Tolkien's Influence on Babylon 5

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm in the process of re-watching the epic science fiction series "Babylon 5" and am seeing many nods to LotR, possibly also other works by Tolkien. There are those superficial references that spring to mind immediately, like "Rangers" (who have a very similar function, wandering about and defending the good side in secret) and "Z'ha'dum" (the home world of the Shadows, who are awakened by an expedition, much like the Balrog in Khazad-Dum was roused by the Dwarves, digging too deep). There are great themes, like death and sacrifice, which are of course not unique to these works, but are present in great literature and film everywhere.

The intent of the (sub-)creator is another point: When J. M. Straczynski speaks or writes about the epic, with its five-year story arc, it sounds very like Tolkien writing that he wanted to try his hand at a really long story to see if he could interest readers throughout it. (Quite possibly JMS paved the way for those series which now carry long overarcing plots - at the time of B5, this was unique and the TV moguls were very sceptical.)

There are also individual lines that jump out at me: when Sheridan says (upon Kosh's statement that he will die if he goes to Z'ha'dum) "Then I will die", it forcibly reminds me of Faramir's "Then it [his life] is forfeit."

Are there other fans of the show here that have noticed the influence? JMS has acknowledged it openly as being a respectful nod to JRRT, not plagiarism. I'd love to find out what you've noticed, and as I continue watching, I'm sure I will have more to post.

[Rumil]

Hi Esty,

long time since I saw this one, but really enjoyed the series until all the main characters left.

I had exactly the same thought when the Rangers turned up, especially their Aragorn-style leader (the slightly embarassing chap direct from RADA), and the Minbari are elf-ish if you know what I mean.

So there is a lot of Tolkien-y influence, but in no way a copy, as ther were plenty of stories, characters and races that had no obvious Tolkien parallels. I always thought that Londo Mollari was more Shakespearian and much of his story was inspired by the Roman Empire.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I recall how, when the series was first airing, some people accused Joe of doing "LotR with the serial numbers filed off." He had much to say about his love of it, that the references were in homage, not plagiarism. I agreed.

That being said, let us not forget Lorien, the first of the old ones, who seems like a combination of several Valar and Eru rolled into one. After a fashion, he takes the self-sacrificed Sheridan "out of thought and time," guides him through "strange paths," and helps him back to life -- but only until his "tasks are finished." Both the Vorlons and the Shadows (who seem in the end more like renegade Ainur, each trying to sway the "Children" to their notion of how the universe should be) defer to him as if he were their father.

I'm quite sure there are other things; I'm just not thinking of them right now (too early in my day).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for your replies! It's good to get additional ideas from other B5 fans. I noticed an LotR movie connection, by the way, in the fourth episode of the third season: Brad Dourif plays a major role as a former criminal turned monk - quite different from Gríma Wormtongue.

[davem]

Long discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5_influences. I remember picking up on lots of Tolkien references while watching the series. The 'Technomage' quoting Gildor ('Meddle not in the affairs of wizards...') was the first clue for me & from then on I was watching every episode for more Tolkien references. Happy days. I keep meaning to re-visit the series, but to be honest, its too much of a commitment - & I fear that it won't live up to my memories (same reason I've never gone back to Blake's 7. There is no real going back, is there? )

[Rumil]

Hi Davem,

I know what you mean, I caught an episode of Blakes' 7 on some cable channel and the set-wobbliness and non-special effects weren't exactly as I remembered, likewise some of the old Dr Whos with practically unendurable sound effects. Still, randomly watched The Green Death, from Pertwee era, that was as fun as ever, so sometimes it works out.

I must say I'd like to see Babylon 5 again on DVD as iirc it was on Channel 5 with rough reception first time round, not helped by the dodgy old portable telly I had back then.

OK, so in a valiant attempt to re-Tolkienize the post, has anyone watched the Bakshi cartoon recently? I saw it many years ago on TV. Is it still as rubbish as I remember?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that link, davem! That certainly sums up not only the Tolkien references, but also a good many of the others. It also shows that though there are parallels, there is no direct copying of characters or plot elements. In that respect JMS is like Tolkien, who spoke of the cauldron of story, with the various ingredients bringing their flavour to the soup.

I can understand your apprehension of going back to something and being disappointed. It can happen, but I am finding that rewatching B5 is quite the opposite - I can now appreciate the depths of the story and dialogues even more than at first viewing. Also, for me, living in a country in which virtually every TV show and movie is dubbed before it reaches us, I am tremendously enjoying hearing the original voices and dialogues on DVD.

As to the CGI effects, they may be 15 years old and no longer state-of-the-art, but I think they look good enough not to disturb the flow of the story, and the latter is what matters to me.

