TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Nerwen]

Nerwen the Resplendent, Supreme Ruler of the Greater Haradian Empire, lightly drummed her long scarlet nails on the gold-scaled, ruby-eyed snake’s head that terminated the armrest of her throne. The clacking sound carried through the gilded emptiness of the vast chamber, but the black-clad figure who stood before her– stood! – when all others must prostrate themselves!– gave no sign of unease.

“It is well that your Imperial Splendour consider my Lord’s offer of alliance, O She Who Is Brighter than the Moon,” the Envoy said, daring to meet her gaze with strange eyes grey as distant rain. “But pray do not hesitate too long. My Master has reclaimed his realm and begun the rebuilding of the Dark Tower; his power now grows apace, and great shall be the rewards for those who aid him. Others may find him– less generous.”

By her side, her Royal Executioner stirred, hand toying with a loop of gleaming wire, and a sharp hiss of breath carried all the way from the great carven door where the Captain of the Guard waited. The Empress had but to lift her hand, and these her most faithful servants would instantly strike down this insolent stranger who had the temerity to almost-threaten their mistress.

She made no such move. It was true that the cup the Lord of the Black Land held out to her contained more than a trace of bitterness. When she had first ascended the Serpent Throne, a decade since, the realms of Harad had been only a collection of petty and often squabbling kingdoms– and now it seemed the empire she had forged in blood and fire must itself become a mere vassal state of Mordor. But these were foolish thoughts. There could be no shame, even for her, in serving an overlord who was no mortal but a living god– and nothing but glory in the prospect of crushing Gondor once and for all. There were so many humilations to avenge.

“So be it,” she said at length. “Harad will make alliance with the Lord of Mordor, our friend of old.”

“A wise decision, O She Who Is Brighter than the Moon. My Master will welcome the news.” The Envoy seemed to relax, a little, and for the first time the pale face showed a hint of emotion. The Empress thought it might have been relief. Fleetingly, she wondered if the Envoy were really so confident as appearances suggested. The young Black Númenórean sorcerer could not have been long in the service of Mordor, after all– and she had always heard the Dark Lord tolerated failure even less than she did herself.

But the feelings of underlings were no concern of hers. “And what, then, is this other matter? This information so secret you requested a private audience with us?”

“Your Splendour, there are spies in the Palace,” the Envoy declared flatly.

“What of it?” The Empress was genuinely puzzled. “They will be found out, tormented and fed to the sacred serpents, as always. Is it really for such trivial matters that you trouble our Imperial ear?”

“These are no ordinary spies, O She of Matchless Perfection. I have learned that a certain foul wizard, here I believe called Incánus–”

“The name is known to us,” the Empress said grimly. “Go on.”

“I have discovered that he has used his vile magic to disguise four Men of Gondor, ancient foe of both our peoples, so that they can walk undetected amongst us. They could, Your Splendour, be anyone.”

“Anyone?’’ The Empress clutched the cold serpent’s head. It seemed darker suddenly, as if a shadow had passed across the windowed cupola overhead, blocking the evening light. She was unpleasantly aware of the Executioner’s presence, so close at her side, so dangerously close…

“No-one…” the grey eyes closed, “…no-one in this chamber, I think… Yes, I am sure of it. I can sense thoughts, sometimes, and these two,” with a brief, half-mocking glance at the Captain and Executioner, “fairly blaze with loyalty for your Imperial Splendour. If only all others were so faithful– or so easy to read. Not,” the Envoy added quickly, “that my arts won’t serve me, but it may take time, and I’d need to watch, and listen… Alas! Many of your Splendour’s people seem to be– apprehensive of me– for some reason. I fear they will be too guarded in my presence…”

“Then we will fight fire with fire,” said the Empress, with the decisiveness that had carried her to many a hard-won victory. “Envoy, you must disguise yourself also. And my servants, too– they shall aid you. Go all of you– seek out this evil and destroy it!”

The Envoy of Mordor gave a somewhat minimal bow, while the Captain of the Guard and Royal Executioner abased themselves in the proper manner, touching their heads to the floor and intoning, “We live to serve, O She for Whom the Stars Do Shine.”

