Tolkien: Evolutionist or Creationist?

[Lotessa]

This is a very contentious subject, so I thought I’d bring it up.
I’ve read that Arda was once flat but eventually evolved into a globe.
Also, according to Tolkien the history of Arda is actually a made-up account of our own world.

From one of Tolkien’s letters:

“I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my own feet on my own mother-earth for place."

Tolkien also says he created Middle-earth because there were hardly any English myths:

“I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own, not of the quality that I sought, and found in legend of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian and Finnish; but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff.”

Anyway, I want to know if Tolkien was an evolutionist or a creationist.
Please tell me what you think.

~Lotessa

[Imladris]

I don't know much about the history of Middle-earth, but I do not some stuff about Tolkien (I have also read the first chapter of the Silmarillion). Tolkien was a Catholic, which meant he believed the Bible to a certain extent and the Bible tells that the world was created. So, just from that, I'd venture to say that he was a Catholic. He also had Illuvitar create the world through song and I don't recall anything about evolution, etc. in the little snippets I've heard/read about Middle-earth's history. But this is just my uneducated opinion.

[Olorin_TLA]

Tolkien was a Catholic, yes, but not a literalist. Evolution doesn't contradict the existence of God, and Tolkien is open-minded enough to believe in it. In fact, in his Letters, he refers being fascinated by the relatively-new discoveries on the prehistoric world and its creatures; also, Hobbits were an "offshoot" of the human race, meaning they must have shrunk at some point through nature.

As for the song point...as far as I know, no myths start with "dna evolved over millions of years" so it's no surprise his doesn't. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

For the most part it sounds(from what I have gathered from the stories), like Tollken had a lot of evolutionist ideals, even for a catholic. Maybe he was a prophet in his own time.

[Bêthberry]

This link might be helpful in understanding the evolutionist/creationist debate. It presents the current Catholic position on evolution (but not, of course, Tolkien's): Catholic Encyclopedia on Evolution

One main passage reads:

This is the gist of the theory of evolution as a scientific hypothesis. It is in perfect agreement with the Christian conception of the universe, for Scripture does not tell us in what form the present species of plants and of animals were originally created by God.

Hope this link is helpful!

[Kalimac]

Thank you for the link, Bethberry - as a Catholic, I was just going to add that being a Catholic by no means precludes believing in evolution. Religions vary among themselves; some take more a creationist line and incorporate it into their doctrine, but Catholicism is not among them. So his religion would not really have had much bearing on his view of how the world was created exactly, except probably to think of it as a working of God.

[Eggy]

ok i could have miss understood this, but did not Eru "create" the vala, and didnt he create arda and create the first born (and second born).
If i remember right a Vala created the dwarfs because he was bored waiting for the first born,
and didnt Melkor create the dragons(and other evil spirits) from his own mallace.

in none of my readings of tolkien have i heard much, if anything ,about evolution only creation

[The Saucepan Man]

in none of my readings of tolkien have i heard much, if anything ,about evolution only creation

You are quite right, Eggy. Whatever his personal beliefs may have been (and I agree with others that religious faith and evolutionism are not necessarily mutually exclusive), his works certainly appear to be based upon creation rather than evolution.

Even this:

Hobbits were an "offshoot" of the human race, meaning they must have shrunk at some point through nature.

is not necessarily the case. As far as I am aware, there is nothing definitive in Tolkien's works to suggest that Hobbits evolved from Men, rather than simply awakening as a short sub-group of Men. Indeed, given the timescales involved, the latter seems to me to be far more likely.

[Bêthberry]

I think perhaps there is a semantic confusion working here. The title of the thread contrasted Evolutionist with Creationist. Creationist, with a capital letter, is an abstract noun which refers to someone who holds a specific theological perspective. The common noun 'creation' which Tolkien uses should not be assumed to refer to this theology; it has a different meaning.

[The Saucepan Man]

No semantic confusion here, Bb. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The point I am making is that, while I cannot speak to Tolkien's personal beliefs on this issue, his works certainly appear to have been written from a largely Creationist, rather than Evolutionist, standpoint.

[Bêthberry]

My apologies, Saucepan. I was replying to Eggy and then was interrupted, so I didn't see your post before I posted.

