The source of Dragons

[Gurthang]

When did dragons first come into Middle Earth. I know Glaurung was the father of dragons, but where did he come from. I've heard that Morgoth created them, but I don't think that is right. Does anyone have any idea what the truth is?

[One Axe to Rule them All]

I'm pretty sure it was Morgoth, but i'm interested to see if anybody else has a different answer.

[samrohan]

We have established that Glaurung was the father of dragons, but surely there should have been a female dragon to start the species with Glaurung.
Is it Morgoth, I am not sure but he must have created at least a couple of them to get the ball rolling.
And where does Smaug come in?

[Måns]

I do not know the answer of this and will not try to speculate. I can say though that they were probably not created by Morgoth, because they ahd a capability of breeding, obviously. Morgoth could not give life, nor the ability to reproduce. He is said to have created great monsters of fire and steel for attacking Gondolin, though.

Måns

[Burzdol]

Do the books say anything about the Mother of all Dragons? I think that question has the same importance. Both of those questions are really contriversal.

Burzdol

[Cathelm]

Tolkien left out a lot of stuff (which is partly why this forum is here!) Nonetheless, it would be nice to know. About Smaug, I think he was one of the lesser dragons that raviged the country in the third age and fled to the east at the destruction of Morgoth's realm. And maybe Morgoth did create the dragons; Glaurung would've been given the title of 'Father', being the first, and the rest could've been created over time. That would explain why there's no females (sexist dark lord!).
Does anyone even know if the dragons did or could produce?
As usual, there is no proof (I think) that this theory is true. Any other guesses?

[One Axe to Rule them All]

I just got this off the main page, it ought to answer some questions.


"Dragons, the archetypical monster and supernatural creature of most mythologies of mankind, also have their place in Tolkien's Middle-Earth.
Often also named drakes (Old English), worms or wyrms there, dragons in Middle-Earth, are, however, exclusively evil creatures; created or bred by Morgoth, the primeval Dark Lord, in the pits of Angband in the First Age. What their true nature is, and what spirits inhibit them, is still a point of uncertainty, and much debate (as a look on the forum topics on dragons quickly reveals).
All dragons were huge and fierce, and possessed from the beginning a great evil cunning, and they could speak with enchanting voices. The first of them that was released upon the unsuspecting Elves in the Dagor Bragollach, appropriately called the Battle of Sudden Flame, was Glaurung the Golden, father of the Dragons: he was clad in thick scales, and might be imagined to have looked like a huge long lizard on four mighty legs, laying lands to waste with his fiery breath. Later, in the War of Wrath, Morgoth let loose the first flying dragons upon his enemies, of which Ancalagon the Black was the greatest.

The few dragons who survived the War of Wrath and the downfall of Morgoth and his stronghold, removed to scarcely inhabitated regions in the north and north-east of Middle-Earth. The Withering Heath in the eastern Grey Mountains was from then on ever a dangerous region as great dragons still prowled there.
However, with Morgoth gone, they were no longer under anyone's control, as Sauron never mustered the strength to command those mightiest of Morgoth's creations.
Therefore, the dragons used to take abodes of their own, devastating dwellings of the free peoples, and gathering about them great hoards of riches; Scatha, who was slain by Fram, a Northman, and Smaug, the dragon in The Hobbit, both possessed great treasures robbed from the dwarves.

Most we know about dragons is handed down in the stories of a few individual specimen and their slayers.
Glaurung the great Worm of Angband was inevitably and fatally tied to the doom of Túrin Turambar; in a way it was him that carried out the curse of Morgoth. At the Dagor Bragollach, he was not come to full growth yet, and could be warded off by the doughty dwarves. Later, however, when Túrin was staying in Nargothrond, Glaurung devastated it, by then already virtually the captain of Morgoth's troops, and the enchanting glare of his maliciously intelligent eyes created the dreadful fate of Túrin to abandon Finduilas and marry his own sister. When he went to seek Túrin again, Glaurung was slain by him upon crossing a gorge, being stabbed by Túrin's sword into his unprotected belly (a characteristic of most dragons, it seems); but not without revealing Túrin's many errors before passing away.

