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08-02-2012, 12:16 PM | #1 |
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Sauron's loyalty after the First Age
Hello, having introduced myself in the Newcomers thread I thought I might bring up an issue which I have been musing upon for a while. The gist of it is this: what are your opinions on Sauron's loyalty after the First Age? Was he still devoted to Morgoth or was he pursuing his own agenda?
The reason I ask is that I see a lot of threads on forums around the internet with notions like "why Sauron stayed loyal after Morgoth's defeat", "would he try to bring Morgoth back somehow" and the like, but I felt that a lot of these rely on the assumption that Sauron particularly cared that his former master was gone. The confusion seems to primarily lie with Sauron's establishment of the Melkor-worshipping religion in Nśmenor. I personally have always viewed Sauron as a complete opportunist. He was, according to Morgoth's Ring, seduced to Morgoth's side because of Morgoth's apparent efficiency and decisiveness (compared to the Valar). By the Second Age, in Nśmenor, this ruthless pragmatism of Sauron's which Morgoth exploited had effectively gone full circle; it would seem to me that his establishment of Melkor-worship derived not from any genuine sense of reverence for his exiled master but purely out of convenience: "Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest." (Morgoth's Ring again) What do you think? While I do believe that Sauron's pursuit of his particular agenda caused him to ultimately, subconsciously, propagate the cause of the ongoing malice of Morgoth imbued as it was in the very substance of Middle-earth itself, I believe this was in the purely conceptual, metaphysical sense of "Morgoth" as it had come to exist as the general presence of evil potency in Arda, not in the fulfilment of the deliberate will of Melkor-Morgoth in actuality as a person or individual. Nor do I believe that any of his schemes, including the destruction of Nśmenor, the forging of the Rings or any of his other policies were enacted out of any deliberate continued loyalty on Sauron's part to Morgoth the person, who was exiled seemingly permanently from Arda and whose absence elevated Sauron from second-in-command to potentially complete primary lordship. How do you view the matter? |
08-02-2012, 02:33 PM | #2 | ||||
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Hello Zigur, welcome to the Barrow-downs. A highly interesting thread topic, and much of what you say is what I think as well.
"Opportunist" is a good word to use for Sauron. I can't track down the precsie reference at the moment, but Sauron first was drawn to Melkor's service because of Melkor's power and the expediency he was able to enact his plans. Morgoth seemed the "I want this now" Dark-Lord, where Sauron was more calculated and thoughtful: Quote:
Eventually, Morgoth starts slipping into nihilism, where all he cares about is complete and utter destruction. Morgoth, being unable to control becomes like an 8-yo having a temper tantrum. "Fine, if I can't have it my way, I'm just going to trash the place." He recklessly throws in armies and spends resources, because all he wants total destruction. On the other hand, Sauron never falls to nihilism: Quote:
As far as the Melkor-religion he was creating in Numenor. Again, this is, I feel, Sauron just being an opportunist: Quote:
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08-02-2012, 09:43 PM | #3 |
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I second Boro, this is a very interesting topic.
I agree with what has been said, and "opportunist" seems quite a fitting word to describe Sauron. It's really not that difficult a choice for him: either you work hard to do the near-impossible of bringing your old master back, or you become the big bad bully yourself. Knowing Sauron's lust for power, his choice is clear. I doubt he ever felt any devotion to Morgoth beyond the basic "while he's there he gives me power" feeling. So I doubt Sauron had any great loyalty in the first place. I like the sound of the idea that Sauron's Morgoth cult is really subconsciously worshiping "Morgoth's Ring", not the individual himself.
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08-03-2012, 12:24 AM | #4 |
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Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.
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08-03-2012, 01:33 AM | #5 | |
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Wikipedia's articles on Sauron and Morgoth actually contributed to my motivation towards contemplating this topic. Once upon a time (before I edited it actually) the article on Morgoth claimed that Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth after the First Age but gave no evidence from Professor Tolkien's own writing to support this assertion. Indeed almost all of the evidence which I mentioned from "Myths Transformed" along with the note from Letter 183, both of which were kindly provided in detail by Boromir88, would suggest to me that after the War of Wrath Sauron was pursuing his own agenda. Morgoth had become, more or less, irrelevant beyond being a phantom from Sauron's personal history he could use to corrupt the Nśmenoreans and other Men he duped into perceiving him as a divinity.