My concern was that one word, 'created' not be taken as evidence for the entire meaning of Creationism.

For the record, here's a link from the University of Syracuse on Evolution vs Creationism

I would think, given Creationism's literal interpretation of the Bible, and Tolkien's interest in mythological frameworks, his work would be less liable to show evidence of a literal interpretation of the Bible.

However, this is not a debate which interests me, so I will simply provide a few links and then observe from the sidelines.

Tally ho and so forth.

[The Saucepan Man]

I would think, given Creationism's literal interpretation of the Bible, and Tolkien's interest in mythological frameworks, his work would be less liable to show evidence of a literal interpretation of the Bible.

But a literal interpretation of the Bible suggests that Man was created by God rather than evolving from a lower form of life, which is precisely how the Silmarillion tells us Men (and Elves) were created.

[Kates Frodo Temp]

but did not Eru "create" the vala, and didnt he create arda and create the first born (and second born).

Precisely. If you carefully read Tolkien's account of the creation of Arda, you will find many similarities to the Bible creation story. Additionally, you may remember that in C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia Narnia was sung into being just as Tolkien's Arda. We can be sure that Lewis was a Creationist. Since they were friends, and, I believe, heavily influenced each other's work, does this not suggest that Tolkien had similar ideas when writing of the creation of Arda? He was, after all, a Catholic, and so would likely, thought not necessarily, have had Creationist ideas. None this proves Tolkien to be a Creationist, but doesn't most of the evidence point that way?

[kittiegirl]

Simple:Tolkien was a Christian, and he also converted C.S. Lewis to Christianity.
He believed in God, and although he created Eru in LOTR,he still believed in God, who is my God.

[Knight of Gondor]

It's no secret on this board that I am a born-again servant of the true King, Jesus Christ. But most of you don't know that I'm also interested in the issue of creation vs. evolution, so I might share some thoughts on it here.

First, I think it's obvious. Eru created the world. It's simple! I believe only a few thousand years took place after the creation of such a thing as time that passes (Before Valinor was darkened, there wasn't exactly "time" as we think of it passing now...I read it in the Lost Tales) and the events we all know the best, the beginning of the Fourth Age.

Evolution doesn't contradict the existence of God, and Tolkien is open-minded enough to believe in it.

I can't vouch for Tolkien's personal beliefs, but I would tend to think he would be Creationist, or at least Theistic Evolutionist (God instigated evolution). I can personally debate any person on this board who contends that God created Evolution, or that the world is as old as millions of years. This isn't the proper forum to do so, but drop me a PM, I'd absolutely love to talk to you about it!

[mark12_30]

Please refer to Letters 153 (page 195) for an introduction to Tolkien's useage of the word Creation.

For his attitude towards Eden I briefly quote letter 96, but I definitely recommend that those interested in this discussion read it in full:

Genesis is separated by we do not know how many sad exiled generations from the Fall, but certainly there was an Eden on this very unhappy earth.

He continues in this vein extensively.

Very interestingly, he also discusses the Millenium:

Still I think there will be a 'millenium', the prophesied thousand-year rule of the saints...

A fascinating Letter and one I highly recommend.

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[kittiegirl]

Yes, there WILL be a 1000 year reign of the saints.
In which Christ will build his eternal kingdom upon the earth which we now stand upon.
It will be the new Heaven, and if I'm correct, it will be called Zion by God.

[Sharkû]

Please bear in mind that this is a Tolkien board, and that the thread is appropriately named. In other words, there is no point in posting your own beliefs.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think that Tolkien was a creationist. I mean look Christianity and Middle Earth have similiar things. Like there is the One, the Creator, in Middle Earth you have Eru, the Valar who are like archangels and then the Maiar who are like the angels, and in our world you have God his archangels and angels. So I that is what I base my opinion on.

[Helín Anyára]

For the most part it sounds(from what I have gathered from the stories), like Tollken had a lot of evolutionist ideals, even for a catholic.

I would disagree. To what, specifically, are you referring?