“Wait–“ said the Empress, as the three turned to leave. “Envoy–we have heard of a young acolyte of the Serpent cult, said to be near as skilled as yourself in the sorcerous arts. Might such a one, too, be of help?”

“Perhaps, your Splendour, perhaps– if this Acolyte proves truly loyal…”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Night One has begun. Night people, start doing Night things.

NOTE: use of epithets is in no way a clue to the identity of the gifteds. So there.

[Nerwen]

As night fell on the Palace, the figure who had been watching on the roof of the throneroom slipped quietly into the deserted, out-of-the way courtyard where three others waited.

“Well, you made it, then,” said one of them. “I’d have wagered you’d break your neck up there– it must be true there’s Elvish blood in Dol Amroth. –Bad, is it?”

“Very bad. Curse these Southrons! Yes: she’s gone over to the Enemy. What did you expect?”

“Nothing less– but you know our realms are hardly prepared for this. Morgoth take that woman! If it weren’t for her the Haradrim would still be bickering amongst themselves.”

“You know,” said a third, “I believe that if “She who is Brighter than the Moon” were to meet with an… accident… the empire might simply fall apart.”

“Hmmn… do you suppose the Grey Pilgrim really had something like this is mind when he enchanted us?” asked the fourth member of the group.

“Oh, what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him. Besides, it’s in a good cause.”

“But that’s not all,” said the climber of Dol Amroth. “That Black renegade is on to us, and has told the Empress. I fear we may not get out of the Palace alive as it is.”

The four of them looked at one another. “Well, then,” said the one who has spoken first, “nothing to lose, have we?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The morning sun glittered on the spires and domes of the Palace. Even at this hour, the wind blew like a hot breath from the desert, but the coolness of night still lingered in the marble hall that was the ante-chamber to the throne room. Welcome it must have been, since the chamber was crowded with those seeking the favour of the great ruler as well as the slaves and performers who had been selected to entertain them.

The great doors, whose rich carvings and inlays told of the many bloody campaigns on which the Empire had been built, had now been kept shut an hour past their usual time, and the throng was starting to grow restive or alarmed, according to the nature of its individual members. One particularly impatient man, a wealthy merchant by his robes, shouldered his way through the crowd to confront Eruhen, the Chief Eunuch. “Look here! How much longer are we expected to wait? I’ll have you know I’m meant to have an audience with the Empress herself. My coffee is the finest, my camels the best bred in all–”

“She Who is Brighter then the Moon,” said the eunuch coldly, in his clear, high-pitched voice, “may make the Prince of Khand wait until the inland sea goes dry if it should please her Splendour– let alone some cheating merchant!” He clapped his hands. “Be off with you!”

The merchant was too shocked and humiliated to protest– or to notice the alacrity with which Eruhen spun to question the panting messenger-girl who had just run up from the direction of the Empress’s private chambers.

“Well, Sally? How long before her Implerial Splendour is ready?”

“Master, there’s something wrong!” the girl gasped. “The Empress’s hand-maiden says there’s no answer from Her Splendour! No answer all morning!”

Eruhen found the outer doors of the Empress’s quarters already opened. A guard-lieutenant and a diaphanously-robed slave-girl were listening at the doors to the Imperial Sleeping Chamber with anxious looks on their faces.

“You are the handmaiden?” Eruhen asked the girl.

“Yes, Master– Rikae is this one’s unworthy name, if it please you, Master… Oh, what can the matter be? She Who Is Brighter than the Moon has always before heard this slave’s knock in the morning!”

Eruhen peered at the guard. “I don’t think I know you. Who are you? And where is the Captain?”

“Lietenant Shastanis Althreduin– and… I… well, I’m not quite sure where the Captain is, actually… but there can’t be anything wrong. Why, I’d never fail her Imperial Splendour! I have not moved from my post all night!"

“Open the doors!” the Chief Eunuch ordered.

“What!” the guardman gasped. “But– but her Splendour– will– she will–“

“Open them!”