While I believe that Sauron was indeed loyal to Morgoth in the First Age, and was motivated to this allegiance initially due to admiration for Morgoth's ambition and wilfulness and later because being Morgoth's second-in-command was a position of enormous authority he could never have achieved on his own given the circumstances of the First Age, I don't believe that loyalty persisted after Morgoth's exile. This quote from Morgoth's Ring seems pertinent: Quote:
I think by and large the confusion that his loyalty was more enduring seems to derive from a misinterpretation of the events of the Akallabźth. As for this "bringing Morgoth back" idea, I'm pretty sure that's just a silly notion I read somewhere with no basis whatsoever in the Professor's writing, and possibly derives from a desire some might have for Tolkien's world to be more like the heavily serialised Fantasy sagas of more modern times (the plot of A Darkness at Sethanon is something like that I believe). |
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08-03-2012, 01:40 AM | #6 |
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You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.
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08-03-2012, 02:00 AM | #7 |
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By "did Sauron stay loyal" what I am asking is this: after the First Age and Morgoth's banishment into the Void, did Sauron remain devoted to Morgoth? Did he actively, intentionally continue to pursue Morgoth's cause? Did he desire to further Morgoth's plans for Morgoth's sake rather than his own? All evidence I can find (and which has been brought up in this thread) suggests that the answer is no. With Morgoth out of the picture he was furthering his own goals, pursuing his own agenda, and the only allegiance he owed was to himself. He was now his own master, not the obedient servant he had been in the First Age, and all the times he exploited the memory of Morgoth and the products of his reign (Orcs and the like) were for the sake of his own power and dominion, not about trying to bring Morgoth's thwarted schemes to fruition.
If there is evidence to the contrary I would of course be very interested to read it! |
08-03-2012, 02:29 AM | #8 | ||
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EDIT:So change the wikipedia article |
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08-03-2012, 02:57 AM | #9 | ||||
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While I agree that because Morgoth was the origin of evil in the world, by being evil Sauron was continuing what Morgoth started, it seems to me that the only way that constitutes loyalty is in an unintentional and metaphysical way. The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions. Quote:
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08-03-2012, 03:34 AM | #10 | ||||
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1. Go back to valinor and ask for pardon or judgement. 2. Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people. Remember even when Morgoth was loose in middle earth and tormented the children the valas did nothing. They do not directly intervene, therefore by staying in middle earth Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth. Sure one could say he became his own master, but that is ONLY because Morgoth was not in the freckin world. That is like saying if a general is killed in battle the soldier all of a sudden isn't loyal to the dead general because he now has to order himself around and keep fighting the enemy. So Sauron was loyal to Morgoth til the very end. |
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08-03-2012, 04:03 AM | #11 | ||
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If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways. Even you would not call that "staying loyal". I'm afraid it is you who does not understand what loyalty means. If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself. He followed Morgoth because this service allowed him to rise and to have quite a large chunk of power. He did not actively, physically betray Morgoth, but he would not have died for Morgoth's sake either - which true and strong loyalty does mean. In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No! He named himself Lord in his own right and whatever. After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet. So quit the wikipedia campaign.
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08-03-2012, 04:51 AM | #12 | |||||||
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b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you. Quote:
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AS IF...as I said not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth, he had no other choice but to act on his own in the 2nd and 3rd ages since morgoth was not in the world. Like I don't get how you can go from.... War of Wrath (Morgoth Sauron defeated) Morgoth thrown out of the world and chained Sauron loose Messes around with the children NOT LOYAL??? Your logic is clearly flawed... |
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08-03-2012, 05:06 AM | #13 | ||||||||
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Sauron did not go down the path of evil for the sake of evil, but out of a love of order (quoted earlier) which was repeatedly perverted to a lust for power. Professor Tolkien also makes this comment in the letter which is included in the Preface to the Second Edition of The Silmarillion: Quote:
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08-03-2012, 06:30 AM | #14 |
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how do the Forces of Evil in Arda (like 'Mairon', like Melkor) accomplish their goals to overthrow the One via language and the categorizing meanings of linguistic Thought categories, would you say? How are both these wayward entities doing so in the First, Second, Third, or any Age, without their specific physical presences?
do you think the hierarchy of authority in the Spiritual world reflects also a hierarchy of knowledge production? Maybe that is why Sauron will service Melkor at the End (even though we all know they lose), because none of Sauron's efforts will be able to best Melkor (isn't that precisely why the Valar are made different in innate power from Maiar? aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?
