mimicking his counsellors? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**lindil** · 03-24-2003, 07:12 PM

"Saruman, Saruman!
Saruman, you missed your path in life. You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors. Ah me!"
Gandalf

What did G. mean by mimicking his counsellors?

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Silmarien · 03-24-2003, 07:19 PM

I think he meant mimicking the king(the one he was jester to)'s Councillors. It's a pretty big insult I always think. Kind of like Saruman doesn't have anything original to say.

Iarwain · 03-24-2003, 07:20 PM

In a traditional midevial monarchy there was the king, and then his court, or counsellors. The jester would have preformed before the king, in some cases by making fun of the members of the court.

Aiwendil · 03-24-2003, 10:26 PM

Saruman's "counsel" sounds like a jester's mockery of true counsel.

Birdland · 03-24-2003, 10:44 PM

I believe that Gandalf was trying to "break the spell" of Saruman's voice over his audience through laughter, which actually is a pretty good tactic. (Though I never thought Gandalf's line was that funny.)

Beren87 · 03-24-2003, 10:51 PM

I always took it to literally mean become a jester and mimic the counsellors who paraded around doing nothing helpful, being in essence, Wormtongue. He was saying Saruman would have suceeded more by putting his voice to use as Wormtongue did.

Lutfiska · 03-25-2003, 11:13 AM

I agree with beren..

Carlas · 03-25-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Kind of like Saruman doesn't have anything original to say.

I don't think he really did anymore. He was more or less under the control of Sauron, Sauron's 'puppet'. And I think he actually was a sort of jester for Sauron, even if he didn't know it. Being evil, it must be kind of funny to have a great being such as Saruman, doing your biding for you.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-25-2003, 03:32 PM

Actually the Royal Counsel (at least in England) was a committee of senior nobles and churchmen who advised the king on state affairs. Gandalf is saying that Saruman sounds like a parody of a counsellor (politician if you will), whereas originally he had been the real thing. A very biting comment indeed, considering Saruman's new status. As Carlas says, he had become little more than Sauron's sidekick, so jester was an apt description.

Arwen Imladris · 03-25-2003, 03:55 PM

I think that Gandalf was pointing out that the way that Saruman talked was much like Grima Wormtongue. Wormtongue was always wispering in the kings ears, pursuading the king that he was too weak and getting him to do things that were not in Rohan's best interest. Saruman was talking in the same way, acting as though he was innocent. Gandalf is saying that these words mean nothing, I see your plan, it won't work on me! You are as bad as Wormtounge. Thats what I think.

**lindil** · 03-25-2003, 07:52 PM

I think after reviewing the wide variety of opinions [which accurately mirrored some of my confused guesses], Squatter and Aiwendil seemded to nail it most closely.

any other thoughts?

Lindril Arvilya · 03-25-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

(Though I never thought Gandalf's line was that funny.)

Gandalf might have been a bit stressed at the time.

akhtene · 03-25-2003, 08:40 PM

I side with Birdland that Gandalf remark was aimed to break the spell of Saruman's voice (well, perhaps any other words + laughter could serve the purpose [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

The remark may as well be aimed at Grima "the councellor" who (and Gandalf knew this) was inside together with his master. Gandalf might want to belittle Saruman in the eyes -or ears- of Grima, placing him inferior to the former councellor.

Lalaith · 03-26-2003, 07:04 AM

Lindil, I had also always assumed that line had the meaning given it by Squatter and Aiwendil. For what it's worth.

03-24-2003, 07:12 PM	#1
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	mimicking his counsellors? "Saruman, Saruman! Saruman, you missed your path in life. You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors. Ah me!" Gandalf What did G. mean by mimicking his counsellors? [ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-24-2003, 07:19 PM	#2
Silmarien Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Lost but Found Posts: 199	I think he meant mimicking the king(the one he was jester to)'s Councillors. It's a pretty big insult I always think. Kind of like Saruman doesn't have anything original to say. __________________ Though here at journeys end I lie in dakness buried deep, beyond all towers strong and high beyond all mountains steep, above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell:I will not say the Day is done nor bid the Stars farewell!

03-24-2003, 07:20 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	In a traditional midevial monarchy there was the king, and then his court, or counsellors. The jester would have preformed before the king, in some cases by making fun of the members of the court. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-25-2003, 11:13 AM	#7
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	I agree with beren.. __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-25-2003, 03:32 PM	#9
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Actually the Royal Counsel (at least in England) was a committee of senior nobles and churchmen who advised the king on state affairs. Gandalf is saying that Saruman sounds like a parody of a counsellor (politician if you will), whereas originally he had been the real thing. A very biting comment indeed, considering Saruman's new status. As Carlas says, he had become little more than Sauron's sidekick, so jester was an apt description. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

03-24-2003, 10:26 PM	#4
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Saruman's "counsel" sounds like a jester's mockery of true counsel.

03-24-2003, 10:44 PM	#5
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I believe that Gandalf was trying to "break the spell" of Saruman's voice over his audience through laughter, which actually is a pretty good tactic. (Though I never thought Gandalf's line was that funny.)

03-24-2003, 10:51 PM	#6
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	I always took it to literally mean become a jester and mimic the counsellors who paraded around doing nothing helpful, being in essence, Wormtongue. He was saying Saruman would have suceeded more by putting his voice to use as Wormtongue did.

03-25-2003, 03:55 PM	#10
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I think that Gandalf was pointing out that the way that Saruman talked was much like Grima Wormtongue. Wormtongue was always wispering in the kings ears, pursuading the king that he was too weak and getting him to do things that were not in Rohan's best interest. Saruman was talking in the same way, acting as though he was innocent. Gandalf is saying that these words mean nothing, I see your plan, it won't work on me! You are as bad as Wormtounge. Thats what I think. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

03-25-2003, 07:52 PM	#11
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I think after reviewing the wide variety of opinions [which accurately mirrored some of my confused guesses], Squatter and Aiwendil seemded to nail it most closely. any other thoughts? __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-25-2003, 08:40 PM	#13
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	I side with Birdland that Gandalf remark was aimed to break the spell of Saruman's voice (well, perhaps any other words + laughter could serve the purpose [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) The remark may as well be aimed at Grima "the councellor" who (and Gandalf knew this) was inside together with his master. Gandalf might want to belittle Saruman in the eyes -or ears- of Grima, placing him inferior to the former councellor. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

03-26-2003, 07:04 AM	#14
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Lindil, I had also always assumed that line had the meaning given it by Squatter and Aiwendil. For what it's worth. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

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