Intervention by Eru?

[Mhoram]

Lets discuss possible interventions by Eru. Would the destruction of Numenor be the only time? What other cases might have been an intervention by Eru?

[Orald]

When Gandalf died he was sent to Eru for a powerup. I don't think Manwë could have done that. It isn't really direct intervention, but without Gandalf there, who knows...

[Turambar]

I don't have any books with me, but when my kinsman Beren was "sent back", was that an act of Eru, or was Manwë responsible?

[Mhoram]

Durelen, i've heard it said before that Gandalf was sent back by Eru, but I have never read the quote myself? Could you direct me to it?

With Beren and Luthien I was under the impression that it was all Manwe and Mandos.

For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.
.....
The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall ever hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and the listening the Valar grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since.
Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.
These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, land subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.
This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, thought all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.

[Sharkû]

In one of those 'jotted side-note' cases, it mentions (in UT), that sending the Istari was a plan on which Manwë probably had the counsel of Eru; we know that Manwe often sought his direct advice, but don't have that many instances mentioned, I think.

[Mhoram]

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

This always seemed to me to imply that Eru wouldn't interfere, just let things go to really show Melkor up. I mean obviously Eru will come out on top if he personally guides things. Know what i'm saying?

[Aralaithiel]

Yep, I dig it, Mhoram.
In the case of Gandalf, I think Eru had the final say as to his (Gadnalf's) fate.
Beren & Luthien, that was all Mandos.

[Aiwendil]

There's a quote somewhere in Letters that says that Eru sent Gandalf back. It has also been suggested that Eru had something to do with Bilbo's finding of the Ring. And Eru interfered to give life to the Dwarves.

[Voronwe]

In Letter 153, Tolkien says that the changing of the fates of Luthien and Tuor must have been a direct act of Eru (since such a thing was beyond the authority of the Valar). So we have at least two more examples of Eru's intervention, apart from the downfall of Numenor.

If one of the stories in the Athrabeth is to be believed, then Eru actually spoke to the first Men (as a voice in their hearts), before their corruption by Morgoth. It seems He was initially much more closely involved with Men than with elves.

Lastly, there is this very interesting quote, from the Athrabeth:

'What then was this hope, if you know?' Finrod asked.
'They say', answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end.

Surprising, indeed: the Athrabeth seems to be the only place in the entire mythology where Tolkien explicitly refers to his own religion.

[Mhoram]

I'm noticing that each intervention was dealing with the Children of Iluvatar.

Children of Iluvatar = Eru's responsibility?

Arda itself and the Ainur = Valar's responsibility?

[Thingol]

"...For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in confirmity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was in vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
...So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course, he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison....
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."

Letter Number 156

The Valar's plan for the Istari failed; Radagast had become enamoured with the beasts of Middle-earth, Saruman had succumbed to designs of power and a lust for the One Ring, the Blue Wizards were rumoured to have founded "magic cults", and even Gandalf was killed, yet Sauron remained and was realizing his effort for complete domination of Middle-earth. This is the point where Gandalf's sacrifice is changed. As Tolkien makes clear, it was not the Valar who returned Gandalf; it was "Authority", he who "ordained the Rules", or more plainly, Iluvatar.

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]