Ancalagon the Black was said to have been the greatest of the winged dragons, and was released unto the foes of Angband in the War of Wrath. Eärendil, bearing the Silmaril, and accompanied by the great eagles, slew him in his airborne ship.

Smaug was the dragon who expelled the dwarves, among them Thorin Oakenshield, from their kingdom under the Lonely Mountain Erebor.In the great adventure of Bilbo Baggins, Gandalf and the party of dwarves under Thorin, he proved to be a cunning foe, and terrible enemy, as he, roused by the dwarves, descended unto the nearby Laketown, incinerating it, but in turn being slain by Bard the Bowman, who found the only weak spot on the dragon's jewel-protected belly.

The battle prowess, supernatural abilities, and malicious intelligence made dragons most formidable opponents, against whom the group tactics applied by Elves and dwarves availed little except keeping them at bay for a while. In order to slay a dragon in Middle-Earth, it needed a wretched hero, bound to and chosen by fate, armed with a legacy, magic weaponry and not seldom a fey spirit, who would face the beast alone, often meeting his own doom in the encounter."

To put it short, Morgoth created Dragons in Mockery of the Eagles. Just as Orcs were to Elves, and Trolls were to Ents.

[Gorwingel]

Does this mean that (like the orcs) Morgoth took an exsisting species and tortured it until it turned evil and it had changed?

Maybe Glaurung originally was an Eagle [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] that had been tortured

Or am I completely wrong

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How big were the biggest Eagles? At least I don't think Gwaihir was Dragon sized anyway. They could have got smaller with the years though.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hello Imsirion. Welcome to the Downs. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

To put it short, Morgoth created Dragons in Mockery of the Eagles.

Do you have a source for this? It is not a theory that I have ever heard. If true, I would have thought that Dragons would have been winged from the start, whereas the father of Dragons, the marvellously malevolent Glaurung, was of course wingless.

Just as Orcs were to Elves, and Trolls were to Ents.

Careful! Don't say that when Nils is around. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Seriously, there are a number of theories of Orcish origin, and Tolkien apparently moved away from the Elvish origin theory in later years (although I myself still prefer it). As for Trolls, we only have Treebeards word for that don't we?

Thanks, One Axe, for posting the Downs' own Encyclopedia entry for Dragons.

Often also named drakes (Old English), worms or wyrms there, dragons in Middle-Earth, are, however, exclusively evil creatures; created or bred by Morgoth

Well it seems settled that Dragons were created by Morgoth, although I would be interested in knowing whether there a definitive source for this, and if so what it is. I strongly suspect that there is, but that I have never come across (or missed) it.

As to how Morgoth came to create Dragons, this is, as some have already said, a matter of pure speculation. My own theory is that they originated from large reptilian beasts which originally inhabited Arda (similar to dinosuars). Morgoth imbued these beats with disembodied spirits (Elves, or possibly Maia), thus giving them awareness and intelligence, and proceeded to breed them for certain characteristics (resulting, ultimately, in the winged variety).

The fact that Dragons were created by Morgoth does not preclude them breeding amongst themselves, assuming that there were females as well as the males that we hear of. Orcs, I believe bred amongst themselves. Assuming my theory above is correct, there is no reason why female Dragons should not have existed, since the original beasts from which they were created would have been both male and female.

The fact that Smaug is said to be one of the last of the Dragons does, however, suggest that there were no longer any breeding pairs by the late Third Age, even if there were before. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Perhaps all the females were destroyed in the War of Wrath.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Well it seems settled that Dragons were created by Morgoth, although I would be interested in knowing whether there a definitive source for this, and if so what it is. I strongly suspect that there is, but that I have never come across (or missed) it.

I haven't find it either, mostly it is mentioned that the first one, Glaurung, was first seen in 265 in the first age, coming from Angband. Does this proove him created by Morgoth? You could assume this, but you can't be absolutely certain about it.

I have a question concerning Glaurung: when he was first seen, he wasn't fully grown.
So, if Morgoth "made" him, how so? Did he grow a little one, did he came out of an egg? Maybe this sounds ridiculous, and I'm sorry if it does, but I'm really wondering.

Because it seems to me that al the other evil creatures that were created by Morgoth or Sauron, did not go through the process of growing up. Any thoughts?

