Technology in middle earth

[Drognan]

Hello
Has anyone noticed that human tecnology levels remained almost the same from first to fourth age? I mean we needed less than 1000 years to advance from middle age to computer age, but middle earth in time of Aragorn is still in middle age...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hi Drognan,

nice thread! But I would actually even oppose what you said: the level of technology did not stay the same, it went down. There is all the talk about the skill of the ancient craftsmen being lost, for example, the diminishing of mankind and all that.

Overall, I think Middle-Earth has the antique concept, present in many of the ancient myths (and very prominently in the classic Greek thinking), that the world was originally in its "golden era" and with each new age, the level of knowledge goes down, not up. Things are forgotten, continents drown: all of this works for Middle-Earth as well. Likewise with the "divine powers", the contact of the Elves with them and the contacts of the Men with the Elves.

In the First Age, the Valar were taking active part in the Middle-Earth events and Elves lived side by side in the kingdoms of Beleriand. In the Second Age, the Men of Númenor lived in contact with the Elves who were coming from Valinor (and thus were indirectly in contact with Valinor themselves), and Elves were still important players, even though most of the most skilled and "high" Elves - the Noldor - left Middle-Earth and the alienation between the two races slowly appeared. In the Third Age, the races of Men and Elves were completely apart, ships ceased to come from the West and were only leaving. The only visible "assistance" to Middle-Earth were the Istari, the Wizards, who were not even supposed to work openly. Most of the Elves had left over the Sea and in the Fourth Age, the Elves were all but gone and no ships were even bound for Hither Lands after the Last Ship, and we know of no interventions of the Valar whatsoever.

So this is a concept that applies also to knowledge and "technology". The thought of "technological advancement" is alien to Middle-Earth, at least in the sense we understand it.

And on top of everything I have said, if there is "technological advancement", then it actually is often portrayed as something evil. The word "technology" is evil. I would argue that this is not a sign of any "backwardness" on Tolkien's part (even though he sure would have preferred some of the "good old things" to uncertain development which, by the time of inventing especially new weapons and rise of new ideologies, many of them rather harmful, by the start of the 20th century, was a realistic concern), it just reflects a different understanding of things, or giving a different meaning to them. "Inside" Middle-Earth, for example Saruman uses technology - I would argue that he is the Inventor with capital "I". So are Sauron and Morgoth, respectively. There are, sure, positive portrayals of invention - Aulë, the Noldor, the Dwarves; it would be unfair to omit these - but technology as it is is usually the instrument of the "evil guys". That is not because advancement as seen in LotR and the other books would be anything evil by itself, I argue, but because in Middle-Earth, in my opinion, technological advancement necessarily contains weapons and war in itself. Inherently, sort of.

Just think: where do you see any "technologically advanced" stuff (if I pass the references to a train in the Hobbit )? Usually this is some "Orc stuff": the "liquid fire" which, in Orthanc, burns down an Ent. The "blasting fire" at Helm's Deep. And in the Hobbit, we get this lovely quote:

Originally Posted by TH, Chapter 4: Over Hill and Under Hill

[The goblins] make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. (...) It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them.

Which, I believe, is also Tolkien's personal worldview showing through when it comes to modern war weaponry, but this is also the main viewpoint of the in-Middle-Earth setting.

[mark12_30]

Actrually, this is one of the reasons I loved Tolkien's world from the get-go.... I think this pattern is also consistent with Tolkien himself.

Besides mythology and literature and languages, I seem to recall that Tolkien's chief delights were gardening, hiking, family, pipeweed, food and drink. He also loved the seashore.

He did not seem to enjoy the typewriter (a trait I share.)

He often rode a bicycle. Although he had to get to the seashore by some modern mode of transportation, I do not think he was fond of the automobile.

[Drognan]

Thank You for excellent explanation... Never thought in that way actually.

[mark12_30]

You're frmCroatia, Drognan? Interesting! Welcome to the Downs.

[Dilettante]

Well, they seemed to be a bit more technologically advanced in the Shire, since they had clocks...and mantlepieces to put them on.

Actually, while most of Middle-Earth seems to be reflective of the Middle-Ages, the Shire feels at times more like 18th or 19th century rural Europe, England specifically.

