Who marries whom?

[Kalimac]

Hello! First of all I just wanted to say thank you very, very much to everyone who replied on my "Hail and farewell" thread - I really appreciated all the good wishes (as did my new husband, when I showed it to him [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). Just got back yesterday from Spain and everything from wedding onwards went gloriously, but it's nice to be back in familiar surroundings (and getting over jetlag, sort of). And very nice to be playing around on the Downs again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

And now for my question, before the Barrow Wight starts frowning in my direction and shaking his head ominously. I'm not sure if this has been posted in its exact form before, if so, my apologies. I was curious, for obvious reasons, about how weddings were done in Middle Earth, specifically who has the power to marry people? There are two major weddings in ROTK; the wedding of Rose and Sam, and the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, but there's no description of the events themselves at all, let alone who officiated or even if there was an officiant. This is rather tied in with the "religion in ME" issue - there doesn't seem to have been any sort of organized religion or clergy who would fill this function. Possibly the hobbits did the equivalent of going to the Justice of the Peace (Mayor, some sort of officiant, though it's hard to see Will Whitfoot issuing licenses and cranking at people about getting blood tests done). That option doesn't work too well for Aragorn and Arwen though, unless Aragorn as ruler has the power to officiate himself, which would seem....odd.

One option I'd thought of was that maybe both weddings were done in the old Norse style (not totally unbelievable, considering Tolkien's interest in that general era). In those days, no officiant was considered necessary; witnesses were the important thing. If a couple stood in the church doorway and said vows to each other in the presence of witnesses, that was considered enough. I can see the hobbits doing this (if not in a church, in some special spot or other. It's easy to see Sam getting married under the new mallorn Party Tree, for example). As for Aragorn and Arwen...well, maybe Gandalf married them. Somehow it seems like Wizards would be able to do that sort of thing, though considering that there's only five of them (and only Gandalf and Radagast are both continuously accessible) it would hardly do if they were the ONLY ones who could...anyway.

Sorry about the longwindedness - just wondering if anyone else has ideas on this question? I've been considering it a lot (long flight back and all that) and nothing quite seemed right. Are there other options out there, or maybe Tolkien said something about it? Thanks!

Kalimac

[Raefindel]

Hi Kalimac! I missed you! So glad the wedding went well. How was Spain?


Nufaciel seems the most learned on engagement and wedding traditions in Middle Earth, at least Elven weddings. Are you out the Nufaciel?

So Glad you're back! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[Kalimac]

Wow, that was fast. Thank you, Gimli and Rae [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Yes, I was noticing that a lot of threads have gotten rather rainbow-like while I was gone. Cool, but think I'll wait a little before trying it, considering my usual luck with new stuff on computers.

Rae, Spain was gorgeous, especially Andalusia - hot, clear, olive trees and sunflower fields all over the place, that sort of thing. I'll PM you in a bit with details if you want, (just to avoid inflicting too much non-Tolkien stuff on everyone [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). Have to go, I'm actually being haled off to a bookstore now but will be back later this evening and will send PMs then.

BTW, Nuranar, are you out there? ME marital customs are under debate, please help [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Joy]

Welcome back Kalimac!!!!! Hope your wedding and honeymoon was all that you ever hoped it would be and more.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Kalimac -- Welcome back and congrats.!

You know I have a very distant memory in my head about hobbit weddings from the HoMe. I could swear I read somewhere that the families often kept their engagements "secret" and then, when it came time, they "ran off" and got married. I may have hallucinated this, but I'm pretty sure I read it, since it surprised me.

I'm too tired to check the books, but will try to do so later.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think Gandalf probably married Aragorn and Arwen, while there was an appointed minister to do it for others. Faramir and Eowyn might have been the same.

[Elenya]

Hey Kalimac!! Congrats!! You should come check out your party thread in Freestyle RPG!!

[Kalimac]

Elenya, I just did, and posted [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. (I wanted to earlier, but my computer went down for a while so while I was technically logged in here I wasn't able to read or do anything).

Weird, I totally forgot about Eowyn and Faramir - rather thoughtless of me. I can definitely see Gandalf marrying them, though since Eowyn is from Rohan, which is very Saxon, I also kind of like the idea of their making vows in front of witnesses in the approved Old England style. Depends on whether they went with the bride's or groom's customs, I guess. Somehow I have the feeling that Eowyn would prevail in that argument [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]...

[Birdland]

Child, you're right about the "secret ceremonies" of halflings. It's in "Return of the Shadow". In early drafts where Tolkien was noodling with the idea that Bingo/Frodo would be the son of Bilbo.

I think Tolkien was being lazy that day, or was bending waaaay too far over backwards in avoiding the subject of organized religious ceremony in M-E.

The old, pre-Christian, Anglo-Saxon customs of exchanging vows before witnesses sound like a viable option to me. I mean, why would the halflings run off to get married, when having a public ceremony would insure having a big party with lots of wedding gifts? Now THAT would be the way they do it in The Shire!