[Måns]

I would have to mildly disagree with the lower part of your post, the apart about creation. I do not believe that anything that has not got life can breed since it is indeed one of the conditions to be said to be alive. The reason that they could have no life if creatd by Morgoth is quite clear since he did not have the power to create a new specie, nor did Manwë or any Valar as is amde clear in the Silmarillion: OF Aulë and the Dwarves. Life is the special gift, given by Illuvatar to all his children, Ainur, Elves, Men and later Dwarves. Orcs were not created by Morgoth, there ared two theories put forth by Tolkien, the first is the one written in the Silmarillion, that htey were corrupted elves. This does obviosuly not it in with the versions of elvish "Life" in HoME that say taht they do not increase in numbers. Also, there is the thought that they were bred from maiar:

It seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense?
What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?
In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) become more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted and converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
But Finrod probably went too far in his assertion that Melkor could not wholly corrupt any work of Eru. It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.
The wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-cooperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).

My theory would not be going as far as stating dinosaurs but in theory, yes I agree. There were dark spirits roaming the lands of middle earth before time begun, they could be descendants of those or possibly perverted maiar, descendants fo such.

Måns

[One Axe to Rule them All]

Back to the subject of dragons breeding. I think Morgoth created dragons one by one, as you see, he kind of "Improved" his model as he went on, to upgrade them, see how he started with Glaurung and then made winged dragons later, as he needed them.

Not to mention, after the war of wrath, there were more dragons as said here

The few dragons who survived the War of Wrath and the downfall of Morgoth and his stronghold, removed to scarcely inhabitated regions in the north and north-east of Middle-Earth. The Withering Heath in the eastern Grey Mountains was from then on ever a dangerous region as great dragons still prowled there.

Here it says that the dragons that survived the war of wrath went to the north and northeast and lived there for a long time, so there must have been at least ten to fifteen dragons at least left to go on for survival.

It says that there are a small amount of dragons left alone for a few hundred (i'm just guessing here) years, don't you think they'd reproduce and become a great army again? I know most of you are thinking, "maybe they killed all the females" but if I was killing great dragons, i'm not gonna stop and check the
plumbing to find out if i've killed all the females.

Source? Treebeard said Morgoth created trolls in mockery of Ents. Thats even said in The Barrow wrights essay about Olog-hai. About Dragons, I swear I must have seen it somewhere on this site, its the only Tolkien site I go to.

[Gurthang]

Alright, from what I've read, and from my own knowledge of JRRT literature, I've thought up an interesting theory. Giant creatures(whose origin is unknown) were definitely present on the earth before Morgoth arrived. Ungoliant is an example of one of these mysterious creatures. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Therefore, he could have found great fire-breathing serpents in the far north(or wherever) and captured them for his own purposes. He then would have bred them in captivity to create a stronger, more useful breed.(One with wings for example) There is a record of him breeding other animals(the wolf-hound that was killed by Huan) for vile perposes. He could have quite easily done this with dragons, and since they came from nearly unreachable parts of the world, no one would have seen them until he released Glaurung in battle. I don't really see anything that wrong with this explanation, and I believe it could be true. But, it is still just a theory. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Falagar]

Source? Treebeard said Morgoth created trolls in mockery of Ents. Thats even said in The Barrow wrights essay about Olog-hai. About Dragons, I swear I must have seen it somewhere on this site, its the only Tolkien site I go to.

True, but what does mockery mean? As I have understood it, 'mock' doesn't mean 'created from', it means 'tease', 'make fun of' (bad words for it, I know, but I can't come up with anything better. The problem with not having english as a first language [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). Back to the dragons, I can't remember ever having read that they were created in mockery of eagles, and it doesn't seem very likely as the first dragons didn't have wings.

Back to the subject of dragons breeding. I think Morgoth created dragons one by one, as you see, he kind of "Improved" his model as he went on, to upgrade them, see how he started with Glaurung and then made winged dragons later, as he needed them.

For one thing, Morgoth didn't have the power to give life to anything, he corrupted things that already were. Thus, there must have been something alive that he could corrupt (my guess would be maiar). Second, dragons do indeed grow. As you may remember, Glaurong wasn't fully matured when the Dagor Bragolach started, one of the reasons why the attack didn't succeed. In the attack of Nargothrond, however, he was back (possibly in black) as the good ol' chap we all know (all this is taken from my own rusty memory only, have patience if some of it is wrong [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).

