Orc children

I had already read several times that there are two aparent references/quotes in The Hobbit about the Orc children, but I had not found them yet... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Can anybody help me to find them?

Thank you

Greetings from Rivendel

Elfa Arwena

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think one of them was the statement that the Goblins stayed in the Mountains until their numbers were replenished, which suggests possible baby Goblins.

But I could be way off. I know frighteningly little about Orcs.

[Selmo]

There's a reference somewhere in The Silmarillion that says that Orcs multiplied in the same way as the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men).

[Cúdae]

I just searched the Hobbit and found only the previously mentioned quote. But I suppose that there would have to be baby orcs (Aww...isn't Ugluk Jr. cute?), or else there would be no orcs. I am pretty sure Sauron wasn't doing any strange scientific cloning and Morgoth wasn't either.
The other quote I found interesting. That would have to imply that there are female orcs-- but where? Are they fighters like the male orcs? I would think they had to be. If they are, are they mentioned anywhere at all?

sorry if I've gone off topic and doubly sorry if someone has discussed this before.

[burrahobbit]

Ghola tanks.

[Kalimac]

Cudae, there was a thread a while ago about the female orc question (I started it, in fact). I can't get the link to work for some reason, but it's from April and called "Far from the Orc I love." Feel free to start another discussion, though (moderators permitting, of course), since this one got a little...silly in places [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

For Goblin children; I believe the other reference would also be in "The Hobbit" in "Riddles in the Dark" when Gollum is referred to as having recently killed a small goblin-imp - "That nasssty young squeaker." I don't believe there's any reference to it at all in LOTR, and there's no direct reference to Orc women either. I think this (Orc women and children) may ultimately be one of those Entwife-style questions; the answer could be anything because the evidence one way or another just isn't there.

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Lush]

Ghola-what? Whatever he/she/it is, I couldn't find a reference at the Encyclopedia of Arda site (and all my Tolkien books are up at school)!

[burrahobbit]

You are looking in the wrong place.

[Lush]

Yeah, I figured as much.

[Joy]

Kalimac - here's you link - Far from the Orc I love

Ghola tanks - is that from Dune??

[Kalimac]

Thanks, Joy [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

burrahobbit, I'm not sure I even want to know.

At this point I'm just tempted to plump for the "multiplied after the children of Iluvatar" explanation and leave the care and feeding of Orc women and children to the Orcs themselves. Ah well.

[Lush]

Yep, it's from Dune.

"Females as farm equipment"-is the direct statement from burra, referring to the possibility that Orcs used women as actual baby-making machines and nothing more.

Sorry burra, I know you like to confuse, but I can't help but be a Nazi b*** who likes order (sometimes).

[burrahobbit]

It strikes me as something that Orcs would do.

I don't hate you, Lush, Joy guessed it first. I certainly wasn't about to volunteer any information, though.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I take literally the references that Orcs are "spawned." I just can't imagine Orcs providing the necessary succour and cooperation to own their kind that is indispensable for mammalian-like gestation and maturation.

They a wholly corrupted and crooked form of like, and I have no problem seeing the mutilation of Elves being a contributing factor to the material of that form, that is completely removed from their having a Soul of the nature that troubled Tolkien as he tried to reconcile what little information the Wise and the Free People could have ever had about such origins. Morgoth was chatty or a journal keeper. What they had instead of a soul is a reproducible demonic power, not unlike that that inhabited Werewolves or Dragons on a much grander scale.

Under normal circumstances left to their own devices the may have had the ability and drive to do what is necessary to provide for the seeding and metamorphosis of new Orcs at a rate that is similar to how Men and Elves are able to multiply. But to multiply is not necessarily the same as procreate.

And it does not explain how Sauron and others are able to produce such vast numbers over relatively short periods, unless one ascribes to them the skill and power to organize and enhance the spawning process in a way that substantially increases the geometric rate of growth. I feel that this is power that Saruman acquired (or was given) and that he used, not unlike what is shown in the Film.

[burrahobbit]

Tolkien said that Orcs reproduced the same way that Elves and Men did. Orcs did not use pods, they used sex.

[Durelin]

Interesting...I would have liked it better if I could invision them using pods and not sex. Oh well. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Durelin ]

[the witch king]

indeed the thort of orc sex is a chilling one(could be worse we could be talking about trolls) but we must keep in mind that orcs originate from twisted elves so they will make babeys in a simeler way

[akhtene]

...how Sauron and others are able to produce such vast numbers over relatively short periods, unless one ascribes to them the skill and power to organize and enhance the spawning process in a way that substantially increases the geometric rate of growth.