[Lalwendë]

The Shire is like an idealised vision of rural England at the turn of the 19th/20th century. And yes, it does seem more technologically advanced than other parts of Middle-earth. They engage in trade and have a rudimentary postal service and police force, and clearly also some kind of legal system if they have lawyers dealing with wills. The concept of personal property is at an advanced stage and they have progressed beyond feudalism. The people enjoy luxuries such as smoking, nice cakes, teapsoons and umbrellas.

These things are most likely produced on a small-ish scale as there's no evidence of factories or the like, and I have a feeling that this is reflection in some way of the ideals of William Morris - for useful, attractive things made by artisans and craftsmen.

But are they different? The rest of Middle-earth clearly has the capacity, intellectually speaking, to advance in technology - they aren't lacking in small luxuries either (they have books, for example), though we see much less of them because the story is less domestic when we get to those stages, the focus is on battles, journeys, meetings with grand people. So it could be that these things do exist, we simply do not see them much.

It could also be that the rest of Middle-earth, in contrast to The Shire, has been engaged in military struggles for a long time, and that tends to seriously affect material development. Resources would instead be directed into building up military and defence capability, so much of the technological advancement was instead derived from or centred around weaponry. I imagine that if they had not been engaged in defending against Sauron and his agents for so long, that both Gondor and Rohan would have developed considerably - there was scientific endeavour at one time:

Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry or in high, cold towers asking questions of the stars.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Shire is like an idealised vision of rural England at the turn of the 19th/20th century. And yes, it does seem more technologically advanced than other parts of Middle-earth. They engage in trade and have a rudimentary postal service and police force, and clearly also some kind of legal system if they have lawyers dealing with wills. The concept of personal property is at an advanced stage and they have progressed beyond feudalism. The people enjoy luxuries such as smoking, nice cakes, teapsoons and umbrellas.

That's actually a very interesting point - one that at least I have never thought of before.

And funny, now as you point at it, it's easy to figure a clock on the mantelpiece at Bag End but hard to imagine one in Minas Tirith's great hall. Or how easy it is to entertain a picture of Lobelia with an umbrella but hard to see Arwen covering herself from rain with one.

Then I start wondering whether that was just a mistake, a lapse of thought, by the prof or whether he had a consistent view on the different levels of technologies around the ME and even a point in there?

What could that background-philosophy be? Those who live for war and evil only develop evil technologies, those under a constant threat of war are forced more or less to the same destiny (and militaristic envirovement leads into stagnating social policies aka feaudalism, kings, military elite, serfs...) - but those who enjoy peace and prosperity develop nice technologies and progressive social institutions (even though not TOO progressive for the prof's taste )?

Or what do you think?

[Galadriel55]

Interesting idea indeed. I think Nog is right. In other places technology and developments are concentrated on war, and in the Shire on peaceful and domestic improvements.

[Lalwendë]

I think it's one of those areas where Tolkien's world reflects the real world. When nations are either at war or in a constant state of defence, they do tend to focus their scientific efforts more on developing weapons and their resources are directed in the same way.

Contrast Mordor with The Shire - the former has developed an impressive array of weaponry (you can see in RotK they have not only the trebuchet/catapult which fires something like grenades but also some of the rudimentary weapons used in WWI and probably oil). Two examples:

As soon as the great catapults were set, with many yells and the creaking of rope and winch, they began to throw missiles marvellously high, so that they passed right above the battlement and fell thudding within the first circle of the City; and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down.

And

Busy as ants hurrying orcs were digging, digging lines of deep trenches in a huge ring, just out of bowshot from the walls; and as the trenches were made each was filled with fire, though how it was kindled or fed, by art or devilry, none could see.

But Mordor is a blackened wasteland and the Orcs don't seem to lead very comfortable lives, rather brutal ones where they have to fight for a scrap or food or tiny luxury. Things are quite the opposite in The Shire. Even those at the bottom of the social pile, families like the Gamgees, seem not to be lacking in very much, perhaps apart from schooling (though I'm not clear if Sam didn't know his letters because he wasn't taught them as a child or if he just wasn't interested...). The Hobbits clearly know what level of tech is acceptable to them and do not want anything which impinges on their lifestyle - as seen by their reaction towards Saruman's new mill!