Shaking with fear, the lieutenant pushed open the door.

The chamber was carpeted in scarlet and gold, and scarlet were the tapestried curtains that hung around the royal bed. But none were so vivid as the blood that drenched the silken sheets and pillows where the Empress lay, or the gaping wound in her throat.

A trail of bloody prints led across the room to the open window.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden.
Eruhen –Court eunuch.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand.

Dead
The Empress of Harad (mod).


Day One has begun.

[Thinlómien]

First post. Maybe the second time in my life. Yay! It's great to be playing again. *stretches* We'll see how rusty I am.

So, shall we lynch the loud (me) or the quiet (the rest of you)?
Shall we all now flock to protect Shasta since the Moddess Goddess's marvelous narration surely leaves no doubt about the identity of the seer?

And since someone will say it aloud at some point anyway, we might as well get done with it in the first post: please be extra careful with the lynches in this game! Must avoid last-minute votes in this game.

Anyone want to start speculation about the mysterious acolyte?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So, shall we lynch the loud (me) or the quiet (the rest of you)?

Or the loud who consistently don't post anything substantive?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And since someone will say it aloud at some point anyway, we might as well get done with it in the first post: please be extra careful with the lynches in this game! Must avoid last-minute votes in this game.

It's likely I'll be voting long before DL as a rule here. It falls into my exercise time.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyone want to start speculation about the mysterious acolyte?

We'd need at least some facts to speculate, and I don't think there are many, although an "acolyte" is generally a person of high rank, or one with fervent beliefs, I think. Xe doesn't count in the tally. Good? Evil? Neutral? Cinnamon? (Sorry, got carried away with thoughts of breakfast )

[Nerwen]

All right, narration's up. Sorry about the delay.

–Incidentally, the Royal Executioner has yet to pick a target. The Empress is most displeased (even in the afterlife).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

We'd need at least some facts to speculate, and I don't think there are many, although an "acolyte" is generally a person of high rank, or one with fervent beliefs, I think. Xe doesn't count in the tally. Good? Evil? Neutral? Cinnamon? (Sorry, got carried away with thoughts of breakfast )

Methinks it's an apprentice or a follower of a kind, and has something to do with religion. (I checked: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acolyte) The narration also implies he is related to the seer and can choose his side (or at least may change sides, maybe not on his own will). So we have some kind of cursed-kind of person? An assistant of the seer who changes sides if attacked by the wolves? Ugh, sounds disastrous.


edit: xed with the Empress's ghost

[Thinlómien]

Given the recent events, I think honour would demand Shasta and I go nilp because of our failures at serving the Empress. Oh woe!

Speaking of voting, I HATE RANDOM VOTES. THEY DON'T SERVE THE VILLAGE IN ANY WAY. DON'T MAKE THEM IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ME ANGRY AND SUSPICIOUS OF YOU. Now that I have said it, I hope I can refrain from ranting about it for the rest of the game... (Fyi, Eru and Nate, this is my pet peeve. Please don't freak out.)

Also, I'll most likely be voting pretty close to the DL every day, I think, as it's 2pm my time and as a student I tend to have free time in such weird hours as in the middle of the day or in the morning...

[Thinlómien]

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Now this early bird will shut up and go for lunch and then to work. You can expect me to be back in six hours or so.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Methinks it's an apprentice or a follower of a kind, and has something to do with religion. (I checked: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acolyte) The narration also implies he is related to the seer and can choose his side (or at least may change sides, maybe not on his own will). So we have some kind of cursed-kind of person? An assistant of the seer who changes sides if attacked by the wolves? Ugh, sounds disastrous.