I hope the Wikipedia list will not discourage others from posting their personal impressions of Tolkien influences on B5 - please continue!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Slicker technology doesn't necessarily equate to a better all around final product. As proof of that to myself, I just spent ten minutes typing in a reply on my iPad, only to accidentally touch a wrong spot on the screen and entirely lose what I had typed. For me, the special effects in B5 that are the worst to watch are the ones that weren't very good to begin with. Joe's stories are invariably character and plot driven; the effects are there to support them; they do not overwhelm to the point where they drive the story to accommodate vast amounts of special effects. I cannot say the same of other directors *cough* Jackson *cough* who become so wrapped up in the spectacle of what can be done with CGI, they abandon a perfectly good story and characters to the mercies of FX. I have long wished that Joe had been the one to adapt LotR for the big screen, because he had already proved his skill in dealing respectfully with the work of others (and IMHO, he already had more love for and respect of Tolkien's works). But that's another kettle of fish. The series still views quite well.

It occurs to me that my earlier analogy of Lorien as Eru/Valar can be drawn more broadly to encompass much of the structure of B5. The Vorlons and Shadows are like the Ainur, attempting to guide the younger races to their own purposes for good or evil. The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences).

And let us never forget that "It was the Third Age of Mankind." That hit me over the head right from the get-go.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

As proof of that to myself, I just spent ten minutes typing in a reply on my iPad, only to accidentally touch a wrong spot on the screen and entirely lose what I had typed.

Use Firefox or Chrome with the Lazarus extension, which will recover your 'lost' text with a click!

Anyway....

The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences).
.

Long time since I saw the series, but didn't it turn out that The Vorlons were in their own way as 'bad' as the Shadows - the Vorlons took the principle of ORDER to an extreme, such that they desired complete control over everything (similar to the Elves with their 'embalming' tendencies) & the Shadows devoted themselves to bringing about CHAOS, & this effectively brought about the long war in which the other races were caught up? I suppose this is not very Tolkienesque, in that the conflict is between Order & Chaos, rather than between Good & Evil.

Unless my recall is wrong.....

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

No, your memory is correct, davem. The Vorlons wanted Law and Order, and the Shadows believed in evolution through Chaos. The analogy is not perfect, of course, since Joe wasn't trying to duplicate Tolkien, and may have only been influenced by his love of it, in this respect. Even so, to some of the Elves -- like Feanor and those who chafed under the rule and the apparent restrictions of the Valar -- they were just as bad as Melkor and his lot. The only difference was their technique, in that Melkor was right up front with his lies and manipulation, while to those who disliked them, the Valar acted more subtly, puppet-masters acting behind the scenes with the ultimate (apparent) goal of control.

And alas, I don't believe that Firefox is even available for the iPad. Time will tell.

[Nerwen]

Fascinating thread.

I never watched Babylon 5 regularly– mainly because it was mostly screened in the middle of the night– and so I have little knowledge of the overall story, but even so I noticed a lot of Tolkien parellels. I actually thought I might be imagining things.



*You had to be very dedicated and/or insomniac to follow any SF series here when I was a teenager, let me tell you.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

davem, you're right about the contrast between order and chaos as being the definitive difference between the Vorlons and Shadows (as Ibrîn already confirmed) - and neither is good when imposed upon others. It reminds me of the Valar and their bumbling efforts to "help" the Children. Freeing themselves from both influences is what the younger races need to continue their development - a very Tolkienesque thought.

Interestingly, both of the older races are also defined by the questions they ask: for the Vorlons, it is, "Who are you?", for the Shadows, "What do you want?" The former reminds me forcibly of a (rare) serious Tom Bombadil quote:

Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?

Bombadil is perhaps like B5's Lorien in some ways - calling himself Eldest, yet allowing the Hobbits to make their own choices and mistakes, only assisting them when absolutely necessary and then leaving them to go their own way. Ibrîn, I don't see Lorien as an Eru parallel - he appears to be a created being and leaves in the end. I would instead see elements of Gandalf in his character - as always in the series, there are no copies, just influences. And that again is like Tolkien's own story development - using previous influences and weaving them together in a new way to create something unique.

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with you that it would have been interesting to see what JMS would have made of the LotR movie!! Perhaps he would not have been interested in bringing someone else's (sub-)created world to the screen, what with his own imagination being filled with the scope of his world.

There is another parallel in the development of the plot: the victory over the older races is a moral one, based on a confrontation with knowledge, rather than primarily military in the end. That is very like the end of Sauron's realm. And like that victory, it does not end the tale; there is still the heroes' own world which must be cleaned up. The similarities to the Scouring are there, though on a different scale.