I can't think of any places in the modern world as extreme as Mordor or as idyllic as The Shire, but we can all think of countries which have expended high percentages of their money on military investment to the detriment of their people, or who have been engaged in war for so many years that any kind of human development effectively draws to a halt (Afghanistan is maybe a very good example of this?). Perhaps a little of this was at work in Gondor, too much of their resources having to be poured into defence. And also Rohan. Though I think they are also a younger culture so you could maybe not expect them to develop all that much, I often wonder how much Helm's Deep actually cost them to maintain!

The Elves, I think, we can leave out of this line of thought. Tolkien shows us that they had entered a state where they sought to preserve, rather than develop. Their stasis was brought about for very different reasons than the stasis of Gondor.

But in the end, I don't think Tolkien wanted to show us that development was a bad thing in itself, just that there were good and bad ways of applying technology. Which is kind of a theme throughout his work if you think about it. The crafts of Celebrimbor aren't a bad thing, but the crafts of Sauron certainly are!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I can't think of any places in the modern world as extreme as Mordor or as idyllic as The Shire, but we can all think of countries which have expended high percentages of their money on military investment to the detriment of their people, or who have been engaged in war for so many years that any kind of human development effectively draws to a halt (Afghanistan is maybe a very good example of this?). Perhaps a little of this was at work in Gondor, too much of their resources having to be poured into defence. And also Rohan. Though I think they are also a younger culture so you could maybe not expect them to develop all that much, I often wonder how much Helm's Deep actually cost them to maintain!

To be fair, I think it's important to recall by what means the Shire was allowed to remain so "idyllic" and peaceful. It was constantly watched and guarded by the Rangers, not to mention the special interest and love Gandalf had for it. It's clear from the books that the Hobbits were able to develop such a singular society only through the vigilance and military efforts of many, from the Rangers who kept an eye on Eriador, to the Rohirrim who guarded the Gap, to Gondor which held the frontier of the West against the Orcs and Men loyal to Sauron.

The other, more "realistic" peoples of Middle-earth are themselves beset by dangers and forced to take thought for the own defense. As far as I know, the Shirefolk and their kin in Bree are the only ones who enjoy such daily tranquility.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Elves, I think, we can leave out of this line of thought. Tolkien shows us that they had entered a state where they sought to preserve, rather than develop. Their stasis was brought about for very different reasons than the stasis of Gondor.

Indeed. When you have virtually unlimited time at your disposal, it's easy to see the focus changing.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But in the end, I don't think Tolkien wanted to show us that development was a bad thing in itself, just that there were good and bad ways of applying technology. Which is kind of a theme throughout his work if you think about it. The crafts of Celebrimbor aren't a bad thing, but the crafts of Sauron certainly are!

Well, the Rings of Power were not entirely good, as they did seek to impart to the wearer abilities beyond their native means, but at least the Three had good intentions behind their making.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

To be fair, I think it's important to recall by what means the Shire was allowed to remain so "idyllic" and peaceful. It was constantly watched and guarded by the Rangers, not to mention the special interest and love Gandalf had for it. It's clear from the books that the Hobbits were able to develop such a singular society only through the vigilance and military efforts of many, from the Rangers who kept an eye on Eriador, to the Rohirrim who guarded the Gap, to Gondor which held the frontier of the West against the Orcs and Men loyal to Sauron.

The other, more "realistic" peoples of Middle-earth are themselves beset by dangers and forced to take thought for the own defense. As far as I know, the Shirefolk and their kin in Bree are the only ones who enjoy such daily tranquility.

Maybe it was their peaceful way of living that caused Gandalf to take a special interest in The Shire? I say they had a peaceful way of living rather than a 'peaceful nature' as there have been some fierce Hobbits!

I wonder exactly why this area was guarded though? As a possible retreat in case Mordor eventually overcame Gondor/Rohan? Or to protect the road to the west? I think that the presence of the road, and continual movement of people such as Dwarves and Elves may also have had a benefit to the Shire.

Well, the Rings of Power were not entirely good, as they did seek to impart to the wearer abilities beyond their native means, but at least the Three had good intentions behind their making.

It wasn't just the Rings, but also the Elessar, which was made as a love gift for Galadriel. I don't think you could argue that there was even the slightest bit of malice intended in the crafting of it.