How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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We all know that Imladris lies at the river Bruinen. Now to discover it, one would simply have to follow the river and eventually enter the valley. How come none of Sauron's servants had come to that idea?

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> , <a href = "http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/">Mount Gundabad</A>, http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbagend16025/bag end</a> and <a href=http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscamp/>dunedains camp</a>,where I'm an RPG moderator
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[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

First: as mentioned in another thread, the river that ran alongside Imladris was not Bruinen.

Second: may I ask what gives you the impression Rivendells' location wasn't already known to Sauron?

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[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

The location was probably known. But Elrond wore a Ring of Power himself. And unless Sauron had his Ring, an assault on Rivendell would end in failure(just as the three assaults on Lothlorien were).


One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to Find them. One Ring to Bring them all and in the Darkness bind them.</br>
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[gamegie]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

I agree with Reese, Sauron probably knew where Rivendell lay, but he also knew that dwelt there elfs with great power, such as Elrond and Glorfindel.

Remember the passage at the ford when even the ringwraiths are scared of Glorfindel and Aragorn. These elfs detained too much power for Sauron to just enter or attack Rivendell, as well as being too far away from Mordor to mount any sizeable attack on it.

So speaks me, and my shadow.....

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[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

Oh Sauron knew alright.

I was asking the person as to WHY he believed otherwise, so as to assisst in whatever area was causing the mis-understanding. I have no idea how much material this person has read, and was going to point out areas to re-read (depending on availability of books).

i.e. if only read LOTR; then blah blah blah
if UT has been read; then additional blah blah blah
if sections of HOME; then even more blah blah blah.

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[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

I have just read the thread about Ut and HoME, and I see now that the Bruinen isn't flowing next to imladris. I haven't read UT nor HoME,so I couldn't know that. Anyway, Sauron could still do a lot of small nasty things to **** the elves off: destroy the bridge, setting the woods on fire,...

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> , <a href = "http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/">Mount Gundabad</A>, http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbagend16025/bag end</a> and <a href=http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscamp/>dunedains camp</a>,where I'm an RPG moderator
Please visit < a href="http://www.elendor.net">elendor</a>, the best ME MUSH around! "Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
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[Zoe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How come Rivendell was never discovered by Sauron?

But why would he bother? Sure, he hated the elves and everything, but wouldn't it be better to organise one big attack on Rivendell? (Which, as has already been stated, would be impossible without the Ring.) Elves don't seem to me to be the type which you'd bother with trying to **** off.

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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Rivendell

Why would he bother?

He could definately bother because that is where Elrond resides with one of the three rings. And however powerful elfs are Sauron is not bad himself.

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[Grey Fool]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Sauron's wit

Unlike me, Sauron was no fool, except in the respect that he would hunt power to the detriment of all other
concerns. There is no way that he would have wasted time 'attacking' the last homely house in an attempt to obtain Elrond's ring, as he would have known that Elrond the Immortal was never to be underestimated. Had such an offensive been launched, Elrond would have been wqell aware of it before any creature of malign intent had entered the valley of Rivendell, and Sauron knew he would have been thus thwarted. I feel certain that Elrond would have rid himself of his ring for good in order to prevent Sauron getting it, or at least he would have taken measures to ensure its' safety.
And Sauron knew all too well about Imladris.
After all, rhymes reach far and wide:

&quot;Seek for the sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
STRONGER THAN MORGUL SPELLS...&quot;


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[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Sauron's Plans

A bit tardy by now, Grey Fool, but welcome to the board!

With reference to the subject of this thread, I just read a bit in UT, in &quot;The Quest of Erebor&quot;, where Gandalf hints that Sauron, while still &quot;disguised&quot; as The Necromancer of Dol Goldur, may have been planning a stroke against Rivendell and other desirable northern objectives, possibly with the aid of Smaug as some kind of super-weapon, but that any aspirations he may have had in this area were dashed by the unexpected death of the dragon and the attack of the White Council which forced him to retreat to Mordor.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gandalf: &quot;You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

It may well have been that Sauron's plans for Rivendell had as their prime objective the capture of Elrond's ring; I imagine that he hoped at the least to take it out of play for the coming war (he'd fairly recently gobbled up the last of the Dwarven rings, remember).

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[Zoe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Why bother?

My &quot;why bother?&quot; was referring to Sauron trying to annoy the elves in Rivendell, without actually doing any major harm. I can see him trying to get Elrond's ring out of the way, though.

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re.

Hi all,

I belive in UT like ^ said that Sauron was planning to attack Elrond that is why Gandalf undertook the quest with Bilbo and the gang.

Gandalfs purpose was that the Dwarves should retake thier city and then the way to Elrond would be blocked.
<img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
Please correct me if I'm wrong


Lothwen

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[rudeboy]

An attack on Rivendell would not have been pointless without the One ring! In FotR Gandalf says to Frodo about returning back to Rivendell would be to admit defeat, "Sooner or later Rivendell will be besieged and after a brief and bitter time be destroyed!"

