power vs greatness

[the phantom]

Power seems to be a very popular word here in the books. Everyone wants to know who's the most powerful of this race, who's the most powerful of that group, who's the most powerful in this age, and so on. I did a search for the words power and powerful, and found 39 threads in the books that had one of these words in their title.

It seems that in all of these debates, certain quotes always appear, such as the one naming Feanor and Galadriel as the greatest of the Noldor, and the one naming Luthien as the greatest of the Eldar. But do those really mean anything when speaking of power? If you don't catch my drift, I'll give you a quote from my friend lord of dor-lomin on a recent thread that was, as usual, mixing up power and greatness.
(the thread was debating if Luthien or Galadriel was the more powerful being)

I think there's a difference between being "powerful" and being "great". When Tolkien says that "__ was the greatest of the __" I think he means "greatest" (that's what he said after all), not the most powerful.

Greatness would include a lot of things like goodness, nobility, and wisdom.

Power, however, is a bit different. Goodness and nobility don't matter as much, if at all. (just look at Morgoth/Sauron, zero goodness, yet undeniably very powerful) Also, power wouldn't weigh wisdom as heavily as sheer knowledge. Will power would be included, as well as the ability to master other's will. Not only would mastery over mind be important, but also mastery over matter. The number of skills a person has and how advanced those skills are would count greatly too. I also believe that combat ability would have an important place.

Using this sort of definition of power (vast knowledge, strong will, great skill, mastery over mind and matter, ability in battle), it seems to me that a certain elf besides Galadriel and Luthien pops into mind. (hint: his name starts with an F)

(he was hinting at Feanor, of course)

Now, I'm sure this is complete blasphemy to many people here. I've noticed that several people seem to be ridiculously obsessed with Galadriel, Gandalf, Luthien, and other such people who are undeniably very good and noble characters, and seem to think that because they're good, they're more powerful.

Now, as much as I'd love for good to always win, I am forced to say that no, being good does not make one more powerful. Purity may very well make one "greater", but greatness and power are not the same thing, so I don't think that those greatness quotes have any place in debates about power.

Power is one area that I believe is open for one to create their own definition (I like lord of dor-lomin's pretty well).

I'm very interested in what the rest of you think.

[Iarwain]

most interesting, good point!

I like the debate on the definition of power (Magic vs. Power). It's open to different arguments, but at the same time there are bits of evidence scattered throughout the works.

Iarwain

[Salocin]

Um... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

OK, the initial shock is over.

Frankly, I think your wrong. Luthien is way more powerful than Feanor. Who else could descise one self as a vampire (hey, ever notice that is the only place where vampires are ever mentioned?, I wounder if there is already a topic on that...), utterly defeted Sauron and kicked him out of his own fortress, sneek into Angband, put Melkor and ALL the people in his court to sleep, steel Melkor's most prized posetion right from under his nose (well, above his head),etc,etc. No one else (aside from Beren) ever left Angband without Melkor's aproval. Galadrial is also up their. She could keep her mind from Sauron and still read his. Maybe greatness and power are slightly different, but I have yet to see an example showing this. I would argue that greatness has very little to do with goodness, or at least can have one of too conotations: with goodness or without. Notice Sauron was one of the greatest of the fallen Maia, and Glaurung was the greatest dragon. In both cases "great" means "powerful" and in neither case was it a measure of goodness.

[the phantom]

Frankly, I think your wrong. Luthien is way more powerful than Feanor

Umm...that's not what I'm trying to argue. This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with Feanor and Luthien. It was lord of dor-lomin's quote that mentioned them, I merely used the quote to open the discussion.

This thread is merely discussing the difference between power and greatness. Don't get off track. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

No, I think that Salocin has a good point. Greatness does not necessarily mean goodness. For example, it might be said a great evil arose in the north. Evil can be great in that sense just as good can.

Greatness is a very vague and difficult to define concept, in the same way that power is. Phantom, you have pointed out the different ways in which power may be defined (and I will come back to that). But, I think that greatness is much the same. A character may be great in physical strength and therefore physically powerful. Or they may have great strength of mind, in which case they are mentally powerful. In fact, greatness is probably a wider concept, since a person might be described as having great beauty, but it is rare for beauty to be described as powerful (Helen of Troy, perhaps [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ).

Having said that, I think that there is merit in a discussion of how the concept of power is used in JRRT's works (there is probably already a thread on this, but I will plough on nevertheless [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ). As you say, it is a word that has been bandied about on a great many threads without any real attempt being made to define what is meant by it. (I'm sure that there are exceptions, indeed Iarwain's Magic v Power thread is one such and I'm sure that there are a great many others which I have not read).

Power is a combination of a great many things, which the "powerful" characters of the books have in varying degrees. So, Gandalf's power lies not only in his "wizard" abilities (lightning bolts, incendiary fir cones and the like), but also in his wisdom, his judgement and his strength of mind. And perhaps his greatest power ("great" there being used as a qualifier of his power [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) is in his understanding of ME and its peoples. He knows where allies might be found in the least likeliest of places. The most obvious example here is his recognition the worth of the Hobbits (who most others have overlooked).

