the Balrogs lost power when they were turned to balrgos, just as the orcs did when they were changed from Elves.

well there is one more thing to consider. Narya, the elven ring of fire. Gandalf is the barer of this ring. "I am a servant of the secret fire.........

I don't believe the Three received power through holding the Rings, they were given the Rings because of the power they already commanded. The Rings may have been a focus, but they were not a source of power.

Gandalf the White wasn't as powerful as Sauron, unless he had the ruling ring, and still then it would be close. Nor was Sauron as powerful without the Ring, else he would not have lost.

First off Morgoth has never created anything.

He only perverts Eru's creation.

And I believe a balrog is basically a perverted wizard, so they are on an equal plain.

Just as Orcs are perverted Elves
and Gollum is a perverted hobbit
and trolls are perverted Ents
and so forth

[pandora]

It is not an insignificant point that Gandalf had the Ring of Fire. I strongly suspect that without it he would have failed against the Balrog. Gandalf was the last of the Istari to arrive in ME and yet Cirdan, who did not apparently know before-hand that they were coming nor how many or even why they came, did not give the ring to any of the earlier arrivers, including the theoretical leader. That he gave the ring to Gandalf is, I think, another of those "hand of fate" moments; he was given the ring specifically because he would have failed without it.

On the physical level we know that a Balrog's body is hot. Certainly too hot for Gandalf's mortal body to withstand without any sort of armour. Surely Narya was what allowed him to physically approach the Balrog close enough to even try to fight it because, as we know, he was not its equal on the "magical" level: the first contact between them was on that level and left Gandalf visibly very shaken despite being only a momentary thing.

As to Gandalf the White; who knows? Certainly he was not Sauron's equal even without the One. Otherwise, why bother with the Quest and all? Why not simply grab a Palantir and directly overthrow Sauron? A lot of people would not have had to die.

So I think that Narya was another of those things that happen "by chance, as we say in Middle Earth".

[Eggy]

I had meant which were of the higher spirtual order, ie whom had the stronger spirits?

[pandora]

I had meant which were of the higher spirtual order, ie whom had the stronger spirits?

The balrog. Gandalf makes one attempt to directly challenge the balrog with magic and is almost knocked out by it; he does not try again. Since that's the only evidence about their spirit-strength I'd have to pick the balrog. Of course, Gandalf is more "spiritual" but that's obvious.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Why not simply grab a Palantir and directly overthrow Sauron? A lot of people would not have had to die.

I think it is because the Istari were supposed to be uniting the people of middle earth, and not fighting their batle for them. Gandalf was not 'allowed' to look into the palantir and overthrow sauron, because that was not the reason the Istari were in Middle Earth in the first place.
If Gandalf had looked into the palantir, he would have been a 'rebel', lke Saruman.
Not to say he COULD have looked into the plantir, only that he WOULD not, even if he could.

[pandora]

I think it is because the Istari were supposed to be uniting the people of middle earth, and not fighting their batle for them.

This is cart-before-the-horse thinking: the reason they were uniting people is because they were not powerful enough to overthrow Sauron themselves and their restricted use of magic and force was so that the uniting would be of the peoples' free wills and thus not an evil thing (as well as avoiding the damage it might cause). Otherwise the Valar are just playing a cynical game with the lives of the people of Middle-earth

[Sharkû]

I daresay my argument above is still valid. Of course Gandalf does not make a second attempt to challenge the Balrog -- he defeated him anyway. Pandora's very argument shows the flaw in her argumentation, or at least a blatant lack of differentiation: only because of their restrictions were the istari less in power. The fight between Gandalf and Durin's Bane is only a valid measurement if you bear that in mind. Conslusively, the stronger spirit arguably resided in Gandalf. See here for more about that.

[pandora]

The fight between Gandalf and Durin's Bane is only a valid measurement if you bear that in mind.

That's correct. The problem is that the question is a bit vauge: what is meant by "order". Both were Maia so in that sense equal; but within that obviously balrogs are lower as they have fallen to evil. So the question seems to boil down to who is stronger; ultimately Gandalf won but the thread led into the question of whether he won because the ring of fire helped overcome some of the limitations of his physical body, which I think is the case.

The question of which one was stronger if unencumbered by their bodies is moot; so we are reduced to discussing what happened "on the day" and that seems to indicate that Gandalf sans-ring would have failed. Which makes a better story too.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

not powerful enough to overthrow Sauron themselves

Are you saying that the Valar could not have ovethrown sauron? If they were powerful enough to overthrow Morgoth, I think they could overthrow sauron. And what why send the istari, if not to help overthrow morgoth?
If you are going to send some wizards to overthrow sauron, and they have not restrictions (you think I was cart-before-the-horse), then why not attack with your whole army? If you are trying to avoid a repeat of the war of wrath, then you have to put restictions on the maiar you send.
And if there were no restrictions, what was wrong with Saruman becoming a lord, if you will? I am assuming you also agree that what Saruman did was AGAINST what the valar wanted.

[Eggy]

I had meant "order" as i Maia but also whom where the stronger since both died id have to conclude that they were equal