edit: xed with the Empress's ghost

I also got the impression that the Acolyte would be somebody who could switch sides, yes. The idea I had when reading it was that it could be something along the lines of a Seer (weaker Seer, perhaps? Not sure how exactly to define "weaker", but let's say one dream per several Nights, or not getting specific info - like only getting the ordo/special affirmation or good/evil affirmation etc, we've seen all this before). "Near as skilled as yourself in sorcerous arts" implies something like that, and "if the acolyte proves truly loyal" points to the uncertainity. Might be that the Acolyte takes the Seer's place after the Seer is killed, OR takes a Wolf's place after the first Wolf (resp. traitor) is killed, to compensate? However I am not sure if I'd believe this. The most likely possibility to me would be something like a Seer-like Gifted (as I have outlined above) who can actually choose the side. There used to be roles like that as well in other games. Basically: caring for its own survival, but can join either side. Somehow, I am slightly doubtful also about this (it would be too simple to be able to just choose if the role was really just a Seer who chooses), but it's probably the best I can think of right now. The "cursed Seer" idea of Lommy's hasn't occured to me, would be possible, though not nice. However, if it was like that, we'd probably learn about it the way that one Night suddenly there'd be no kill etc...

Anyway, perhaps further narrations will also contain more information about the Acolyte's role, at least hints like this.

Anyway... otherwise... well, I think there isn't much more to speak about right now, so at least something.

Will be around...

EDIT: X-ed with two Lommys. Ahem, you really missed that game a lot, right...

[Eönwë]

Said the Tortoise to the Mûmak
Why art thou so big?
The size of house, but e'en a louse
Can through thy deep skin dig.
What purpose is their for thy size
When small foe holds thee at bay?
For being small, thou may me chastise
But this is what I say.

Said the Mûmak to the Tortoise
Why art thou so slow?
A house thou carriest upon thy back
So thou can'st never grow.
And even when thou strayest from home
What can that shelter bring?
When the large birds may pick thee up
And drop from high on wing?

Wise old horse came wand'ring past
Alone did gallop he
Thinking 'why do they not run as well
to where they want to be?'


Note: Just got back to the computer, thought I'd posted this about 20 minutes ago, but now the mood has changed and Legate's turned up.

edit: bolded name

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Cooperation, yes, that's another possibility. Does not sound bad. Could be also that the Acolyte could be getting some "partial info" from the Seer or whatnot... and based on that could also choose sides... (For example: Night 1: Seer dreams of Freddy and sees him innocent, the Acolyte gets info "Seer dreamed of Freddy" or "Seer dreamed of innocent"... okay, that sounds stretched, I'm making up stuff from the top of my head, but you know, something... random...)

EDIT: x-ed with the Joker. (Or Jester... Said the Joker to the Thief...)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Might be that the Acolyte takes the Seer's place after the Seer is killed, OR takes a Wolf's place after the first Wolf (resp. traitor) is killed, to compensate?

That's what I assumed, judging by the name of the role.

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

On the other (metaphorical- I mean, these aren't the days of Utumno any more) hand, since the Acolyte is implied to be of a similar nature to the Seer... er... Envoy, there may be a possibility that they can dream for either side, either out of choice or through the cursed way.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Right. Without some more clues from the narration, supported by game events, this is all guesswork.

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's what I assumed, judging by the name of the role.

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

On the other (metaphorical- I mean, these aren't the days of Utumno any more) hand, since the Acolyte is implied to be of a similar nature to the Seer... er... Envoy, there may be a possibility that they can dream for either side, either out of choice or through the cursed way.

Yes, that's what I had in mind, basically. But right, as Zil says, it's all guesswork. Won't harm us to have somewhere to start, though. At least there's something to talk about. That doesn't mean we should dwell on that topic for the rest of the day (or game). But I think for the start, and since we really don't know much, it is as good topic for posting as any. Eventually, it will became worn-out (and it's already becoming, I think, we've named a fair couple of possibilities, so if people in the future don't have any more new thougts to add, I suggest leaving that be), and then it will drift away on its own and some more "actual" issue will take its place. But the Day has just started.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Right. Without some more clues from the narration, supported by game events, this is all guesswork.

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

I like (insert sarcasm here) those proclamations, it is very nice and logical, but then of course comes the inevitable question: so what exactly do you mean by "finding the ones..." I mean, we are doing that, for sure, all of us (or: almost all of us, anyway). But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

Now that said, it's nothing against you in particular, Zil (even though I quoted your post) - I have experienced much stronger cries for "let's talk something!" (that said, I don't even know if that was your intention) who were annoying on top of that (and hypocritical - as such cries most often are). This is partially also kind of preemptive strike against such kind of behavior.