B5 was there before the LotR movies, but of course the similarities in story bring up parallels in the visual settings and the casting of the characters. For example, I've been thinking that I would have liked to see Jason Carter (the actor who played the Ranger Marcus Cole) as Strider - he would have brought more dignity to King Aragorn, I imagine.

I'm enjoying all of your contributions!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've found another online article comparing B5 and LotR here. It goes into the general themes more than into specific details, which makes it very interesting to read. Here's a central passage:

...Babylon 5 might justly be called "an atheist's answer to Tolkien". All the same themes are there: the dangers of power for both the mature and immature, the drive to grow up into what one can be by virtue of one's nature, the inexpressibly moving human attempt to engage with realities that transcend all understanding, the epic, ages long conflict between right and wrong, the passing of one Age into another with deep, saddening loss of beauty but great hope for the future, noble heroes and baseborn traitors, fierce wars and faithful loves, courage and fear, wisdom and utter foolishness.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

... The Vorlons and Shadows are like the Ainur, attempting to guide the younger races to their own purposes for good or evil. The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences)...

In the episode 'Late Delivery From Avalon', with Michael York, at the end Marcus speculates that if Delen is the Lady of the Lake, then Kosh must be Merlin. Here the two stories are drawing on the common source of Arthurian legend, and Kosh as Gandalf would make sense if you consider he's one of the few of his race, like the maiar, to interact with the younger races.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I've found another online article comparing B5 and LotR here. It goes into the general themes more than into specific details, which makes it very interesting to read. Here's a central passage:

I don't quite agree with the author of the link when he says:
...Babylon 5 might justly be called "an atheist's answer to Tolkien".

It seems to me that the chief difference between the universes of B5 and Middle Earth is not that of theism and atheism, but of optimism and pessimism. As Terry Pratchett says:

“I'd rather be a rising ape than a falling angel.”

Where JRR's tales are full of the decline from higher to lower, the future of mankind and other races in B5 is to achieve a Vorlon/Valar like state.

Yes, the two stories are written by people who consider themselves theists and atheists, but I do not regard these labels as necessarily poles apart since there are optimists and pessimists in both camps. The Eden parable contains this symbolised in the two trees. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil leads to the 'fall', the state in which "thorns and thistles" grow if we do not keep our garden/soul tended, but the other tree is still there if we are willing to pass through the fire of the Cherubim/Four Living Creatures/Valar who guard it. There is, ultimately, a sense optimism in Tolkien's work as in B5, because in both cases the heroes pass though the fire to the realm of light, beyond the West, beyond the Rim...


"Most probably we are in Eden still. It is only our eyes that have changed."

G.K.Chesterton -The Defendant (1901)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting thoughts, Ardent - as to overt religious content, there's actually more in B5 than in Hobbit/LotR. There are monks and preachers coming to the space station, and members of the crew state their religious preferences. Religious beliefs as a valid part of daily life are shown quite respectfully, considering that the writer does not adhere to any himself.

[Ardent]

This issue was raised in another thread on the age of Faramir:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

Originally Posted by Belegorn

To your last enquiry in Appendix A it is said, "their years lessened as their fear of death grew" [p. 354] The decline in their lifespans was in conjunction with their continued rejection of the fate of Men. This is basically the shadow that fell upon Numenor as the Edain, "began to long for the immortality of the Eldar... in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King... the thought of death darkened the hearts of the people." [RotK, p. 353]

The people were not accepting their fates. They grew resentful of the choice of Elros to be a King of Men rather than of the Elves. They thougt they should be given a choice too to decide their fates and many of them wanted to be immortal as the Elves were. Keep in mind how far this dread of death went; they began sacrificing people to Melkor in the hope that they could be released from death ...

This is the theme of the B5 episode 'Deathwalker' [season1:9] where there is a serum for immortaily created by killing others. Deathwalker's purpose in creating it was to set races against each other, an act of revenge against her own fate.

It also relates to something said by John Cleese's character in the remake of The Day the Earth Stood Still:
"It's only on the brink that people find the will to change. Only at the precipice do we evolve."

[Faramir Jones]

I like the thread you began here, Esty. While I don't know enough of B5 as I should, in what I've seen I've got hints of Tolkien's influence.

I came across an interesting piece of fanfiction where, in Chapter 4, a reference to Tolkien and one of his poems provokes an interesting response from Delenn. The piece is called 'The Road Less Travelled', and the chapter can be found here:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3442388/...Less-Travelled

The piece is a crossover between Babylon 5, Star Trek: Enterprise, and Dead Like Me. The USS Enterprise, under Captain Archer, has come to the B5 universe; and in Chapter 4 there are discussions on when the timelines in the different universes diverged with relation to Earth, including its popular culture. Commander Summers, from the Enterprise, remarks that the Minbari language sounds like Elvish, leading to this:


"That language sounds a lot like Elven, as written by J.R.R Tolkien." Summers said absently.