Sauron, too has great strength of mind. The power of his will, through the Nine Rings of Power, enslaves the Nazgul. Indeed, it is the power of his will that works through the One Ring to seek to corrupt, and eventually enslave, those who come into contact with it. And yet, for all that, he (unlike Gandalf) is unable to see the whole picture. He is unaware of the strength that lies in the most unlikliest of places, such as the Shire. And it is inconceivable to, and therefore wholly unforeseen by, him that two Hobbits might succeed in entering his realm with the intention of destroying the Ring. That is where the weakness in his power lies.

One aspect of power that has not been mentioned is military power. In most of the threads discussing who is the most powerful, the focus is generally on personal power, ie who would beat who in a one to one. This is an area where Sauron surely beats everyone else hands down. He had the mightiest (most powerful [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) armies at his disposal (Orcs, Trolls, Easterlings, Southrons etc) and the most dreadful of servants (the Nazgul to name but Nine). Gandalf (for all his ability to guide and direct the leaders of the armies of the free peoples) cannot hold a candle to him on this aspect of power. Had it come down to a straight miltary battle, Sauron would have prevailed.

Wow. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] I was going to talk about the different types of power displayed by the other "powerful" characters: Fingolfin, Feanor, Galadriel, Aragorn, Saruman, the Balrog etc, but I've rambled on for far too long. The point is, I suppose, that power displays itself in various ways in each of these characters. So, when we are talking about who is the most powerful, it is important first to consider what exactly we mean by "power".

[the phantom]

So, when we are talking about who is the most powerful, it is important first to consider what exactly we mean by "power".

Yes! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] That's exactly one of the reasons I started this thread. To get a bead on what power is.

In that quote I posted, I thought a fairly good definition was given.

Using this sort of definition of power (vast knowledge, strong will, great skill, mastery over mind and matter, ability in battle)

That pretty much sums up my opinion on what power is.

Gandalf's power lies not only in his "wizard" abilities (lightning bolts, incendiary fir cones and the like), but also in his wisdom, his judgement and his strength of mind

As stated in the thread opening post, I think wisdom and judgement are seperate from power. I think of power as more of raw potential, or sheer domination of things (such as mind, body, information, and substances). I believe that most things that we consider to be virtues (wisdom, kindness, goodness, and so on), the things that make a character complete, are the things that determine greatness, not power.

I see greatness as an overall definition of a character. It is all inclusive. Every single shortcoming as well as every last virtue being weighed in the definition. Greatness is the ultimate measure of a being.

However, I don't believe that power is the same thing. I pretty much agree with the definition of power previously stated in the quote from lord of dor-lomin.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Well, since you guys are using my quote, I think I have the right to butt in. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

For one thing, how about the use of "most powerful" and "greatest" within Tolkien's books. I don't recall seeing most powerful written very much, actually I can't remember any instance right now, which is exactly why I think it's so open for opinions.

I believe that Tolkien valued greatness over power, which was why he used that particular word. LOTR is essentially the triumph over a foe who was obviously more powerful. The leaders in Sauron's downfall (Frodo, Aragorn, Gandalf) certainly couldn't match up guns for guns with Sauron and his empire, but they were perhaps "greater", because of their nobility, goodness, mercy, and wisdom. They were superior beings in the overall scope of things, though they were certainly not as powerful.

Yes, as my quote says, I believe that power and greatness are not the same thing (therefore, using a "greatest" quote shouldn't work in debates about power).

[tifo_gcs]

I argue that Greatness is a quality all in its own right. Saucepan, you say that "A great evil arose..." In this case, you use great as an adjective describing evil. I contend that it is possible to use Greatness as a noun, just as power is a noun. In which case, I choose to define greatness as a positive thing.
Given therefore that greatness is a positive thing, I will now further contend that those who posess greatness in Middle Earth have greater power than those who are great evil (Note greatness as noun, great as adjective). I base this on the observation that Gandalf, being on eaual rank with Sauron in the hierarchy of ME (both Maia), defeats Sauron's alliance of evil with his own alliance of good.

Gandalf has greatness as a quality due to, as saucepan man says "his wisdom, his judgement and his strength of mind," not to mention his kindness, care and concern for all living things. Now I realize that that quote comes from a description of Gandalf's power, but I think we can all agree that Gandal has those qualities. To contrast Saruon has hatred, fear, greed, sentiments which I think we all can agree make negative character traits

There is also the example of Boromir vs. Faramir. Boromir has great power, the trust of his father, he is a renowned captain, with courage and skill. However, he lacks the mental capacity that Faramir has, for being just and kind and, above all, wise Faramir, who is also skilled in the arts of war, and also has a good reputation, but who also has the proper mindset of being able to reject the ring, while also being kind and fair.
End result, he lives, Boromir dies.

Greatness is in my opinion a mental factor that has to do with wisdom and goodness, and I believe that greatness increases the power of those who have it.