On a more specific topic, then - Lommy mentioned her hate for the random votes. And I must say I would agree. Of course, lot of stuff can happen and sometimes people are so puzzled that they are forced to vote randomly. Or, let me say: more randomly than they would like to. It happened to me too, last time I believe in my last game (some half a year ago, I think, or a bit less, four or five months maybe) - I felt I didn't have enough info to make a good decision, but in the end, I simply had to choose - based on something. But "total random", as in, "I'll toss a coin", I believe is total blasphemy and people should be lynched just for that. Only if you come online ten minutes before DL and haven't played all day, I could understand that (but then I probably wouldn't vote, personally, for the sake of being responsible). But otherwise you could at least try to form an opinion based on something small - and later you can defend your vote based on that. Your vote is your responsibility, and that's the main point of it - later, you can be judged based on how you have used it. Random vote has no responsibility in it, therefore, you are not accountable for it. But that means that you either don't care about the game at all, or that you don't want to be accountable for your votes - and there's only one role which does not want to be accountable for its votes: the baddies.

Enough of the long agitatory rant, I hope you got the point, for now, I will let myself rest, also in order to give people less stuff to read through. Ha, ha.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I like (insert sarcasm here) those proclamations, it is very nice and logical, but then of course comes the inevitable question: so what exactly do you mean by "finding the ones..." I mean, we are doing that, for sure, all of us (or: almost all of us, anyway). But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

I see your point.

Mine was merely that I don't think speculation over the Acolyte is all that useful at the moment (though that could change later), and efforts toward finding the wolves should be the focus.

[Boromir88]

Great. I come all the way from Far Far Harad, and now who is going to buy my lovely new stock of mumakil?

The Acolyte could be something like that one role, what was it...Mythomaniac? Assumes the role of the person he/she "dreamed." If the Acolyte isn't counted in the tally that would make the Acolyte, at the moment, neutral. That is, the Acolyte will be serving his/her own designs for the time being, and until some choice of loyalty comes (if it ever comes).

[Galadriel55]

What? No one has done this yet? You bad, bad people, talking about the Alcolyte when there are spies around!

It was Rikae. How do we know she didn't kill Her Who Once Shined Brighter Than The Sun before closing the door again and putting up all that show?

It was Eruhen. Eunuchs are never up to any good.

It was Nog. Hear how he spoke at the palace doors? Must show respect, that one.

It was Inziladun and Boro. They have the means to bribe someone close to the Empress.

It was Lommy. She posted first.

It was Shasta. He's the one who spent a night by the Empress' bedchamber! He could have sneaked in and done the deed anytime during the night.

It was Greenie. Mayhaps she had a really poisonous snake bite Her For Whom The Stars Once Shined. And then stabbed Her, just to make sure, you know.

It was Bom. You never know with them beggars!

It was Sally, Steve, and Nate. They look oh-so-innocent (aka I can't think of a good accusation), but probably they are the most dangerous ones.

It was Pitch and Legate. Is it a coincidence that these two arrive at our Empress' court, and some days later She is murdered?

Lottie is clearly the alcolyte. She's a sorcerer's apprentice. Makes sense, no?

I could not have done the foul deed. If I was the murderer, that would have meant that I foresaw my role in choosing the occupation, which would imply that I'm a Seer. I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


I add my voice to those who prefer not to waste time speculating about the Alcolyte, but there isn't much else to talk about, so what choice do we have, until some better idea enters someone's mind?

[Pitchwife]

So with no better security than this, you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord. [/IC]

I see there's some speculation about the Acolyte, as was to be expected. The narration seems to indicate that they somehow partake in the Envoy's investigation, like Lommy and Legate have guessed, and I think there's also a hint in the term itself: an acolyte (according to wikipedia) is an assistant to the priest and may be aspiring to priesthood himself but hasn't attained it yet - which is why I think they can't dream on their own, but rather are let in on the Envoy's dreams somehow, more or less like Legate has suggested.