As orcs are twisted elves, they are immortal as well. At least they don't die of grief, and in more or less peaceful times they don't get killed a lot. Which theoretically allows them to reproduce at exactly geometrical rate. (Am I wrong at that? Have always been poor at maths [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

Another point I want to make - those of bad reputation (among animals and humans) are not necesserily the worst sort of parents. Hyenas and crocodiles are among the most caring moms. The groups of humans considered outcast (just don't feel like giving any examples) have very close relations inside the comunities and are quite fecund

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think the term is "multiply" not "reproduce," which by itself would not necessarily entail the same sort of biological processes. "Multiply" is even more generaly.

As Orcs may not suffer from natural death, that would contribute to their geometric rate of growth, but Elves don't really multiply very effectively either. Also, I think it is fair to say that Orcs may die disportionately from the violence that they elicit from their own kind and from other people. Orc lives seem pretty cheap and easily lost.

So, I would still speculate that part of what makes the dark powers powerful is their ability to raise large number of Orcs in a way that is not necessarily accomplished by natural, instinctive spawning.

Also, I would not want to imply that Humans or even primates are the only ones who do conscientious work in raising their young. Look at Birds. But this in no way seems to help out the case for our dear Orcs, who are evil and incapable of "nuturing" in a way that no normal animal would be.

So, while the image of Orkian intercourse is repulsive, and probably inconscienable for someone like JRRT, the thought of pregnant Orcs and young being reared is ludicrous.

One must rather envision an ant-farm, maggots or Frog-like system, by which an organism is seeded and develops in a self-automated fashion.

[Aragorn_The_King]

There where no elf children. They where spawned (and that is a quote) there is (shockingly) a pretty good picture in the movie.

[burrahobbit]

You may not realize it, but spawn and reproduce mean the same thing. Egg + sperm leads to a baby, which turns into an adult. There isn't any other way.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Knight of Gondor]

Y'know, perhaps ya'll should branch back into talking about children rather than Orcish sex, eh? It's a topic that could get out of hand, or that stands out to be deleted.

The concept of Orc-woman or children is an interesting one...and it begs the question. Would it be right to kill an Orc-infant if you knew it would be (and already is) evil to the very core? I would say try giving it a chance at being nice. It's the idea behind my ever-dormant story about an Orc-baby that becomes a helper to the good guys, and sort of turns into an Elf-type person because it is nice.

[Galorme]

Are Orcs totally and uterly corrupt? Tolkein says that they are twisted and corrupt, but does he ever say that they are totally evil. Because maybe they can raise children, I dont see exactly why they couldn't. Morgoth was pretty much as evil as they get and he raised Carchroth didn't he?

Also they could raise children because they see it as a means to an end: more orcs therefore a bigger army. They could see making love as pretty much the same thing.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

From the Sil.

For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning

Clearly orcs are perversions of Eru's creation, as Melkor is unable to create even the semblance of life. In their basic biology they are like Elves and Men. To me that means they gave birth to young.

As to the question of how the young were created....who knows, maybe they exchanged loin cloths or something, does it really matter? Orkian intercourse is not unconscionable, it is a necessary part of life as for many other of Tolkien’s invented beings. Tolkien said all he needed to in one portion of a sentence “after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar”, without offending any fastidious sensibilities.

Orcs as mothers: perhaps Orc children are born more fully formed than humans. They may not need the degree of care that human children need. That perhaps runs contrary to my next point but..regarding being able to produce lots of orcs in a short time: maybe orc gestation periods are shorter than humans. Perhaps they reach reproductive maturity quicker than humans. Combine those with a forced breeding program and I bet you can crank out a bunch of orcs pretty fast.

Shorter gestation or more fully formed at birth need not contradict “after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar.” They were perversions after all.

Woo hoo...I have graduated to the exalted status of Wight. Does that get me a discount at the Barrow-teria? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Knight of Gondor]

Come to think of it...I know the movie isn't the most reliable source, but Lurtz was born full-grown, was he not? Yuck, was he.

[Orual]

Sillies, didn't you know that Orcs spring from the stones in Mordor? Yeah! Just like Dwarves! And the earth isn't round, either...no, indeed, it's shaped like a burrito!

^_^

Sorry about that, I kind of had to. Stress relief. Venting. I thought it was rather funny, though.

~*~Orual~*~

(Added: I forgot to note that you won't get the burrito joke unless you read "Bloom County." If you do, it was part of the penguin evolution lawsuit storyline.)

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Orual ]

[Galorme]

You, my friend, are odd.