It says that there are a small amount of dragons left alone for a few hundred (i'm just guessing here) years, don't you think they'd reproduce and become a great army again? I know most of you are thinking, "maybe they killed all the females" but if I was killing great dragons, i'm not gonna stop and check the
plumbing to find out if i've killed all the females.

Who says they needed any female to reproduce? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[Socialist]

Doesn't it say somehwere that Dragons do indeed die, but are so old it seems that they are immortal. Kind of like Ents.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

If Glaurung was the father of dragons, who was the proverbial 'Tiamat'. That's a good question. Tiamat was known as a black dragon, and so was Ancalagon, but I distinctly remember Ancalagon as male. I don't know.

Where did dragons come from? Morgoth took iguanas and bats, stuck them in a box with some fallout from the radioactive silmarils, and after only ten days, he had a new playmate.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

If Glaurung was the father of dragons, who was the proverbial 'Tiamat'. That's a good question. Tiamat was known as a black dragon, and so was Ancalagon, but I distinctly remember Ancalagon as male. I don't know.

Where did dragons come from? Morgoth took iguanas and bats, stuck them in a box with some fallout from the radioactive silmarils, and after only ten days, he had a new playmate.

[Lost One]

In one of the versions of Turin's story, I think it say something like 'the evil spirit that was within (Glaurung) spoke..'.

[Ainaserkewen]

Maybe I can shed some light on this...
Whoever said that Morgoth can't creat, only mock was right...
If we look at it from a religious point of view, Morgoth who is, let's say, a recreation of the devil, did not creat anything. And the theory that orcs were tortured elves and trolls were tortured ents, where did the word "Tortured" come from? Oh yes, the movie.
The devil, according to most religions that have him, didn't creat things either, brand new things, made from scratch that is.

Let's say for a moment that Morgoth didn't corrupt other beings into his services, but did creat mockeries of them. Take elves. He was jealous of the elves, he wanted to dominate them, so using his power he made his own version of elves, in other words, orcs. Not original, but not the same. I believe the Valar had the power to do that, not to make new life, but to re-creat it, althought that was really evil and terrible thing to do.
What's his name, the Valar who made dwarves, wanted children of his own so he made them, Eru gave them life because they were made out of love and not jealousy, so they weren't evil.

Just my view on things. Because "mocking" doesn't nessesarily mean torturing an already existing race, but try to recreat it would hit nearer to the mark, don't you think?

[Voralphion]

I personally like to think that the dragons were Maiar, like Unodomiel (meaning Smaug would be an equivilant to Shelob, if you believe her to be a descendent), that Morgoth corrupted.

I think you mean Ungoliant. Undomiel was the 'surname' of Arwen and was translated as Evenstar.

[doug*platypus]

This thread actually contains some pretty good stuff. Well worth bumping, IMHO.

As to how Morgoth came to create Dragons, this is, as some have already said, a matter of pure speculation. My own theory is that they originated from large reptilian beasts which originally inhabited Arda (similar to dinosuars). Morgoth imbued these beats with disembodied spirits (Elves, or possibly Maia), thus giving them awareness and intelligence, and proceeded to breed them for certain characteristics (resulting, ultimately, in the winged variety).

Yet again I agree with Saucepan Man, and also with Lost One, who pointed out that:

In one of the versions of Turin's story, I think it say something like 'the evil spirit that was within (Glaurung) spoke..'.

Glaurung is several times credited with doing something "by virtue of the evil spirit that was in him". Perhaps Morgoth used these large reptilian dealies as bodies for some of the most powerful evil spirits in his service. We are told of several incarnate Eälar (spirits such as the Maiar and Valar) in the service of the Dark Lord: Sauron (who returns again and again in new forms), the Balrogs, Ungoliant (although she was never truly in his service). So I am firmly convinced that the evil spirit in Glaurung was of the same origin as Sauron and the Balrogs. My question is, what was that spirit doing before becoming incarnate as Glaurung? And what happened to it after his death?

