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02-07-2003, 09:44 AM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
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Music of the Ainur: Rap? Country? Opera?
I don't think we have any information on the question as phrased above.
What I'm wondering is, for those of you own the Letters or other biographical material, what do we know about Tolkien's taste/background in music? Clearly music has an important role in Tolkien's work, both as a forshadowing or metaphor for creation (Music of the Ainur) but also the many songs/lays of LOTR and The Silmarillion which are not, strictly speaking, integral to the plot. Did Tolkien play an instrument? Sing in a choir? Attend symphony or opera regularly? Was it his exposure to the Finnish Kevala (mythology set to music if I recall) that influenced the central role of music in his writings? Does he ever express his tastes in music or what music means to him personally? |
02-07-2003, 10:03 AM | #2 |
Haunting Spirit
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According to his son Christopher and Biographer Bradley J Zirzer, he like classical music. He had paintings of mozart on the walls in his study and also like Bach and a bit of Beethoven. This is all we know, hope that helps.
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02-07-2003, 10:06 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Tolkien was known to be a avid Tupac fan. He felt that his lyrics really reached out to him.
Seriously, I excpect J.R.R to have listned to some classicla/Orchestral music, and I think I remember that Tolkien described the music of the Ainur to be like a orchestra-except better.
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02-07-2003, 10:53 AM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Classical/ orchestral, Yes! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (IMO) All those different themes, intertwining and playing off of each other, in unfathomable complexity. (this reminds me of living beings, and how the body systems work together) I would like to ask a naive question at this point! Did the three themes represent different "ages"? (perhaps?) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] and the final "chord"....the end of time??? Who?...what...?? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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02-07-2003, 02:30 PM | #5 |
Wight
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I dont think so, lotr was set in the 3rd age of the sun, there was also the ages of lamps, trees and stars
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02-07-2003, 02:45 PM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote from J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography by Humphrey Carpenter
Quote:
T.G.
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02-07-2003, 05:53 PM | #7 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I imagine the Ainur's music to be more like medieval choral music, Gregorian chant or something, perhaps with some strings to flesh it out.
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02-07-2003, 06:39 PM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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That's a very interesting quote, TolkienGurl!
Certainly it foreshadows Tolkien's future vocation as a linguistics professor, whose hobby was inventing his own languages. It's kind of surprising that, at least at the time, he wasn't much interested in music. I'm tempted to speculate that perhaps his greater love of music later in his life might have had something to do with associating it with his mother, after she had passed away. But that's purely speculative on my part. I personally would envision the Music of the Ainur as a very elaborate choral work, since the book does say that they actually sang, rather than played instruments. Of course maybe their voices sounded like instruments. Varda: harp? Tulkas: tuba? Melkor: electric guitar (or microphone) with lots of feedback? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Thanks to everyone for their good information and insights! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
02-08-2003, 03:41 AM | #9 | |
Delver in the Deep
Join Date: Dec 2002
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We already know what Durin's Bane the Balrog played:
Quote:
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02-08-2003, 01:56 PM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Wasn't it the Orcs playing the drums in Moria?
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02-08-2003, 02:44 PM | #11 | |
Cornus Caliga
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I always thought the drums were supposed to be the footfalls of the balrog in Moria, but then there was this passage:
Quote:
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02-08-2003, 02:48 PM | #12 |
Master of the Secret Fire
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I always imagined there to be little drummer-orcs.
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02-09-2003, 08:11 AM | #13 | |
Seeker of the Straight Path
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Great topic Angry Hill troll!
From the War of the Jewels [HoM-E 11]we have one of my very favorite uses of language by JRRT. It also happens to be on the language of the Valar. It does not directly refer to music but it palinly gives an intimation as to how their voices could have conveyed music, especially the Music of the Ainur. The speaker is Pengolodh citing a 'saying' of Rumil: Quote:
So if one can wed the above idea of their speach with an image of their singing in said fashion, perhaps one can come abit closer to hearing the Music of the Ainur. [ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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02-09-2003, 09:35 PM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well then the music is wind through the trees, light on water, the sound of a waterfall. the sound of rain.....