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Kalimac, I was looking for the room, but I couldn't find it (stupid me) so I'll say my part now:
Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm very happy for you, and I wish I could ask you questions and stuff about it, but Barrow-wight will get mad at me, but CONGRATULATIONS!!!! I hope you had the best time of your life! (now I got that Green Day song stuck in my head...)

[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

[Nimrodel]

If a couple stood in the church doorway and said vows to each other in the presence of witnesses, that was considered enough.

Boy! That sure sounds cheaper than a full-blown wedding!

Congratulations, Kalimac!

[Joy]

As for Faramir and Eowyn, it is stated in RotK that her brother Eomer, being King of Rohan, joined them together. It was simple, also done at the funeral of Theoden. It stated that he joined their hands together and presented them to the people as husband and wife (don't remember the exact words though.)

[Morai]

woah ,I never heard of weddings going on at the same place and time as funnerals!

[Raefindel]

Woah, Joy! I kinda remember the scene but I didn't realize that WAS their wedding! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Joy]

Hey, the only reason I remembered it was I read it last week! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Check the chapter "Many Partings."

[Kalimac]

Yes, I hadn't realized either that that was the wedding - haven't read the section for a while but remembered it as a sort of engagement announcement if anything. But it makes sense that Eomer would be able to marry them if anyone would. Odd to have a combination wedding/funeral - very Hamlet-like in some ways, Theoden's funeral baked meats coldly furnishing forth the marriage tables. Saves a good bit on the catering, though [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Child of the 7th Age]

Has anyone else found any information, perhaps in HoMe or elsewhere, on the weddings of hobbits and/or men in Middle-earth, beyond that mentioned already in this thread?

OK, I'll even push this one step further. Of the folk customs which actually exist (or used to exist) in our world, which do you think would fit in best in terms of a hobbit wedding. I am thinking of a folk custom such as 'hopping over a broom'. (I am talking about things that are fanciful speculation, with no literary basis in Tolkien.)

Yes, I will admit that I have an RPG character down in the Shire who is planning a wedding, and I am looking for ideas which are at least consistent with what we know of hobbits!

sharon

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

Jumping over a broom? ...ruh??

I wonder what the Old English wedding customs were. Beowulf-era. Bird might know. Bird??

Or... alternatively; since the Shire is otherwise modeled after Edwardian England, what were simple wedding ceremonies like in Tolkien's day?

We know what elvish wedding ceremonies were like, since Pengolodh told us via AElfwine.

I wonder... Tolkien always just said "wedded". It was as if he meant to leave it shadowy. He gave us a detailed description of Aragorn's coronation, but the wedding: nope. "Aragorn wedded Arwen Undomiel." Ta-daaa.

Should we follow suit, and just say, "After the brief ceremony..."?

[Meela]

i always imagined aragorn and arwen marrying in a stone style church. in ttt, in the futuristic bits, we see minas tirith (or i assumed it was). i thought of there being some sort of church like one of those buildings, or maybe just a grand hall or palace, where the wedding would take place. If anyone's seen the film First Knight, im probably thinking of Arthur and Guinevere's wedding.

[Kalimac]

Wow, I'd completely forgotten this thread. Spooky, now that we're not THAT far away from a one-year anniversary.

Child and Mark; for hobbits I'm guessing small ceremony, big reception - being such lovers of food it's really hard to see them passing up an opportunity for a feast. To reconcile this with Tolkien's "running away" comment (though I'm also inclined to think he was wimping out there a little bit) they might do the 19th century/Edwardian thing of being privately married in somebody's drawing-room while wearing the best clothes they happen to own. I have no idea who would officiate, since unlike Edwardian England there's no established Church, but possibly it would be the Mayor, or the patriarch of the family (or matriarch, if you prefer [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]).

What might tie in with "running away" would be if they did this and then went on a honeymoon afterwards, only having the major celebration after they got back as a welcome-home sort of thing. The trouble is that I have a really hard time imagining hobbits on any sort of wedding trip. Where would they *go*? If the residents of Brandy Hall are considered a bit, well, foreign, you get the feeling that honeymooning hobbits would pretty much be limited to Hobbiton itself and maybe a mile or two of fields beyond it. I believe that some Asian cultures, however, once had a tradition where the bride and groom were left by themselves for a week; they didn't go anywhere, but they had no social obligations and people did not call on them - it was to give them time to get used to each other without interruption. So maybe your hobbits could have a private wedding, go off to their new hole, and while they might still be seen around town their official entry into society as a married couple would come at the feast a week or two later.

As for Aragorn and Arwen - I'm still inclined to go with the Norse/Old English approach; no officiant, just lots of witnesses as they stand in some significant place or other (Pellenor Fields? Castle hall?) and make their vows to each other.