My first reaction would be to say that the spirit of a former Balrog inhabited Glaurung, since they were the most powerful and evil of Morgoth's forces next to Sauron. But I don't recall any mention of a Balrog being slain until the Fall of Gondolin. So I assume that a spirit that had been lingering around Angband, or possibly cruising around Beleriand going "woo! wooooo!!", without a body, was called up for active duty, plonked into ye olde beast monster, enhanced with Morgoth's power over fire (dude was equivalent to a Vala... hello!) and let loose.

Now, what happened after the death of Glaurung? Well, what happens when an Eäla dies? Sauron died three times and returned (Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Númenor, Siege of Barad-Dûr), until finally he perished with the destruction of the One Ring. Much of his power was manifested physically in the Ring, and so he was finished when it was melted, yes Preciouss. Saruman was incarnate as an Istar when he was sent to Middle Earth. When he was killed, his spirit had no house; being evil he was banished from returning into the West, so he was finished as well. Gandalf would have suffered a similar fate, except for the intervention of Ilúvatar himself. So it is clear that once they are definitely incarnate, an Eäla will be killed if their body is destroyed. The spirit residing in Glaurung must have perished after he was slain by Túrin.

Could dragons breed? If not, then they would all have had to be created by Morgoth in the First Age. In The Hobbit, Smaug the Magnificent says that he was a young dragon when he first came to Erebor. In the relatively short time that he resided there, he had become older, with harder armour. If Smaug had been created by Morgoth, he would already have been ancient when he took over the running of the Lonely Mountain, and a few hundred years would have made little difference to him. Dragons bred. Which would mean they are a case similar to the Eagles. We know that most of them are mortal, but we aren't too sure about the fathers of the species, which would be Glaurung and Ancalagon.

Were Glaurung and Ancalagon Maiar?

[NightKnight]

Who says they needed any female to reproduce?

Hermaphrodites?

I think the "dinosaur" theory is good. I mean, he had to use something to get dragons, since he couldn't create life. Maybe he kept a breeding ground north of Angband? Hmmm... This makes me think of the beasts the Nazgûl ride on. Where were they bred?

[Findegil]

What we can be sure of, is that Dragons do reproduce. The quote below is from Unfinished Tales; part 3: The Third Age; chapter III: The Quest of Erebor; sub-chapter: Extracts from the earlier version, it can be found also in The Annotated Hobbit; Apendix A: The Quest of Erebor where the earlier version is given in full.
Gandlaf had just communicated the idea of taking a Hobbit in to the compnay of Thórin.

"What!" cried Glóin. "One of those simpletons down in the shire? What use on earth, or under it, could he possibly be? Let him smell as he may, he would never dare to come within smelling distance of the nakedest dragonet new from the shell!"

Since Thórin had just before exclaimed that "Dwarves have had more dealings with Dragons than most, and you [Gandalf] are not instructing the ignorant", we are inclined to take this as a clear evidence that Dragons do reproduce by lying eggs. Thus it is quiet possible to bread them. But from what stoke Morgoth started or if they needed female counterparts is not made clear as fare as I am aware of it.

In this respect I tried to find the source of the idea of the dragons bread from eagles. I am nearly sure that it is somewere in The History of Middle-Earth series. And it must be in one of the earlier volumes. But I could not finde it. Anyway I think that it is fairly outdated and could not be taken seriuos.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Hookbill the Goomba]

As Falagar and NightKnight have suggested, the Dragons being Hermaphrodites would perhaps be the best idea. If Morgoth wanted a large army of Dragons, he didn’t want the Dragons to have to go through the whole candle light supper and meeting the parents business that male and female Dragons would have to do. So In the interest of Time saving, Melkor would have made them as Hermaphrodites, that is plane enough. We also assume that, as with anything, Melkor made the Dragons in Mockery of another creature, this we take to be Eagles. However, as the encyclopaedia of Arda says:

Of the origins of dragons, no tale tells; the first of them to be seen was Glaurung, Father of Dragons, who first issued from Angband in the middle of the First Age. After Glaurung came many others to strike fear into Elves and Men for the next three ages; among them were Ancalagon the first winged dragon, Scatha who dwelt in the cold northern wastes, and Smaug, last of the great dragons.

