The Ring & Bilbo

[SonofUgluk]

Hi there everyone , first post (after my introduction) so please be gentle with me I've got lots of questions but will only post one at a time so as not to swamp the board . One question that's been intriguing me - why when Bilbo wears the ring , does he not enter the 'wraith world' and have his sight and sound etc affected like frodo & sam do when they wear it ? Thanks , Dan

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Interesting question - not sure if perhaps it hasn't been addressed in Tolkien's letters (anyone knows?) or something, but I would say that it has to do with the "degree of corruptedness" of the person, first; second, maybe also the rising power of Sauron caused the Ring to have "stronger influence". Also, Frodo started seeing the stuff mostly after he had gone through the experience of being almost stabbed to death by a Morgul-blade, and Sam saw that only in Mordor, where the power of the Ring was certainly altered considerably...

But that is just my own guess.

[Inziladun]

Along the lines of what Legate said, I would note also that the entrance of the "wraith-world" wasn't noticeable to Frodo until he had his experience wearing the One in the presence of the Ringwraiths on Weathertop. This despite the fact that he had worn it in the Shire while hiding from one of them. I would agree then that Frodo's wound had something to do with his noticing his differences of perception while wearing the One, and that Sam's similar observation was due to his proximity to Mt. Doom.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed. And maybe just to say what I had mentioned in my first post, but it had just occured to me now that I could say it more clearly: let us remember that Sauron had, since the time of Bilbo, openly proclaimed himself the lord of Mordor again, and had rebuilt Barad-dur. Gandalf makes a big deal out of that event, so I believe we should too.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This despite the fact that he had worn it in the Shire while hiding from one of them.

Frodo didn't put on the Ring on this occasion. He was tempted to, and found himself thinking that Gandalf's advice seemed absurd - "After all, I am still in the Shire," he thinks. I think he gets as far as taking the Ring out and thinking of putting it on, but then Gildor & Co. arrive and the Rider disappears, as do thoughts of donning the Ring.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Frodo didn't put on the Ring on this occasion. He was tempted to, and found himself thinking that Gandalf's advice seemed absurd - "After all, I am still in the Shire," he thinks. I think he gets as far as taking the Ring out and thinking of putting it on, but then Gildor & Co. arrive and the Rider disappears, as do thoughts of donning the Ring.

Pfft. You're right, of course. I should really refrain from halfway reading through things here when my mind is really elsewhere.

Ok, he did put it on in Bombadil's house, and noted no enhancement of his senses. So I think Legate still has the right of it.

[Inziladun]

Another thought struck me: what about Gollum's time in the wraith-world? Does repeated wearing of the Ring for a long period, as was the case with him, lead to such a change in the senses, giving a somewhat permanent affinity for the shadow-world just as a wound from a Morgul-blade? That would explain Gollum's apparent extraordinary abilities of sight, smell, and hearing.

[SonofUgluk]

Interesting responses guys thanks - so the 'wraith world' and sensory enhancement aspects are more than likely related to proximity to the nazgul themselves and/or sauron ? I was pondering that maybe the 'wraith' aspect came in to play once the 9 left minas morgul and crossed into the shire , but if physical proximity to the wraiths and sauron had this effect , why did bilbo not experience it while using the ring in the elf-kings dungeons in the Hobbit , when sauron was dwelling close by in Dol Guldur ?

[SonofUgluk]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Another thought struck me: what about Gollum's time in the wraith-world? Does repeated wearing of the Ring for a long period, as was the case with him, lead to such a change in the senses, giving a somewhat permanent affinity for the shadow-world just as a wound from a Morgul-blade? That would explain Gollum's apparent extraordinary abilities of sight, smell, and hearing.

Hi Inzil I think Gollums enhanced senses came from the fact he lived in 'darkness' under the mountains for so long - in the same way blind people find their senses of hearing and smell enhanced due to their absence of sight , their other senses compensate , so gollums 'other' senses became enhanced from living in the dark for so long . This is why he 'hates' the sun and only wishes to travel under the cloak of the moon (if he travels at all , he hates both the sun and the moon , he'd rather live with no illumination whatsoever) . It will be interesting to see in the film of the Hobbit how Jackson deals with the issue of the 'wraith world' aspect of the wearing of the ring , I think tolkein maybe avoided that aspect as the Hobbit was supposed to be a childrens book which is maybe why he avoided that 'spooky' side of the wielding of the ring ...

[Galadriel55]

Welcome to the Downs, SonofUgluk! (nice nick! )

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Another thought struck me: what about Gollum's time in the wraith-world? Does repeated wearing of the Ring for a long period, as was the case with him, lead to such a change in the senses, giving a somewhat permanent affinity for the shadow-world just as a wound from a Morgul-blade? That would explain Gollum's apparent extraordinary abilities of sight, smell, and hearing.

