Shield maidens and the heroic genre

[Lalaith]

I read, with interest, the thread on Tolkien and sexism, after links were posted earlier. I respect the reasons the thread was closed and I am not going to open up any cans of worms in this thread!
But a few tangental things did strike me as worth commenting on. Many people during the course of the discussion said that Middle Earth was "mediaeval" in its literary heritage.
Actually I would quibble about this defintion. The writings of Middle Earth, I believe, are more inspired by an earlier literary genre - the heroic. (mostly written pre 1100, in what used to be called 'the Dark Ages'.)
Interestingly women had a far more proactive role in heroic epic than they did in the later mediaeval chivalric tradition - specifically the North European heroic epic that Tolkien himself was so interested in. Female characters were often as not fighters and avengers - indeed, they took blood vengeance even more seriously than the men did.
I would point interested parties to the great lays such as Atlakvida, (where Gudrun fires the hall of her husband Atli - Atilla - in revenge, much as Aerin did to Brodda in the Lay of the children of Hurin. Not only that, Gudrun feeds her husband the flesh of her dead sons)
For heroic prose works, I would point to the Icelandic sagas, again full of very powerful female protagonists.
Tolkien himself was deeply immersed and influenced by this literary tradition.
Eowyn is no anomaly, she springs straight out of this literary tradition - which also gives us the word "shieldmaiden." And, of course, valkyrie.
(And no, for the record, I don't think Tolkien was sexist. I actually think he was less sexist than Peter Jackson is. Whoops - can of worms...)

[littlemanpoet]

You state your case so well, I wonder what's left to be said, other than, you're right. I agree. I've read the Heimskringla and Siggi Sturleson's works (grrrr I can't remember what they're called!) and the Nibelungenlied. Actually, the latter has too much of the medieval anti-woman bent to it again. Not so the other two. And yes, Eowyn comes straight out of this tradition. Great point!

[Vardamar]

I’ve always wondered why female warriors in stories have always enamored men, and yet if they met one in real life they feel threatened.

[Lalaith]

Vardamar - I can't think of any real-life female warriors with which to refute or
confirm your assertion!
Thank you for your kind words littlemanpoet. What you say about the Niebelungenlied is quite right. It is a later, mediaeval work - and interestingly the vengeance theme has been reversed. The heroine in the earlier work of Atlakvida avenges her brothers by killing her husband, while the Nieblungerlied has the same characters, but the woman kills her brothers to avenge her husband. Blood family was more important than romantic love in those far-off heroic days....I always felt Eowyn was avenging Theoden when she killed the Witch King.

Tolkien's Eowyn is not as frightening and ruthless as the heroines of the epics I mentioned, but the Miranda Otto performance annoyed me a great deal as it has NOTHING to do with the literary heritage of the character.

[Vardamar]

Well Joan of Arc was one female warrior, but she was able to lead her men. She was killed for politcal reasons. I cant think of any other female warriors right now. So let me change it to females in power.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Ah... I agree! Women are very prominent in the Dark Ages. Many women would leave their husbands and be their own master. I have a slight 'Dark Ages' obsession, can you tell? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tar-Palantir]

I would like ask more of these stories. Sadly I am not not nearly as well read in this topic as you all seem to be. But, what was the nature of these female figures before and after battle/valour/great deeds? Do they follow a "rise to the occassion scenario" or are they more of a "trained from birth" breed of fighter? Although I imagine Eowyn as being a little of both, firstly I would surmise she was trained from youth. Though no other of these "shieldmaidens" are spoken of, perhaps it was as a result of her nobility, Blood of Eorl and all that. So- are there any instances of armies of female warriors?

Does that question make sense? Are these females warriors you speak of doomed to return to their roots of domestic duties (for lack of a better term) or are they destined from youth to be heroes and fighting women?