Another possibility would be that the acolyte doesn't have any powers to start with but gains them during the game - possibly when they pick their allegiance (if they do that by choice). Or maybe they inherit the Envoy's dreams (and/or power of dreaming?) in case of his death? That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.

On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".

(x-ed with Legate and Zil)

EDIT: and Boro and G55. Stop frowning.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against?

Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.

(x-ed with Legate and Zil)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I know I promised to have a break for a while, but now that people came and said something... and it will be just short, I promise.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I see your point.

Mine was merely that I don't think speculation over the Acolyte is all that useful at the moment (though that could change later), and efforts toward finding the wolves should be the focus.

Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The Acolyte could be something like that one role, what was it...Mythomaniac? Assumes the role of the person he/she "dreamed." If the Acolyte isn't counted in the tally that would make the Acolyte, at the moment, neutral. That is, the Acolyte will be serving his/her own designs for the time being, and until some choice of loyalty comes (if it ever comes).

And just as remark to the subject of the Acolyte, this would actually sound rather logical, out of the things we've mentioned this far.



EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and further

[A Little Green]

Almost did a Kath and forgot we're starting already..

Anyway - I don't think I have much to add to the talk about the acolyte. As Inzil said, it's only speculation at this point - but incidentally, I'm really happy we had it as it cut the banter to a minimum. Legate raised a valid point about Inzil, and Gal's bantery post looks odd between serious ones, but that's more or less all I have at the moment.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*crawls into the discussion by way of wiggling his nose* Alms? Alms for the septuplegic? No? What about the arctophilic? Oh, fine. *grumbles* Stingy [insert obscure Haradrin invective here]. [/IC]

So. I'm two hours later than I expected, but there's not too much chatter yet.

Now. I think all the speculation about the Acolyte is a bit pointless - there's absolutely no way of knowing, yet, what (if any) theory might be correct. That said, G55 is right - there's naught else to talk about, and it might at least lead to something interesting.

On that note, I'm going to disappear until I can think of something interesting myself. *waves*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

Exactly. As long as there is some even half-serious discussion one can start forming opinions, looking for possible motives behind the talk etc. So talking about the Acolyte serves as a subject in the beginning as any subject. We'll get into the discussion of each other soon enough, I hope. But not without something to discuss first (unless someone starts throwing strong random suspicions around - which I kind of dislike even if it sometimes actually works).

So putting my two cents to the topic. I think we have yet another possibility, which is the age-old "birthday dreamer" role. There a person picks someone fex. on N3 and gets the role that person has. That might just be enough "dreaming" to justify the parallel with the seer in the narration, and would also account for the randomness of the alignment of the role in question.

But whatever the role is, it looks like it would include a possibility for change in alignment or gaining a gift, whether chosen by the person or happening on her/him. The consequences would be radically different in the two cases.

Originally Posted by Legate of Khand

But "total random", as in, "I'll toss a coin", I believe is total blasphemy and people should be lynched just for that.
...
Your vote is your responsibility, and that's the main point of it - later, you can be judged based on how you have used it. Random vote has no responsibility in it, therefore, you are not accountable for it.

I think my position with this is quite well established among people who have played with me during the years...

I would put it in a bit more stronger terms, though. Declaring your vote to be random, you declare you are not going to stand behind your vote - and that no one should have a say in why you voted the way you did as that was "random". The point here being that "declaration of randomness" with which this sneaking away from responsibility happens.

Like Legate says, even if you have very little or nothing to go on with, you always have impressions, gut feelings etc. to work with. It's only the wolves who need to come up with invented grounds for their votes. And I do think here lies a big difference between goodies and baddies.

We all have these feelings of initial trust or suspicion because we don't know who is good and who is bad. But the baddies do not have them as they know things already. So whereas we can be honest with our feelings the baddies need to invent them every time they try to argue for their "suspicions" or tell about their "feelings"... (which they don't have). So accepting random-voting only aids the baddies and thus should be strongly disapproved, with the threwat of lynching I would say.