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08-03-2012, 07:04 AM | #15 | ||||
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As for Morgoth, I know Professor Tolkien mused upon but ultimately rejected the idea of "Melkian" languages from which the Black Speech and other dark tongues derived, but what strikes me most about Morgoth is how often he is described as a liar, and a liar to himself as well as to others. From Valaquenta: Quote:
Just a few ideas that might be relevant. |
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08-03-2012, 07:40 AM | #16 |
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ah yes! and your deployment of the rich, evocative connotations of color-code demonstrates very plainly to this audience that you understood my point about language and speech acts, now doesn't it?
how, then, are we then transmuting the meanings of Darkness or Blackness when we understand their use by the Vala Irmo?
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08-03-2012, 10:03 AM | #17 | |
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I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.
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08-03-2012, 11:21 AM | #18 | |
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agreed! the question of the medieval principle of loyalty as a ground principle of the monarchical, feudal state, for which the whole of Arda is made available, is altogether a different question than the discourse of naming by which we know these Bodiless, Timeless entities who fell into Shadow. the one entity known to the Incarnates as Sauron seems to prefer the tactic of goeteia in his working out of the strategy of total control over the Little Kingdom; the greater entity known as Melkor (who is the fount of Theological Evil in this legendarium) prefers the tactic of magia (and thus the suffusion of the physical atoms of Arda with his infernal essence)..... ....however, let us not forget that the names by which these Bodiless entities are known to us in the official, authoritative texts are given to them by Noldor, the Deep Eldar - and are thus subject to the inevitable bias of natural incarnation: this means that the transcribed, translated meanings of these names convey by definition the biases of the perceiving minds of their aboriginal Elvish authors, who, although they do have better access to a universe outside of four spacetime dimensions, do not seem able to perceive the wider canopy of possible meanings of color, shape, quantity, etc.
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08-03-2012, 01:11 PM | #19 | |||
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What I'm wondering, in all of this, is does anyone think Saruman was loyal to Sauron?
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08-03-2012, 01:32 PM | #20 |
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A lot of fair points, but I'm sure Morgoth would be pleased with Sauron. What he did in middle earth when he wasn't around. Loyal or not Sauron is the puppet of morgoth and will be til the end. You say Morgoth wanted chaos and Sauron order, which might be true but still the way both of them tried to accomplish their goals were much alike. Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion. That their end goals are slightly different doesn't matter, Morgoth would have been pleased...very pleased. That is all that matters. I don't think we can for certain say if Sauron considered himself greater than morgoth in any way.
Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself. |
08-03-2012, 08:10 PM | #21 |
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Mumriken, I've been reading this most interesting thread, and I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood both the original question and the subsequent points made by other posters. I believe the problem here is one of semantics that is, you seem very focussed on your own definition of the word "loyal". Zigur, Boro and G55 are clearly using it to mean "consciously serving another", whereas by "loyal" you appear to mean "furthering another's ends, deliberately or not". Do you see the difference?
Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?
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08-03-2012, 09:24 PM | #22 | |
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08-03-2012, 09:34 PM | #23 |
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Eäralda Halatiriva I believe I have explained the distinction already. Read my post again.
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08-03-2012, 09:38 PM | #24 | |
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but i see still no dilemma between conscious and unconscious, as you seem to be trying to mean it
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08-03-2012, 09:50 PM | #25 |
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Then we are at an impasse. I mean, I really don't think I could put it plainer than I have already, sorry.
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08-03-2012, 09:55 PM | #26 | |
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keep up the interesting sharing around this Round Table, people!
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08-03-2012, 10:15 PM | #27 | |
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Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.
Sauron was not interested in Morgoth's return, because Sauron saw himself as "Morgoth returned." As his pride grew, Sauron was loyal to himself, he no longer worried about the Valar intervening and this includes Morgoth. It's hard to argue he remained loyal to Morgoth (as in being loyal to a person/being. For example, as Sam's unyielding loyalty to Frodo, and denying the Ring's influence because of his loyalty to his master.), when Sauron fashioned himself as Morgoth. Now Mumriken brings up a good point I had not considered: Quote:
It's not much different from Durin's Bane. After Morgoth's defeat, Durin's Bane fled and made himself a nice, humble home in Moria. Durin's Bane was not serving Sauron, nor was he serving Morgoth. However, when unwanted guests came barging in to disturb his retirement plans, he simply kicked them out. My point here is, it's hard for evil to work together, and thus how can it remain loyal to another evil? It is always searching for the acquisition of more personal gain and power. Even if desiring the same, in the end there can only be one "Evil Lord." Saruman understood this when he tried to fool Sauron by joining him. Sauron capitalized on his opportunity when Morgoth was sent to the Void.