Tolkien was a Catholic, yes, but he was also a Theist, as was C.S. Lewis— and a fundamental Theistic belief is in the literalness (yes that is a word [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) of the Bible. The Bible says the world was created, and I think that if you read the Bible openly, and take it for its literal meaning (a word study of the Hebrew would only reinforce this), most would come to the conclusion that claiming to believe in the Bible does, indeed, preclude evolutionism.

But whether we like it or not, everyone interprets what they read with their own bias. If you are seeking to prove that Tolkien upheld evolution, and patterned his works after that belief, then that is what you will inevitably see when you read his writings. If you believe that he was indeed a Theistic Catholic believer, then his books and letters will be interpreted accordingly. If you are unsure, I suggest you simply read things for what they are, and do not tailor them to fit any preconcieved conclusions...

Sorry. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I'm quite talented in the art of babbling, if I let myself get started... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[mark12_30]

Helín Anyára mentions reading the Letters, and I'd like to reinforce that idea. Why speculate on Tolkien's beliefs when he did in fact leave us a collection of quite personal letters in which he extensively discussed those beliefs with his sons, his friends, and with curious admirers of his work?

The letters may not be readily available in smaller bookstores. I found my copy in a large Barnes and Noble. These days a good-sized bookstore should have it or be willing to order it for you. And failing that, there's always Amazon. They are simply titled "The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien".

If you are serious about Tolkien and you do not already have this book, I would very highly recommend obtaining a copy.

[The Only Real Estel]

I have always heard that Tolkien was a devout Christian (some say Catholic), who do not believe in evolution. I'd say that would answer the question, but it'd probably be best to follow Mark 12_30's post :/.

[davem]

To bring this back to Tolkien...

I'd say the Elves are not 'evolutionists'. Their natural state is backward looking - they look back to an ideal past, so any change will, to them, be 'devolution', as it is a move away from a more perfect state to a less perfect one. Flieger makes the point that they feel they are being pushed 'backwards' into the future, further & further from the place they want to be. Men, on the other hand, seem to be, psychologically at least, evolutionists, in that they see themselves as moving forward, creating a 'better' world, improving things.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

It is impossible to reconcile the Valaquenta with evolutionism. Tolkien was a creationist. And, for the record, his view is actually a scientific one.

[yavanna II]

i think good old JRRT was an evolutionist. look at it. he mixed up all my known myths: greek, scandinavian, egyptian, biblical(this isn't a myth for me).

[pandora]

There is no way in which you could really determine that Tolkien was an evolutionist, a creationist, an athiest or a Christian from his ME material. The most you could say would be that he shared what might be called the Christian Philosophy, but that is shared by many religions and humanists alike.

When someone sits down to invent an explanation of how a world, real or imagined, came to exist creationism appears almost automatically with the introduction of gods. This is because almost the only function of a god is creation: they make the world, storms, volcanoes, earthquakes etc. Very few mythologies manage without gods at all.

Since all religions have to be made up by someone somewhere it's not surprising that they mostly look like the ones made up by authors in modern times. Given that the person writing the book/myths is aware of the fact that they are creating the world (or the model of the world) it's probably inevitable that they transfer that very function onto one of the gods in the story, whether it's Eru, Jehova, Zeus, Ptah or whatever since that "completes the circle" and makes the world self-contained.

Interestingly, some mythologies have an evolutionary inital period before the creationism bit sets in. So, for example, Ymir condenses when warm, moist air from Muspell met the mist from Niflheim on the ice of Ginnungagap. The giants and various other non-divine beings evolve out of Ymir until the birth of Odin and his brothers who then kill Ynir and create the world from his body. A similar evolution to creation switch appears in some greek creation stories too.

Jewish mythology grew out of the Middle Kingdom mythology of Egypt during the "Aten" period and carries many of its ideas: two gods, a male and a lesser female (the female is no longer worshipped but there are still a surprising number of references to her in the modern Bible), no sub-creation gods, and the classic Sumarian creation myth of a world created in six days with a rest afterwards.

Anyway: JRRT could have written all he did simply from the point of view of someone that believed in good and evil and the corruption of power etc. so long as they also happened to be a genius.

It's only the non-ME material that tells us that Tolkien was a Christian.

[mark12_30]

As in, his letters-- which make it quite clear he is a Christian-- and in which, I believe he disagrees with your statement...

[ 11:00 AM December 02, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]