Having that kind of mood around is one of the best ways to force the wolves into the open with arguments (which are by definition always false). And that is what we need to do.


EDIT: Uh, did I write that post over half an hour? So X'd with a host...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.

Yes, I know. All I meant was that, while I don't think the subject of the Acolyte is worthless (if for no other purpose as a conversation starter) it doesn't need to be the focus. The Acolyte discussions can only be taken so far right now.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen?

[Inziladun]

This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

[Rikae]

It seems to me that with the relatively high number of wolves in this village, the acolyte is more likely helpful than harmful. Thing is, from the description, the two possibilities that come to mind first for me: a sort of seer-werebear and a seer-cobbler (partial seer or weak seer)- would complicate matters more for the village. Of course a normal werebear would reveal itself by toMorrow. Anyway, there's too much confusion: though I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation, it's time we moved on. In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil and fixed typo.

[Loslote]

The Acolyte conversation does have its uses. We can look back at what everyone said and their reactions to other people's posts and start from there. What doesn't help is ranting about random votes. We all know that random votes are annoying, useless, and even detrimental to the village. We didn't need three people to rant about it in order to figure this out. The rants take up post space, making the ranters look like they're posting a lot, but they're very safe in that no one will argue with them, and they can't tell us anything about the poster or about people responding to them since the only way to respond to them is another rant saying the same thing or a rant saying that random votes aren't that bad - which I can't see anyone actually posting. It had its purpose among the first couple of posts, when it was basically the same, practically, as banter, but we've moved past that by this point. So...yeah, stop with the ranting about points that were never in dispute, please.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Anyway, there's too much confusion: though I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation, it's time we moved on. In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

Ah. You agree with me, but you don't like my "empty" posts. Makes perfect sense.

[Galadriel55]

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

I know I'm being a hypocrite, since I don't have any better ideas myself. So far nothing of weight arose. I'll post here first thing if I get some innovative thought, I promise.

So far the only thing that stood out even a milimeter for me is the exchange between Zil and Legate. While I understand where both of them are comming from, they are persistent.

Edit: xed since Lottie at #25. Did it really take me that long to write this?

[Eönwë]

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

edit: fixed grammar

[Rikae]

On discussing random votes... Lommy first mentioned it (in ALL CAPS) without taking much space for it, and Legate later elaborated on it a great deal, and then Nog rehashed it as well. Thing is, Legate and Nog are pretty wordy guys at any rate and I don't think they were hurting for posting material so much as having a habit of posting on (almost) every topic that comes to mind. If someone were posting exclusively random-votes warnings and threats, I might agree with you Lottie - or if, from what I'd seen in the past, I shared your optimism about everyone refraining from declarations of randomness without such warnings.

Inzil, as I said, I agree with Legate. Posts that demand people work on catching wolves, rather than work on it themselves, are empty posts.

EDIT: X'd with Galadriel & Steve

[Eönwë]

And I just realised that I missed out Lottie's post, where she says what I said about the acolyte discussion about the random vote discussion. And yet, ironically, she says that the acolyte discussion is useful and explains why, when even more people have just been repeating the same points about that over and over again.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

On discussing random votes... Lommy first mentioned it (in ALL CAPS) without taking much space for it, and Legate later elaborated on it a great deal, and then Nog rehashed it as well. Thing is, Legate and Nog are pretty wordy guys at any rate and I don't think they were hurting for posting material so much as having a habit of posting on (almost) every topic that comes to mind.

I think Lommy's post is understandable - it was at the very beginning of the Day and it was more useful than banter, which was the other option at that point. But just because Legate and Nog are typically wordy doesn't mean Legate had to elaborate on that to such great extent, and it definitely doesn't mean Nog has to post the exact same thing as Legate already has.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

When isn't that the Day One?

I have a set-in-stone Day One routine.

