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08-04-2020, 01:57 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 99
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Morgoth once had a army of corrupted maiar?
Before the War of the Jewels when he stayed in Utumno, I believe he didn't captured any elves yet and converted them to orcs. So his servants must be evil maiar? That eventually evolved to balrogs, werewolves, vampires and drakes?
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08-04-2020, 02:49 PM | #2 | ||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,909
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Most definitely! The Silmarillion tells us as much:
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As to the others, the werewolves, vampires, and dragons... were they Maiar? Many have theorised as much, but I don't think Tolkien quite says. 'Werewolf' could simply mean 'Warg' (the goblins of the Third Age could speak to Wargs, so why not Beren and Luthien?), and the text doesn't actually say vampires are anything other than giant bats. Dragons were explicitly machines in the very early Legendarium; who knows what Tolkien thought of them later? I believe Ungoliant is a Maia in at least one telling of the story; and in the late Legendarium, Tolkien toyed with the idea of some Orcs being Maiar! Quote:
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Other Maiar of Melkor had less physical form: Quote:
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08-05-2020, 03:46 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,034
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Orc-spear to my throat, I'd have to "vote" for Tolkien settling on Orcs from Men [with altered timeline] . . .
. . . plus Maiar-orcs, which appear in the Myths Transformed section of Morgoth's Ring, in "Orc texts" 8, 9, and 10 if I recall correctly. Or as it might appear in a story, Orcs from Men presented as a belief of the Eldar, as in a late note to The Druedain, Unfinished Tales, which would still be a notable shift in my opinion, from the [externally earlier] opinions of the Wise of Eressea. |
08-05-2020, 05:57 PM | #4 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,381
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Boldog, as a name at least, appears early on as a great captain of the Orcs, if I recall. I just finished both Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin and I took note of a mention that Boldog was slain. If I had to guess based upon memory, I would say it was in the Lay of Leithien.
It is not clear that the breeding of Orcs began after the fall of Utumno. This would mean that the task was left in other hands (Sauron perhaps) or that the breeding began after Morgoth returned to Angband, leaving too little time, in my opinion, to create the armies described in the Silmarillion. Because the corruption of Orcs (and I will not be dragged into the Elves/Men/Beasts discussion) is clearly attributed to Morgoth, I would guess that the breeding program at least began while he was still in Utumno. While Maiar were clearly recruited by Morgoth, their numbers are not clear. Certainly the Balrogs (hundreds per the Lay of Leithien, seven per later notes), and probably all speaking monsters including dragons, Draugluin and Carcharoth.
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08-05-2020, 06:57 PM | #5 | ||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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08-05-2020, 07:22 PM | #6 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,401
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Never go to Tolkien for council, for he will say both no and yes.
But my (much less scholarly) opinion is that if Elves served as the prototype for orcs, whether directly or as a "model" for a different clay, the corruption could have started as early as in Utumno. I recall that Morgoth's servants would pose as Orome and kill/kidnap stray Elves - and who is to say that he didn't kidnap them for his experiments, amongst other purposes?
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08-06-2020, 12:04 AM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,034
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I'd like to add that as far as timing is concerned, Tolkien need not be constrained by the events and timeline of the 1977 constructed Silmarillion. For example, he's shifting the Awakening of Men back in time to account for the breeding of "regular" orcs from Men while Melkor was in Aman (text 10) -- [pushing it back even more than 3500 Sun Years according to CJRT, if the Awakening of Men is placed even very late in the period of the Great March of the Eldar]
Orc-formed Maiar can account for some early "real" orcs (not delusions). Utumno was broken in Valian Year 1099, so roughly four hundred Valian years elapsed before Morgoth made his first assault on Beleriand in 1497. And Tolkien here notes (again, text 10) that the breeding of Orcs had already begun before Morgoth was made captive. |
08-06-2020, 07:18 AM | #8 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 99
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Dragons, werewolves and vampires
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Last edited by Victariongreyjoy; 08-06-2020 at 07:22 AM. |
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08-06-2020, 03:28 PM | #9 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
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Well yes... And no.
"Maiar" isn't a taxonomic classification; it just signifies Ainur who went into the world but not including the 15 most powerful. So any claim that a particular individual is a Maia must of necessity imply that this individual existed before the world and took part in the Music. That Melkor did corrupt many of the Maiar is beyond question, but on the other hand Tolkien all but shouts from the rooftops that there were other spirits in Ea, presumably created during the Music by both Eru and the Ainur, and there's a very clear reference to these in the Silmarillion: Quote:
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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08-07-2020, 03:00 PM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,034
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Pedantry alert! Even three, or at most seven ever existing, according to that Balrog note.
I wonder about a possible compromise with "many" rogs existing before Utmno was broken, and . . . maybe five (?) left at the time of Curufinwe's fall and the later fall of Gondolin -- then three for the Wrathy War -- and one left before the Company arrived in Moria. Or something else (maybe start with 7 surviving Utumno, leaving more rogs left for the WoW). Last edited by Galin; 08-07-2020 at 03:45 PM. |
08-07-2020, 07:02 PM | #11 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
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The question arises, what were the "dreadful spirits" that animated the werewolves?
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08-07-2020, 08:21 PM | #12 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,401
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Werewolves are just a subset of spirits (minds? existences? consciousnesses?) that inhabit Middle-earth. Some are more powerful than others. Some serve good, some serve evil, some serve no one in particular. Are they all rogue Ainu? We know at least some are not, and given that there were only 7 Balrogs this would be a staggering number of rogue Maiar unaccounted for. If I had to commit to an explanation, I would put the undefined spirits as clumps of "concentrated creation" - not totally free spirits as true Eruhini, spirits who are perhaps more tied to the world around them - maybe who are an expression of the world around them. Does the Ent create the forest, or the forest creates the Ent? There is absolutely no evidence to this view as opposed to others. I simply prefer Middle-earth with supernatural as part of the natural, a world where all sorts of unexplained creatures can co-exist without contradicting the rule of uniqueness of Eruhini in Creation. I prefer a world where Barazinbar really does rise in vengeful anger against travelers, and it's not just a quirk of weather patterns. I think it's more fun that way. Interestingly, sticking with that line of thought, that still leaves Orcs in the same dimension as Elves and Men. Creatures that kinda fend for themselves, are not attached to any particular element of the world, are free to choose their path. By the nature of their corruption they were made incompatible with the sunlight, and by a long history of wars they became soldiers and bandits. But they are technically still capable of organization, and of sympathy - and I even wanna say that they could hypothetically be capable of kindness... maybe. Maybe not. They are certainly capable of friendship, but so far as we know selfishness always trumped all the seedlings of good qualities.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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08-08-2020, 08:50 AM | #13 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
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One might also consider, based on some passages in Morgoth's Ring, the role of corrupted Elvish fear- whether those of Avari who had already turned to the Darkness before death, or those souls which refused the summons to Mandos. Tolkien treats these as malign "spirits" haunting the shadows, with whom the living should never have ado (those who do so are "the necromancers, and of the train of Sauron.") Could not some of these 'powered' the werewolves?
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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