As dragons live, in the words of Thorin, "Practically for ever” and most of that time is spent on a pile of Gold or in battle, Dragons don’t seem to want to mate, so we can assume that they don’t. However, we can also assume that Dragons can only have a limited number of Eggs, seeing as, alike to hobbits, they are never seen nowadays, as they hide away in old dwarf mines on piles of riches, I assume. But;

The dragons were not destroyed at the end of the Third Age; some are said to have survived to our own time, but the great worms and drakes of the Elder Days are no more.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

The idea of hermaphroditic dragons is an appeasing one, but I was always under the impression that Tolkien's dragons weren't especially different from those of Medieval Legend.

Where did Glaurung come from? I definitely don't think he was a tortured Eagle or anything of the sort, after all dragons may have rivalled eagles but there are many more differences than say, an Elf and an Orc. Rather, I'd take more a story like how Sauron bred his Nazgul's Steeds. Some ancient creature (dinosaurs, anyone?), still existed in the pits of Angband, and Morgoth, using black magic, did horrible things to them (like splicing with huge wings and so forth) and inhabited their bodies with Fell Spirits, extroardinarily powerful ones. Clearly not the Valaraukar, but something of that kinship - spirits of fire and ruin that hailed from the beginnings of Middle Earth itself, not unlike a Bombadil, a Goldberry, or other more 'Fairy-Tale-ish' sorts of things to be found in Tolkien's world.

Obviously the concept of bloodlines were important to Tolkien and in the Lord of the Rings and it's companion books. Glaurung being the first, was "Father of all Dragons" because he was the first finished product of all these freak reptiles Morgoth bred, inhabited with a fell spirit and allowed to grow beyond nature's original intentions. Clearly there would have been females too, just none anything within the realm of Glaurung, and all more nesting creatures. It's likely before he was unleashed on the world, Glaurung had a whole herum of female reptilian monsters, with nests of eggs the likes of which Ancalagon, Scatha and Smaug all came from, although each would have been subject to being interjected with one of the evil spirits of Morgoth's servitude whether while in eggs, or just after hatching, or even after a certain growth.

Obviously the Nazgul's steeds weren't possessed by evil spirits, they were just steeds, whereas dragons spirits were likely the reason they grew into the terrifyingly powerful creatures they were.

[Osse]

People seem to undersestimate the powers of Morgoth... he was the most powerful being on Arda (Eru dosen't count as he isnt' on arda ). He has the ability to create, perhaps through a twisted song or chant as the other vala do- without needed anything as a base. There is no evidence of any Dinosaur-like-reptiles (you've such an imagination saucepan man ) and if they existed, the Professor would have at least hinted to them somewhere in all of his works, even if he had abolished the idea at a later time. I would tend to think that Morgoth created the dragons from scratch, or used something as harmless and simple as a gecko and using (dare I say it) his 'magic' corrupted, and mutated the creature/s into what we know as dragons... of course he isn't as good as he used to be so it'd take a few goes. He also had no idea what he really wanted or needed in dragons; the Gondolin crisis really spurred him to need wings on em


However long i ramble for... what i really am in severe doubt about is (soft drum roll) whether or not dragons were able to reproduce!

I would say no. However there is nothing for me to back this up on, there is nothing on the subject. Apart from the fact that dragons slowly diminished, and even with the numbers of those slain, if they were reproducing, the race would still survive somewhere, or even grow. This of course brings the age of Smaug debate back to mind, and it looks like i've caused myself and all you guys to go round in circles on things we've debated over and over again and thought we'd decided on...

I'd go with the fact that Smaug was old... (something once again we can't prove- also due to the fact that i think Tolkien hadn't decided either, or didn't think it'd really matter how old Smaug was.)


Sorry guys, but this topic dosen't leave me with much to go on for putting my theories forth. (and i know this is an old one but!) my books are all still in storage in another hemisphere.


<goes back to the deep>

Ossë

[The Saucepan Man]

He has the ability to create, perhaps through a twisted song or chant as the other vala do- without needed anything as a base.

He couldn't create a creature with sentience from scratch, just as Aule couldn't with the Dwarves. Although I suppose he could have created non-sentient creatures and imbued them with disembodied spirits. But I'll carry on indulging my imagination ( ) and stick with the dinosaur theory.