"That's funny considering your ears," Garibaldi winced as he felt himself get poked in the ribs. "Commander..."

"Commander Summers is mostly human," Ivanova explained, figuring that Delenn would understand due to her transformation the previous year, becoming part human. Both Commander Summers and Delenn were hybrids of a sort. "Her ears are the result of her mixed heritage. She is part Vulcan."

"Really?" Delenn enquired. "What is this Elven? Who is Tolkien?"

"Elven is a language created by Tolkien, a writer on Earth, in the 1950s," Summers explained. "There are several dialects of it. They are derivatives of various Earth languages. Anyhow. It forms part of the mythos surrounding the Lord of The Rings, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion."

"Could you speak some of the language?" Delenn asked, sounding curious.

"I am not well versed," Summers admitted. "Though, I do know a poem which was translated into Western Common or English as the book is written in it. It is one of my favourites, though it is fairly sad. It's about an elven king, named Gil-galad."

"May I hear it?" Delenn asked, her curiosity rising rapidly.

"Very well," Summers nodded, recalling the poem:

"Gil-galad was an Elven-king.

Of him the harpers sadly sing, the last whose realm was fair and free, between the Mountains and the Sea. His sword was long, his lance was keen, his shining helm afar was seen; the countless stars of heaven's field were mirrored in his silver shield. But long ago he rode away, and where he dwelleth none can say; for into darkness fell his star in Mordor where the shadows are."

Delenn went pale as she heard the last line. How do they know of the Shadows? Delenn thought rapidly. "What do you know about the Shadows? What is this Mordor?"

"Mordor was the realm of Sauron," Summers went on. "One of the great evils of Middle Earth. It is the focus of the Lord of The Rings. I have the books, and the movies if you wish to take a look."

"Yes, I would very much like to," Delenn was both intrigued and surprised. How can they know about the Shadows? She thought again. The Earth of that period had only just started venturing into space. They shouldn't have had any genuine knowledge of aliens, let alone Shadows.

"I hope you enjoy them," Summers said. "I have to say, my favourite character is Legolas, though George's favourite is Strider or Aragorn, the ranger from the north." George had seen so many jerks in her long life that she confessed to Tru that she would have loved to have known someone as noble and cool as Aragorn.

"Ranger?" This was disturbing, yet very revealing. Is that a subtle reference to the Anla'shok?

"Yeah, the rangers are cool," Summers continued. "They fought the evil that came from the shadows of Sauron and Mordor. They walked the paths less travelled." As she spoke, Summers had noticed the colour draining from Delenn's face. "Are you okay, Ambassador?"

"Yes," Delenn nodded abruptly, trying to brace herself from the shock. How could have this human writer known so much, she needed to know more, and she needed to speak with the Vorlon, Ambassador Kosh. This Tolkien must have had a Minbari soul, Delenn realised. I have to find out more about the books and movies she referred to.


Regardless of the whole piece of fanfiction, that bit made me smile. It would be nice to think that Tolkien might still have such an influence long after all of us here are dead, in 'states unborn and accents yet unknown'.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

...
[I]"That language sounds a lot like Elven, as written by J.R.R Tolkien." Summers said absently.
...

This could be explained by Commander Sinclair's education by Jesuit priests. He could have learned about Tolkien and brought this into Menbari culture when he became Valen.
But of course that would mean that Valen's children had Tolkien souls, not the other way around.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What an interesting passage from that story, Faramir! I don't read much fan fiction, but a tale that manages to combine such diverse elements sounds like it's worth checking out!

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Ardent

This could be explained by Commander Sinclair's education by Jesuit priests. He could have learned about Tolkien and brought this into Minbari culture when he became Valen.
But of course that would mean that Valen's children had Tolkien souls, not the other way around.

That's a very interesting concept, Ardent. Perhaps such a discovery would lead to the formation of a Minbari Tolkien Sociery, its activities including visits to Oxford...

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

That's a very interesting concept, Ardent. Perhaps such a discovery would lead to the formation of a Minbari Tolkien Sociery, its activities including visits to Oxford...

They could do courses in Ranger Ethics, History of the Shaddow Wars and The Works of Rumil (Theological Studies of The Blessed Realm Beyond the Rim of Arda). I don't suppose they'd find anything new to them in the idea of Eru dividing His thoughts into parts.