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08-03-2012, 10:36 PM | #28 | |
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precisely! there are different interpretations of a word, as a Sign you've grasped it, Jewel of Faith!!! does the image of a thing not partake in the essence of its template? can Sauron (as he is known in later Ages) propagate Theological Evil without having come to understand what Evil means in itself? ^^ can Energy exist without a Source? thanks for sharing with us your beliefs. we learn much from you!
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08-04-2012, 05:52 AM | #29 |
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Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. However Gollum feared Sauron. Could one say the same of Morgoth/Sauron's relationship? If when Morgoth corrupted Mairon or Sauron to his side, was it out of fear Sauron joined him?
If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal. Also there was no way Sauron could free Morgoth. So that he never tried to free Morgoth doesn't mean he wasn't loyal to him, because there was no way he could do that anyway so. I'm still going with this: Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself. |
08-04-2012, 06:37 AM | #30 | ||||
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But to change things up I thought I'd examine it from the other point of view anyway: in what ways was Sauron still following Morgoth? So I'll offer some different material from the Professor. Take this comment of Sauron's doings, for example, from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age": Quote:
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08-04-2012, 07:15 AM | #31 |
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I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty. Morgoth had, "secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule." [MR, p. 52] He followed Morgoth, "because of his admiration of strength" and soon in the 2nd Age, "he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative" and then, "claimed to be Morgoth returned" at the end of the 3rd Age. Sauron, "represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as possible" [Letter 183]. In another letter we are told how Sauron is attached to Morgoth as Gandalf is to Manwe. Also as Gandalf was his opposite so was Manwe, Morgoth's.
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08-04-2012, 07:30 AM | #32 | ||
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08-04-2012, 08:40 AM | #33 | ||||
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English isn't my first language so excuse my english anyway...
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1. Why did he not do so? 2. Why did not Sauron do this? Is it possible that if Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, the reason Sauron did not follow in his footsteps was because he was unable do so? Sauron was far from as powerful as Morgoth, that is why he created the rings to control all others. Unlike Morgoth who could actually challenge all others and win! So I think it's a bit unfair that you say that in order for Sauron to have been loyal to Morgoth he must have done these things: -Tried to free Morgoth (Impossible) -Tried to destroy everything (Impossible for him) You make it impossible for him to have been loyal to morgoth by saying that. Quote:
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Yeah when he apparently did so it was for his own sake...whose other sake would it be for?? Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree. I still hold this view and your post has so far only encouraged me to do so. Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself. |
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08-04-2012, 09:01 AM | #34 | |||
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Certainly Morgoth was not in Middle Earth at this time? Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?
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08-04-2012, 04:51 PM | #35 | ||||
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I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Nśmenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Nśmenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell? |
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08-04-2012, 05:52 PM | #36 | |||||
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I hope I don't have to paste this again... Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself. |
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08-04-2012, 05:59 PM | #37 | |
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But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However: I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else. |
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08-04-2012, 07:04 PM | #38 | ||
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Can I just stress again how much I take objection to being called stupid? Making personal insults against me doesn't make your case any stronger.
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But because I want a healthy discussion I thought I'd provide some more examples for Morgoth's lingering influence in Sauron's life. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings at least twice name Sauron as "Sauron, servant of Morgoth" in reference to events that occurred in the Second and Third Ages. Sauron is at least still recognised as Morgoth's underling after Morgoth's own defeat. There is also the note from Letter 183 we've mentioned which I admit to finding very intriguing: Quote:
May I just say however that in regards to your analogy I do find the idea of Sauron being Morgoth's "wife" to be rather amusing. |
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08-04-2012, 07:15 PM | #39 |
Laconic Loreman
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I'd hate to see what has been an insightful thread and brought up many different perspectives be closed down.
Remember, make your posts on topic and no need for the ad hominen arguments: Barrow-downs Forum Policies & Guidelines for Forum Posting
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Fenris Penguin
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08-04-2012, 07:35 PM | #40 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Mumriken, I have no idea why *this* particular topic, of all things, should be such a sore point with you, or whether this is just how you normally react to disagreement but either way it's gone far enough. As a longstanding member of this site, I can tell you that the way you've been behaving is just not on here. Kindly tone it down.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." Elmo. |
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