[Gorwingel]

Gosh, you are all so educated in this topic, I feel so uneducated. Great Discussion though. Though I just have one little question, you talk about how women enamored men (does that mean dressed up like them or something like that), and then if they met them in real life they felt threatened. Does that mean that they had problems in realationships, or did they just have trouble communicating with them?
I was just wondering

[Lalaith]

Tar-Palantir, your question about female warriors is an interesting one and quite a tough one. I've had a think about this and the answer is, I think, a bit of both. Brynhildr (or Brunhilde as she was in the later German stories) was a valkyrie so you could say she was bred to it. On the other hand, Gudrun, the avenger I mentioned earlier, didn't actually perform feats of arms - serving up children stew and setting fire to buildings can clearly be done on the spur of the moment... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ....
The best old Norse poem about a female warrior is called the Waking of Angantyr. I have found a site which carries a good translation of the text - here it is. http://meadhall.homestead.com/Angantyr.html
I suspect it was a real favourite of Tolkien's and a strong influence, if you read it you'll see what I mean.

Oh and Gorwingel - I think it was 'enamoured' as in, in love with, although you mistaking it for 'enarmoured' was quite understandable given the subject matter!

[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[Vardamar]

I meant that as most men really love the idea of a "kick *** " female. In books. But when it comes down to one in real life, they feal that their manhood is threatend.

I remember another feamle warrior. In Americas relovutionary war there was an American woman who cut her hair and dressed up like a man. When the army found out she didnt meat a nice end.

Another is Bodicia<--spelling? of the Celts. She lead her men against the Romans in England. She was able to lead her men. And had some overwhelming victories. Until her army was crushed and she was captured [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Frodo Baggins]

Yes, Vardamar, I was goind to say that.

Boudica, a warrior queen of the Iceni (a sub tribe of the Celts) decided to try giving the ROmans a taste of their own medicine. She even sacked Londonium (London) which was then a somewhat large (in comparison) Roman outpost. And even though there were many men in her army, a lot of her warriors were Celtic women! (Eowyn actually sort of reminds me of Boudica.)

And then there is the frightening warrior queen Brunhilde. Who killed several of her husbands and was a feared warrior throughout barbaric Europe.

[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Lalaith]

Yup, we've already discussed Brynhildr/Brunhilde...but she was (almost certainly) fictional.
However, Gudrun, wife of Atli (ie Attila the Hun) may have been based on reality. It is said that he died on his wedding night to a German princess called Hildico or Ideco, possibly of poisoning...
However, I believe that Tolkien was inspired more by literary than historical shieldmaidens.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm not so convinced that Queen Boudicca/Boadicea was put to death by the Romans because they felt that she threatened their manhood - I think it was more to do with her being a right pain in the **** for them! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

She is, however a good example of a female warrior/leader. And I believe that she fits in with the revenge theme. Wasn't her family supposed to have been eliminated in a Roman massacre? Hence her hatred of the Romans and her resolve to lead her tribe (the Iceni?) against them.

[Vardamar]

Wernt her daughters raped by Romans? I think that might be what put her over the edge, although this might hae happend after she was captured.

[Lalaith]

Boudicca's chieftain husband died (I think slain in battle) so she took over leadership of the Iceni. She was savagely whipped, and her daughters raped, by Roman soldiers, and this is what sparked off the rebellion. But to return to the original question of men enamoured of warrior women, while she is greatly revered as a strong female symbol by the British, I don't think she is exactly a sex symbol...

[Vardamar]

Ok here are some mythological shieldmaiden figures. All from the Greek myth, as I know them better then the Bible.

Here is some stuff I remembered from mythology. It’s from the story of Atalanta.
As it appears in my book of myths by Edith Hamilton.

To Atalanta, however, it was only the beginning of her adventures. Some say that she sailed with the Argonauts: others that Jason persuaded her not to do so. She is never mentioned in the story of their exploits and she was certainly not one to hold back when deeds of daring were to be done, so that it seems probable that she did not go. The next time we hear of her is after the Argonauts returned, when Meadea had killed Jason’s uncle Pelias under the pretext of restoring him to youth. At the funeral games held in his honor Atalanta appeared among the contestants, and in the wrestling match conquered the young man who was to be the father of Achilles, the great hero Peleus.