There is no evidence of any Dinosaur-like-reptiles

In a world containing a giant squid-like creature, Oliphaunts and the Nazgul's fell beats, I am inclined to believe in the possibility of such creatures having existed.

if they existed, the Professor would have at least hinted to them somewhere in all of his works

I would find it very surprising if there were not creatures living in those parts of Middle-earth about which we are told very little (Far Harad, for example) which Tolkien never referred too. Surely, Tolkien's works do not contain a complete catalogue of the entire flora and fauna of Middle-earth throughout the Ages.

Apart from the fact that dragons slowly diminished, and even with the numbers of those slain, if they were reproducing, the race would still survive somewhere, or even grow.

Not necessarily, if their mortality rate exceeded their rate of reproduction (Dodos reproduced, after all). Or, assuming that Dragons were not hermaphrodites, perhaps there were no females left by the end of the Third Age.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Didn't dragons die out by the third age?
I had read somewhere that had happened. Also, what about in North Wilderland, or the deserts to the south of Middle Earth...couldn't dragons still dwell there? I think it's a distinct possibility left up to the mind by Mr. Tolkein.

[Nimrothiel]

Alright, here's my viewpoint:

Morgoth couldn't create anything by himself, but he and the other Valar/Valier created ME through song with the unknown guidance of Eru. However, Aule created the dwarves, and Yavanna the two trees. Therefore, would Morgoth not have some power to create a form of life? Then too, it is said that when he began his own song to drown out the music of the other Valar/Valier, some voices became attuned to his. Assuming that said voices were Maiar; perhaps he later caused their spirits to inhabit the bodies of the great dragons, and then used some form of genetics to create the lesser dragons. Stem cells, that sort of thing; only he could create a clone with an individual personality and physical characteristics.

[NightKnight]

Morgoth couldn't create anything by himself, but he and the other Valar/Valier created ME through song with the unknown guidance of Eru. However, Aule created the dwarves, and Yavanna the two trees. Therefore, would Morgoth not have some power to create a form of life?

After Aulë created the dwarves, Ilúvatar says something about them not being to move unless he was thinking about them. But then he adopted them and gave them own life. The same might go for Morgoth, but I don't think it applies to the dragons, as they were able to move even after he was thrown out of the world. Another example of the move-when-someone-thinks-about-you thing is at the battle of Morannon. When Sauron discovers Frodo, all his thoughts go there and his servants stop moving.
As for Yavanna, I think plants are a bit different from creatures. Plus the fact that growing plants was her specialty.

[doug*platypus]

Stem cells, that sort of thing

Forgive me for using your example, Nimrothiel, but I have noticed this kind of thing happening all over the Downs, especially on this thread.

It is highly unlikely that dragon reproduction, or anything in the history Middle-Earth, Valinor, Númenor or Tol Eressëa involved something that Tolkien could not possibly have known about!!!

[Nimrothiel]

Just because he didn't know the name for it doesn't mean he couldn't use the general idea. However, I think he would have preferred that Glaurung's origin remain unknown. It just adds to the mystery of his work.
Note: Plants are still life, a dragon is just on a larger scale (no pun intended); okay, an extremely larger scale. Yeah, I got nothin'.

Originally Posted by One Axe to Rule them All

I just got this off the main page, it ought to answer some questions.


"Dragons, the archetypical monster and supernatural creature of most mythologies of mankind, also have their place in Tolkien's Middle-Earth.
Often also named drakes (Old English), worms or wyrms there, dragons in Middle-Earth, are, however, exclusively evil creatures; created or bred by Morgoth, the primeval Dark Lord, in the pits of Angband in the First Age. What their true nature is, and what spirits inhibit them, is still a point of uncertainty, and much debate (as a look on the forum topics on dragons quickly reveals).
All dragons were huge and fierce, and possessed from the beginning a great evil cunning, and they could speak with enchanting voices. The first of them that was released upon the unsuspecting Elves in the Dagor Bragollach, appropriately called the Battle of Sudden Flame, was Glaurung the Golden, father of the Dragons: he was clad in thick scales, and might be imagined to have looked like a huge long lizard on four mighty legs, laying lands to waste with his fiery breath. Later, in the War of Wrath, Morgoth let loose the first flying dragons upon his enemies, of which Ancalagon the Black was the greatest.