[Morgoth the Great]

Sauron knew, of course he did. and he was actually moving down towards it. He was coming from the north, from Angmar with his Nazgul and some orcs. This was long before the real war of the ring began, but Glorfindel fought them back(not only him, but he commanded the host) Fornost was taken by the Nazgul in 1974. The forces then went south, but were beaten back by Cirdan's and Glorfindel's men. Sauron then abandoned attacking Rivendell as an original objective, and instead decided to take out the much weaker targer: Gondor. I believe it is Gandalf who states that Rivendell is safe until all else falls. just my thoughts on the matter [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lost One]

At the time of the arrival of Elendid and his followers in Middle-earth, wasn't Rivendell under sustained siege and likely to fall?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

At the time when Elendil washed up on the Lune and then subsequently established the Northern Kingdom of Exiles – Arnor – with its capital at Annúminas, Sauron had been in Númenor for several years. It had been centuries since Sauron had threatened the upper NW areas, when Imladris was besieged, not long after being (first?) founded by refugees from Eregion, under the leadership of Elrond (already bearer of Vilya), as well as Celeborn. During the War of the Elves and Sauron, due to decisive intervention of the Númenóreans, Sauron's forces were defeated at the crossings of Sarn Ford and what was later Tharbad. Elrond and his forces simultaneously liberated Imladris, which Sauron did not directly trouble again, although he remained well aware of it and its basic location, but also appreciated how difficult it was to defeat militarily.

He hated Elrond above all others, to be sure.

During the Third Age, generations before the fall of Fornost, the forces of Angmar had besieged Rivendell for 50 years. Again, even with significant military presence at hand, it could not be taken. Lack of detailed intelligence about the lay of the land might have worked against the forces of evil, but they were generally well aware of where Rivendell lay.

I think it might be compared to Nargothrond of the First Age, in that its location was not unknown, but the Elves guarded against anyone's getting to close to effectively do much through stealth and stratagem. Lothlórien and the Woodland Realm not doubt employed similar tactics, but Elrond likely had all sorts of ways to sense and counter not only the probes and sorties of those that would hostilly seek out his refuge, but also low-profile espionage, even as it was welcoming to many travelers with the right connections.

The people of Rivendell probably numbered in the hundreds at least. And besides the powers of Elrond (w/ & w/o Vilya) and Glorfindel, they were as capable defenders as any left in ME. They did not all, of course, live in the Last Homely House. Some had to be engaged in working the surrounding lands, to supply perishable foodstuff and so forth, which may have involved nearby hamlets of friendly men, too, who could also help with defense. And they may have had a remnant of the final Rhudaurian Dúnedain at the time of the Angmar siege.

Toward, the end of the Second Age, Gil-Galad had extended and solidified his realm and power, and indeed the Elves were quite strong under their last king by that point. It is this Elven Kingship that I feel best explains the name "Eriador," which I consider inclusive of Lindon. The Kingdom of Arnor was set up in the midst of this loosely defined and not well-populated realm. Gil-Galad should have been recognized then as a sort of overlord.

[Finwe]

*applauds Man-of-the-Wold's post*


Sauron most definitely knew the location of Imladris. After the forging of the Rings of Power, and after the "Rebellion" of Celebrimbor, Sauron led a mighty army to conquer all of Middle-earth. He swept through Eriador with fire and sword, completely destroying the land, and laid siege to Ost-in-Edhil, the capital of Eregion. His forces overran the city, and Celebrimbor was taken at the last, desperately defending the main treasury of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. Sauron tortured Celebrimbor so that he would reveal the location of the Rings of Power, but that brave Elf only told him the location of the Rings of Men and the Rings of the Dwarves. The Rings that he loved the most, the Three Elven Rings, he still kept safe. Sauron grew frustrated, and killed Celebrimbor, and used his body, shot through with Orc arrows, as his banner.

Sauron then turned his attentions to all of Eriador. He marched over the land, with destruction, fires, murders, and oppression as his vanguard and total devastation as his lieutenant. When he made it to the middle of Eriador, he dispatched a mighty force to Rivendell, to keep Elrond cornered, and possibly try to take Rivendell. Elrond, however, held out desperately and Rivendell was safe for the moment. Sauron turned West, and marched to Lindon. There, the Elves, led by Gil-galad and Cirdan, desperately held the River Lhun, in last defence of the Grey Havens. If those were lost, then all hope for the Elves would also be lost. The Elves did not stand much of a chance against Sauron's overwhelmning army. Just then, though, the Numenorean navy, sent by Tar-Minastir, entered the harbor, with banners flying, guns blazing (figurative), and swords at the ready. The doughty Numenoreans leapt off their ships, and together with the Elves, drove Sauron back. They chased him all the way back to Mordor, and all that was left of his mighty army was a small amount of guards that he managed to flee to Mordor with. The Elves and Numenoreans then turned to Rivendell, and helped Elrond massacre the remnant of Sauron's army.

What this shows is, Sauron's mind was constantly on Rivendell, because he had guessed that the Elven Rings had been "committed to Elvish guardians (Gil-galad and Galadriel)." Since Elrond was Gil-galad's viceregent, and very close to him, Sauron probably guessed at the truth. He knew where Imladris was, he just didn't have the manpower to go capture it. In the Third Age, Sauron could have probably taken Imladris, if Smaug had been allowed to live. There isn't much you can do about a dragon, unless you're Earendil, and Elrond wasn't his father. Gandalf knew that, and that was why he made sure that Smaug had been "bumped off." That manpower was absolutely necessary to get all the way to Imladris, from Mordor, and still deal with all the mighty Elves who lived there.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

"Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted -- because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth." - Gandalf, to Frodo and Gimli; The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (italics added)