Even if the Ring had no such effect on his senses, he still lived in almost complete darkness (with a couple odd goblin torches here and there, perhaps) for... how many years? Living in the dark is just as sense-sharpening as living in fog.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by SonofUgluk

why when Bilbo wears the ring , does he not enter the 'wraith world' and have his sight and sound etc affected like frodo & sam do when they wear it ?

The real (external) answer is pretty simple but not so satisfying.

When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the ring was simply a device for helping Bilbo through his adventures - interesting and fun, but not particularly diabolical.

When he started writing LOTR, he selected the ring as a connecting link and source of the crisis to be faced. In so doing, the ring became much more powerful and intrusive (on the wearer) becoming "The Ring" (capitalized), the ONE Ring of power.

Tolkien rewrote the Riddles chapter of the Hobbit explaining that the earlier version (in which Gollum offered Bilbo the ring as the prize for winning the contest) was Bilbo's "lie" (in an attempt to legitimize his possession of the ring). Gandalf referred to this in Shadow of the Past "clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its wearer immediately".

However, he never rewrote the description of wearing the ring from Bilbo's POV (point of view) so we are left with Bilbo apparently having clear sight when wearing the ring - - - AND we are left with speculative attempts to explain the difference within the framework of the story.

Of course, we "could" always assume that Bilbo really DID have wraith-world vision but just decided to omit such from his memoirs. Maybe he just figured it was no big deal - or maybe he thought people would think less of him if he admitted to being so affected by the ring?

[Galadriel]

That's a very interesting question. Personally, I feel Bilbo did NOT enter the 'wraith-world'. I think Tolkien would have mentioned it in one of his major works if the Ring had such a profound effect on Bilbo. Also, Sauron's power was still comparatively weak when Bilbo found the Ring, indeed I feel it was so till he left it with Frodo. And, as has been mentioned, Frodo was stabbed by a Morgul-blade before he put on the Ring, and this might have been an influenting factor.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

And, as has been mentioned, Frodo was stabbed by a Morgul-blade before he put on the Ring, and this might have been an influenting factor.

No, he was stabbed after. After he was stabbed, the most he could do is take it off before he fell unconscious.

[blantyr]

I'm of the all of the above school. The ring gets strong as one gets closer to Mt. Doom. The ring bearer learns to use it more with experience. The power to sense the wraith world might only activate in the presence of beings of the wraith world. The more one uses the ring, or the more times one is stabbed by a morgue knife, the closer one is to fading, and the closer one is to the wraith world.

And the Professor was making it up as he went along. I think many of his fans are much more concerned about consistency than he was. He did pretty darn well, but his is a messy world.

In this case, unless someone knows of a letter where he addressed the point, I don't know that we can say what factor was more important than what others.

[jallanite]

When Sam put on the Ring, Sam also experienced enhanced senses.

Puddleglum’s answer is obviously a right one, that Tolkien, when he first wrote about the Ring, had not considered it as more than a magic ring of invisibility of indeterminate origins. That said, this answer does not work for a reader who is reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as views of a coherent world.

But when Frodo first puts on the Ring in Tom Bombadil’s house there is no indication that Frodo experiences anything more untoward than Bilbo. The same is true when Frodo accidentally puts on the Ring at The Prancing Pony. When Frodo puts on the Ring at Weathertop, the only sign of enhanced senses is that Frodo now sees beneath the black wrappings of the Ringwraiths and they appear clearly to Frodo, their long grey robes and silver helms visible. Bilbo and not encountered wraiths of any sort, nor had Frodo previously when wearing the Ring.

Frodo, at the end of his flight to Rivendell, again sees the wraiths more clearly, but this is connected with Frodo’s morgul-wound, not with the Ring. Frodo is not wearing the Ring.

It is only when Frodo puts on the Ring at Amon Hen that he sees more than he should see naturally and that he perceives the Eye almost see him. Immediately before providing the visions seen by Frodo, Tolkien writes:

He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only Shadows: the Ring was on him.

But for Tolkien’s mention of the Ring in connection with where Frodo seems to be, the reader might be content to imagine some enchantment of Amon Hen, ‘the Hilll of Sight’, and possibly some enchantment of Amon Hen is also involved.

Frodo never puts on the Ring again until the last time.

Only when Sam puts the Ring on is Sam at once “aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was dimmed”, something not said before. The Ring translates the meaning of the Orcs who are not speaking in the Common Speech. Tokien writes:

He [Sam] heard them [the Orcs] both clearly, and he understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself. Certainly the Ring had grown greatly in power as it approached the places of its forging; but one thing it did not confer, and that was courage.

Amon Hen was not far away and the increase in power of the Ring as it approached Mount Doom would also explain the additional power the Ring showed when Frodo wore it not long before.

One might also suggest that the Elves of Mirkwood mostly spoke their own Silvan Elvish tongue among themselves and that this was translated in Bilbo’s understanding to the Common Speech, although Bilbo was unaware that this was occurring and, at that time, the Ring was nowhere near Mount Doom.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, he was stabbed after. After he was stabbed, the most he could do is take it off before he fell unconscious.

Oops! My mistake. *blushes*