Lets not forget the goddess Athena goddess of wisdom and war, who wore the breastplate Aegis, and on the front of her shield was to head of a Gorgon.

And Artemis the hunter was also shieldmaidenish

[thunder_goddess]

I think Bouddeccia gave the Romans a taste of their own, to the most extent she could. As defeat of her army was imminant. I mean think of it this way, Bouddeccia was the Souix Indians, and the Romans were the Europeans. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Frodo Baggins]

Boudica took her own life by poisoning herself after the Romans destroyed her army.

[Cibbwin]

Here is a link to a good analysis of well known and not so well known women warriors: Women Warriors

To me, this is a very cool subject. Nothing is more beautiful to me than a woman wielding a sword, and In my opinion women make better leaders. More common sense and all. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

Nothing is more beautiful to me than a woman wielding a sword

Well that of course depends who she's wielding it against ... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

Here is another site with information about "women warriors", with links for further information, especially recent archaeological discoveries: Lothene Experimental Archaeology

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

There are some notable women warriors in the Bible as well. Not as many as in the other traditions that have been discussed, but they are there.

Judges 4 especially comes to mind. At the time Israel was under attack from Jabin, the king of Canaan, and his general Sisera. The (political) leader of Israel at the time was a prophetess called Deborah, and her general was Barak. Deborah commanded the military over Barak's head:

Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? JDG 4:14b KJV

and she prophecied Sisera's defeat by a woman:

for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. JDG 4:9b KJV

That woman was Jael, one of the strongest female figures in the Bible. Her husband, Heber, was a traitor to Israel, working with Sisera; so when he came to their tent seeking shelter Jael invited him in. She got him drunk and then drove a tent peg through his temples and into the ground while he slept.

And, behold, as Barak pursued Sisera, Jael came out to meet him, and said unto him, Come, and I will shew thee the man whom thou seekest. And when he came into her tent, behold, Sisera lay dead, and the nail was in his temples. JDG 4:22 KJV

Sorry I had to use King James, it was the best online version I could find on short notice. But Tolkien's Christianity does play a role in his writing, and the concept of the woman warrior isn't entirely absent in the Bible. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Edit:] Jael falls more into the camp of the avenging woman than the Valkyrie, she was in a sense trying to atone for her husband's treachery. Deborah on the other hand was a strong female leader who was "raised up", and probably trained from childhood.

Sophia

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

I havent read all the way through the bible; my bible study class tends to focus more on the gospels, Genesis and Exodus and some of the prophesies of Isiah and their links further on, etc. Pity- Ive been missing this entire other story! *searches frantically for a bible*

Linking to this, something in the RP room(s) has always puzzled me. I am quite a frequent RPGer, and I do this often enough myself I suppose. Tolkien was actually involved in a campaign to stop women wearing trousers, and did seem to believe they were the weaker race. (Even though as his books go on, he writes more and more of warrior women.) However, in the RPGs, the most popular- and stereotyped- character is the warrior woman/shield maiden. Yet this seems to go against Tolkiens views...

[Lalaith]

Sophia, I've always been really intrigued by Deborah...
I've seen some pretty ghastly paintings of the Jael story. They were into all that in the 17th & 18th century...also not forgetting Judith and Holofernes. (She chopped his head off...)

Amanduial (hope that's spelt right!), I don't know about this trousers thing, but I don't think Tolkien was half as sexist as many of his contemporaries, in his writing at least. And aside from Eowyn,he did put in a few women warriors (eg the People of Haleth).
I don't know very much about RPG, but I think if people want to be Eowyn/Haleth types, good luck to them.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ahem! Please do remember that this is a Tolkien board, so the discussion should be related to his works, not a general discussion of female heroes in literature, whether Biblical or otherwise! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]