1. Make banter and joke about any previous banter that occured before arrival.

2. Comment on game dynamics, and possibly unique situations. Our departed Empress left the Acolyte role vague. While it's rather fruitless to discuss the specifics of the role, it's nice to get some ideas kicking around, and that's really all I've seen from the Acolyte posts. It's a mysterious role, it's begging "hey use me as Day 1 conversation ice breaker!" Like banter posts, it may carry on a bit too long, but there shouldn't be a set schedule. I mean, just because someone comes in later doesn't mean he/she doesn't have the right to share opinions on the Acolyte.

Eventually these types of things, like banter, and discussing an unknown role weave their way out of the focus entirely by themselves. I mean what we were 2 hours into the day, with 4 people having posted, and Inzil was already declaring to move on from the Acolyte talk? As Legate said, great let us stop conversing and kicking around ideas about a mysterious role.

3. Find out who I like/trust. (No one at the moment). Find out who I'd prefer not to be lynched yet (Legate and Inzil top the list). And everyone else is thrown in with not enough of an impression yet/could vote for today.

Like all Day 1s, we leave today without a crippling seer/gifted lynching (and because of these rules, no multi-lynching, please) we'll be ok.

I should also say because the DL doesn't fit my schedule well, I'll most of the time probably have to vote 5-6 hours early. So, whoever is able to keep around at the DL...with double-lynching a factor, please stop this trend of "keep my vote until the last possible second" vote flurry.

[Rikae]

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

This caught my eye when she posted it:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

Considering that this is actually one of the more productive Day Ones in recent memory, this feels like G55 trying to stall useful discussion by writing it off as "oh, well, this Day is doomed to be non-productive, too bad".

Other than that, though, nothing she's said really stood out to me.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!

Yes you can - if you're a turned acolyte. Maybe.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.

I see the point, but not so much the danger. At this stage, our hypotheses are most likely to be off the mark or at best incomplete, and in the end it comes down to how the Acolyte really works, not how we or the wolves think we can use them. In the meantime, I'm sure the wolves don't want to give us ideas either, so they (or some of them) might be trying to avoid the discussion. See my point?

Originally Posted by Nog

I think we have yet another possibility, which is the age-old "birthday dreamer" role. There a person picks someone fex. on N3 and gets the role that person has.

The birthday dreamer I remember just got a dream on a predetermined Night, without any role change involved (right, Lottie?). Otherwise, this is basically the same as Boro's mythomaniac, which looks like a coherent theory to me.

Originally Posted by Lottie

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen?

Yes. I pray for it every night before I go to bed. Don't you?

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).


EDIT: x-ed from #34 down.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Rikae

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

This post has made me very angry. Yes, angry. This way of saying it infuriates me. You could have just said "G55 didn't post anything on content", which would be more or less true. But the way you're saying it is more like "oh look Lottie, you are against people who talk banter and here's G55 posting along whom you haven't analyzed yet. Wanna say that particularily she is useless?"

Yes, I'm saying this despite the risk of flying up on people's suspicion lists. This is what I think of you, and I'm not afraid to say it. Let's all decide that G55 is not posting anything useless, but let that come from someone else's mouth, eh? If you suspect me, say so. If you don't like the way I post, say so. If I'm on the top of your lynch list, say so. Don't ask Lottie to say it for you, or talk to her as though it's a private conversation between you and her!


*deep breath*

/rant.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I see the point, but not so much the danger. At this stage, our hypotheses are most likely to be off the mark or at best incomplete, and in the end it comes down to how the Acolyte really works, not how we or the wolves think we can use them. In the meantime, I'm sure the wolves don't want to give us ideas either, so they (or some of them) might be trying to avoid the discussion. See my point?

Ah, yes. Haven't thought of that.

[Eruhen]

Grief for the death of our fair Empress has consumed me, along with preparations for her pyre. Vengeance, however, is not far off. Let the Northern devils beware! [/IC]

In all honesty, though, Real Life has kinda gotten in the way so far, plus I have nothing of content to say. While the speculation on the Acolyte is enlightening in its own way, for now I'm simply content to sit and watch.

Just wanted people to know that I'm here and paying attention. Now, back to work...