The few dragons who survived the War of Wrath and the downfall of Morgoth and his stronghold, removed to scarcely inhabitated regions in the north and north-east of Middle-Earth. The Withering Heath in the eastern Grey Mountains was from then on ever a dangerous region as great dragons still prowled there.
However, with Morgoth gone, they were no longer under anyone's control, as Sauron never mustered the strength to command those mightiest of Morgoth's creations.
Therefore, the dragons used to take abodes of their own, devastating dwellings of the free peoples, and gathering about them great hoards of riches; Scatha, who was slain by Fram, a Northman, and Smaug, the dragon in The Hobbit, both possessed great treasures robbed from the dwarves.

Most we know about dragons is handed down in the stories of a few individual specimen and their slayers.
Glaurung the great Worm of Angband was inevitably and fatally tied to the doom of Túrin Turambar; in a way it was him that carried out the curse of Morgoth. At the Dagor Bragollach, he was not come to full growth yet, and could be warded off by the doughty dwarves. Later, however, when Túrin was staying in Nargothrond, Glaurung devastated it, by then already virtually the captain of Morgoth's troops, and the enchanting glare of his maliciously intelligent eyes created the dreadful fate of Túrin to abandon Finduilas and marry his own sister. When he went to seek Túrin again, Glaurung was slain by him upon crossing a gorge, being stabbed by Túrin's sword into his unprotected belly (a characteristic of most dragons, it seems); but not without revealing Túrin's many errors before passing away.

Ancalagon the Black was said to have been the greatest of the winged dragons, and was released unto the foes of Angband in the War of Wrath. Eärendil, bearing the Silmaril, and accompanied by the great eagles, slew him in his airborne ship.

Smaug was the dragon who expelled the dwarves, among them Thorin Oakenshield, from their kingdom under the Lonely Mountain Erebor.In the great adventure of Bilbo Baggins, Gandalf and the party of dwarves under Thorin, he proved to be a cunning foe, and terrible enemy, as he, roused by the dwarves, descended unto the nearby Laketown, incinerating it, but in turn being slain by Bard the Bowman, who found the only weak spot on the dragon's jewel-protected belly.

The battle prowess, supernatural abilities, and malicious intelligence made dragons most formidable opponents, against whom the group tactics applied by Elves and dwarves availed little except keeping them at bay for a while. In order to slay a dragon in Middle-Earth, it needed a wretched hero, bound to and chosen by fate, armed with a legacy, magic weaponry and not seldom a fey spirit, who would face the beast alone, often meeting his own doom in the encounter."

I think no one made the dragons!!! The dragons have lived centuries without a human tuching or knowing about them!! Maybe tht is what Tolikin is trying to symbolise, that the Dragons is a mystical beast that no human can know were it`s origen began!! The symbol for dragons are tht they have curage,Mystic and are not easy to find!! That`s whan`t Tolkin woud have said!! A Beast shall not be made a origen in a book!!!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

No. Dragons did not exist for centuries without humans knowing about them. Glaurung, father of Dragons, was unveiled to humans when he was yet a youngster.

[galadriel'smaiden]

This may have been stated earlier in the thread, but if so I missed it.

Were the Ringwraiths' Fell Beasts related tp the dragons?
In my opinion they probably were, or were at least some sub-specie (I hope I spelled that right) of dragon.

[Gil-Galad]

too me fell beast weren't a sub-species of dragons, in the pictures i saw they looked almost like vultures, they were probaly one of many creatures morgoth made yet did not unveil them.

[Gurthang]

Okay, I've got a thought here, but it's still all theory. The Ringwraith's steads could be the missing link in our mystery. So here it is.

There would definately have been many unknown creatures across Arda(like down south where Ungoliant is from, for example). There could have been strange giant reptilian beings in the world. Morgoth took some of them and used his power to inhibit them with fell spirits and to change them physically. Slowly, dragons developed, with fire-breath and cool spell casting eyes. Later wings were added.

Then there are the Nazgul's rides. Sauron, being a good little minion, tried to copy his master's brilliance. Only he could not get that fire thing down, or find the necessary spirits to give them power. So he just threw the wreched critturs to his best followers to play with. And they used them well.

As I said, this is still theory, but its my best guess.


As far as breeding goes, well, I don't really care except it was nearly non-existant