The Istari's Magic.......and other beings?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Are the Istari the only ones to have have Magic? The Valar must because they are of a higher order, but could elves in some cases? Luthien did in the Silmarillion when she transformed into Thuringwethil. And Beren did too, did he transform into Draugluin or something else? Oh well, but besides Beren and Luthien, and the Istari, were there any other beings that possessed some magic?

[Daniel Telcontar]

Beren could not do magic, Draugluin was an evil creature ( sauron in disguise, I think). But elves could, at least the more powerful ones, like Galadriel. But magic is also very hard to define. You could say that elven magic was similar to Sauron's magic (the making of the rings), but I think the Valar did not use magic. It was something they could natural, like we can breathe.

[Kuruharan]

No, Draugluin was his own creature. He was the father of the werewolves and while Sauron was associated with werewolves and became one later, he is nowhere described as having sired the race.

And most convincingly of all, unlike Clark Kent and Superman, he and Sauron were in the same room at the same time...

Yet at length Draugluin escaped, and fleeing back into the tower he died before Sauron's feet; and as he died he told his master, 'Huan is there!'

[orlandoandsaran]

I want to ask....in the Hobbit, Gandalf said that Radagast is his cousin...I'm kinda wondering...is Saruman also his cousin? And were there only 3 of the wizards that came to Middle-earth or are there more in the West?
I mean...are there only 3 wizards or are there more?

[Daniel Telcontar]

There were five wizards/Istari. The two last ones, Alatar and Pallando never had any significance to the story of ME, like Gandalf and Saruman. When Gandalf calls Radagast his cousin is because it tells that they are related, and equal, unlike if Gandalf had said e.g. "uncle". They are not cousins in the way we think, but since they both are Maiar, you could say that they are related.

[orlandoandsaran]

Oh...okay then. But where are the two other wizards?
Did they do anything or did the other 3 wizards just came to Middle-Earth only?

[obloquy]

Nope, sorry, there are only three Istari: Radagast, Gandalf, and Saruman. Tell your friends.

[Mithadan]

Unfinished Tales has an essay on the 5 Wizards. Daniel has neamed them all correctly. After arriving in Middle Earth, Alatar and Pallando passed into the East and do not return.

[Arwen Imladris]

O.K. Others may correct me.

5 chief wizards came to ME:
1 - Sarumen (also known as Curunir)
2 - Gandalf (also known as Mithradir, the grey pilgrim, olorin)
3 - Radagast (also known as Aiwendil)

The Blue Wizards (there were two of them, they went into the east with Saruman but did not come back.)
The Blue Wizards are named:
4 - Alatar
5 - Pallando

I hope that sort of answers your questions.

For more info I suggest reading the section on the Istari in Unfinished Tales. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

but could elves in some cases?

Yes, most elves new about magic, yet some of course were more powerful and had the greater knowledge about it. Because of them using magic, they do not know that the 'mortal word' magic means. Remember Galadriel in LotR - FotR, when she asks Frodo and Sam to see her mirror, saying something like: 'You wished to see magic, didn't you? Well, now you can see magic, I think, for I do not know what the word means.'

This will not be the exact words, but it is the same meaning.
So yes, most elves could do magic.

. And Beren did too, did he transform into Draugluin or something else? Oh well, but besides Beren and Luthien, and the Istari, were there any other beings that possessed some magic?

Beren did indeed change into the form of Draugluin (this is, I believe, when they are going to Thangorodrim, after Sauron is overthrown and Draugluin is slain by Huán), but it wasn't him who did that. I don't believe that he knew magic. It was with the aid of Luthien Tinuviel that he gained that form, it was 'her magic'.

Yes, there were some other elves that could do magic, Galadriel and such. Maybe there were men too, I dunno, maybe the men of Nümenorë.

greetings,
lathspell

[akhtene]

Maybe there were men too, I dunno, maybe the men of Nümenorë.

I think Aragorn had some magic: he had the power to heal and he also could waalk the Paths of the Dead. Perhaps he inherited his power from his elvish ancestors. Or was it ancient lore?

[The Silver-shod Muse]

In the thread "Substituted Science" there is some good talk on magic and its relationship to science. As I said, is there any reason that magic could not be a higher science? The Elves were, without doubt, a more advanced and sophisticated race of people than any other in ME.

Similarly, if one was to travel into the distant future, what things would one see that could only be explained as magic? To the people of the future, however, it would be only a higher science.

[Sweatpea Knotwise]

Isn't it stated somewhere that of the nine men who were given rings of power, some of them became great sorcerers?

[*Varda*]

Well the 9 men ended up as Ringwraiths so I have doubts about them being sorcerers.

[Sweatpea Knotwise]

I am referring to the time after receiving the rings and before turning wraith. I was under the impression these men achieved a certain level of power before Sauron reeled them in, so to speak, but I cannot recall where I read about it.

[Elrian]

The nine Men given the 9 rings of power Were Kings and Sorcerers to begin with.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Sweatpea Knotwise]

So men could wield - or at least learn the use of - magic without the assistance of a ring of power? In that case, I would think that Tolkien's race of men have the potential for magic.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sweatpea Knotwise ]

[Elrian]

Not the kind or caliber of magic that would be used by the higher races of ME, nor like the magic that was in the rings.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Sarin Elfarmour]

I argee it's most likely that they had some limited magic but nothing close too the Valar, Maiar, or Istari after all gandalf came back from the grave didn't he?