Actually, when I think of the music of the Ainur, I think fo something like Johann Pachelbel's Canon in D. Where the music weaves in and out and around in differnt little flows, and whirls, and tunes.
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02-10-2003, 12:25 AM | #15 | |
Seeker of the Straight Path
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Quote:
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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02-10-2003, 03:44 PM | #16 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2002
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From Ainuluindale:
Quote:
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02-16-2003, 02:30 AM | #17 |
Animated Skeleton
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i think, somehow, that the music of the ainur would not necessarily be classical; there is modern music that to me can be just as beautiful. i think, then, that it would be a mixture of all the music that is special to me and anyone because you have to picture (hum) however his words are to you. for me its a mixture of: the four seasons, beethoven, pink floyd, bolero, carmina burana, metallica + so many others.
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02-16-2003, 10:01 AM | #18 |
Haunting Spirit
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Hey, it's Kalevala, not Kevala :P
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02-16-2003, 10:44 AM | #19 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
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Quote:
Quote:
More seriously, the description of Valarin and its musicality strongly echoes the quote that TolkienGurl posted above about how words were Tolkien's music. |
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02-16-2003, 02:38 PM | #20 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Arwen, somewhere up there, is correct...
Quote:
Hill Troll's comment about Melkor and the guitar rocked(withour the static)
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02-21-2003, 05:37 PM | #21 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I imagined the music of Ainor as a symphany. All the parts working together to make one beautiful masterpiece.
Anyone else notice how Eru even used Melkor in the melody. He incorperated it into the music and made the music even more beautiful. Personally I think music sounds a lot better when you have a bit of discord that is resolved at the end. This makes me think of poetry. musicmade of words.
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02-21-2003, 05:56 PM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I thought Melkor made the music worse! ?? So what is the point/ meaning of the three themes.
Start...bad noise (thank-you Melkor)...new theme. Bad Melkor sound agin, (even worse than before)....Melkor actually takes over....sorry!! Iluvatar sternly gestures for a third and different theme, and it grows and takes power and now there are two themes playing simultaniously, conflicting, (elves and men?) Then, a grim faced Iluvatar stops it all in one all encompassing chord. Ok, What does this mean!!! ( Is this shame that Melkor felt, the fuel that fires ALL of the anger?) Thoughts? opinions? ( once again, this might be a naive question, but isn't it all about the music? ) [ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]
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02-21-2003, 07:39 PM | #23 |
Cornus Caliga
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I always interpreted it as the three "über-ages (empires, reiches, whatever you want to call it" of Éa- the shaping and undoing repeated three times up to the silencing of everything and demise of the earth. I could be way off, but it's just my inference.
As for the clash of Melkor and Eru, this is what I think: Beginning of theme- Purity and innocence of the world and its people Melkor and Iluvatar clash- Evil enters the world Melkor's theme grows and overtakes Iluvatar's- Battle between good and evil. Evil gradually grows and leads to the undoing of the music's beauty and the overthrow of good.
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02-25-2003, 10:35 AM | #24 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gondolin, Middle Earth
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You are right Melkor tries to make his own music to bring his own desires into the theme. He contends against Eru with the music. The discor grows then Eru starts a new theme, but Melkor's music grows louder and drowns out Eru's music. Then Eru starts a third theme. This theme starts softly and sorrowfully but Melkor can not drowned it out. It just keeps growing and growing. Melkor's music sounds "vain and endlessly repeated" and the most triumphant notes in Melkors music are taken and woven into the other music's pattern then Eru raises his hands high and there is one chord "deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar." and the music stops.
It says in the Silm that at the end the Ainor will again play there music and it will sound even more beautiful because each one shall know his part.
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02-27-2003, 12:30 PM | #25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I have always imagined the Music of the Ainur to be figurative, more like a gathering of colors and sounds, swirling through and around each other, which would make up something of inimaginable beauty. I don't know, really.
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03-02-2003, 03:24 PM | #26 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Just a quick thought. I wonder if the Music was made with voices, musical intruments, colors, just words? what do you think. It's really hard to decide which I think. whatever mood I'm in changes how I think the music would sound.
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