[Anna Licumo]

The Elves, ones of Elven descent (such as Aragorn) and perhaps other races, had orenda magick. This is my belief, anyway.

[O'Boile]

Only the Valar and related races (Maiar) could do magic as we generally precieve it (ie. shooting bolts of lightning). Elvish magic is based more on preception and perciveriance and has been described by Tolkien as artistic. Examples include: disguising ones apperance, the mirror of Galadriel, making the rings of power (which Sauron helped create). A good example of my point is the rings of power. They don't zap people or anything (like Gandalf does from time to time), but do make a difference that can be percieved.

[Sarin Elfarmour]

i agree the rings of power had diferent effects the elves used what "magic" they had in an artistic way the dwarf rings were used to find riches and the nine rings of men are the only ones that did what Sauron intended them to, ensaring those who used them to his will

[gayare'dion]

and wasnt the mouth of sauron, well learned in sorcery, from sauron ? sorceery is basically magic right ? or is there a difference ? like could the mouth of sauron, shoot lightning bolts, and fireballs, and stuff like some of the istari

[Galorme]

The magic that men had was usually considered power of leadership, which was using magic to control the hearts of others. This can only be assumed, since it is said that the elven rings did not give the wearer "power over the hearts of others" suggesting that the others rings did. This is always a greater power, as you can have the ability to fire thunder or fireballs but if you can raise an army to your cause you have power above any of these things. I think this is why men rarely had "zap bamb" magic, more magic that helped them rule and impose their will.

[Maédhros]

There were five wizards/Istari. The two last ones, Alatar and Pallando never had any significance to the story of ME

From the Peoples of ME: The Five Wizards

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

Just something to think about.

[Dain]

That is interesting, so I thought I'd resurrect this since everybody is still confused about the Istari and how many of them or what colours they were... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Also, the discussion of Magic is interesting. I always disliked magic in mainstream, D&D fantasy, mostly because I'd read Tolkien first. I think it's important that there are only a few wizards, and for the rest of ME "magic" is much more subtle. However, from the "art" of the elves to the "sorcery" of fallen men, it seems like it is most related to craft and study, and most men who try their hand at it are corrupted by it... anyway, there are many threads on magic, power, science, etc, so I'll go read them...

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Plus the fact that Maedhros's quote in incorporated into Tolkien's 'Last Writings'. Tolkiens final word is often seen as the right answer (i.e Gil-Galad's father as Orodreth). Can this be seen as the definitive answer to the two wizards history?

Well the 9 men ended up as Ringwraiths so I have doubts about them being sorcerers.

Some of them were sorcerers. Probably Black Numenoreans. I think any Elf or Man or Dwarf can use/learn magic in Tolkiens Arda. All three races have their own "magic" unique to each. Dwarves are resistant or immune to mental domination. Men have the ability to forge their own fate, seperate from the fate of the other races/individuals which is already written. Elvish magic is used in many ways in Tolkiens books...the ability to read the future, their physical powers (walking on snow, firing arrows faster than the eye can follow etc), the making of magical items (Palantir, Silmarils, the rings etc), Galadriel aiding the ride of Eorl to Celebrant with some sort of magical mist or veil that hid the Rohirrim from evil eyes and made their horses run faster, and not tire.....and the list goes on.

The Numenoreans and black Numenoreans had sorcerers and others with magical abilities. The royal house of the Numenoreans (and of Gondor) had Maiar and Elvish blood. The mouth of Sauron at the black gate was some type of sorcerer. Also, in one of the books (can't remember which), it states Pallando and Alatar possibly, even probably, started magical cults or something similar in the east of Middle Earth. So men can definitely become sorcerers/wizards in middle-earth..under the right tutelage i guess.

[Iarhen]

Not only them, but others too. For example, the King of the Nazgul was also the King of the Witch Land of Angmar. A man, powerful sorcerer, that when he had a ring of men, his power increased.

And of course, the elves had magic, but a different kind. Such as Galadriel, etc. I think most of their magic came from their wisdom and fairness.

[Ainaserkewen]

I think, if I read right, that the istari have been granted leave of using powers of mind and hand. So they can fight with their magic and have power over other's minds(Sarumon) Of course the Valar have these powers too, but they probably couldn't use them to help middle-earth, that's what the istari were for. If the Valar could use all their powers whenever they wanted, to do whatever, there would be many dark lords competing all at once. Iluvatar probably made sure that this didn't happen, especially after Melkor! As for the elves, I be the Valar gave to them the secrets of magic, so they could use it for good.

[Son of Fire]

Don't forget also that Beorn and his descendants were shapeshifters, using magic and being magicians, but not wizards as that was te name saved for the istari. There were sorcerers and magicians as welll as witches (ie the witch king). The witch thing confuses me a little because male witches are warlocks, bu they still called the Lord of the Nazgul a witch. As for the Blue Wizards, I remember reading that they both started cults (in letters) and later, in UT that Tolkien backed off and said they weren't al bad and helped intheir own capacity, not starting cults, but pulling people form the worship of Morgoth and confusing their help for Sauron, fulfilling their mission. i guess he decided to make there be a coupl more good guys other than Gandalf in the Istari who succeeded in their mission.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Son of Fire ]