Admin Thread for LXXIV: War of the Wolves

[Loslote]

Well I heard there was a werewolf game
With Lottie-mod, and co-mod Hakon
But you don't really care who mods it, do ya?
Well it goes like this
Two packs of wolves
Wolf-Seers, -Rangers, -Unicorns
Like anti-hunters, sort of - Oh confusion!
Oh, confusion!
Oh, confusion!
Oh confusion,
Oh confusion.

When Unicorns die, another from the grave
Does rise, and with a borrowed role
Like a Wight, regains a sort of life
And more than that, the cobbler's tounge
Can not be stilled by anyone
The first Seer-Wolf to dream xem, then can pm!
Oh confusion,
They can pm,
They can pm,
Oh confusion.

Not only they, but Lovers two
A mid-life crisis, marital wars
They only ever speak on odd-numbered Nights
And long before, another longed
The anti-lover, scorned, wins at their deaths
And, though dreamed, can pm, only belongs to xyr own team
To xyr own team
Oh confusion!
They can pm,
Oh confusion.

Of course there are still three gifteds
A Seer, Ranger, Unicorn
And the Seer, dreaming of a fellow gift
Then they can Night-speak
And they try to save the clouded eyes
And muddled brains, but their demise, it approaches!
It approaches,
To their own team,
Oh confusion,
Oh confusion.

Well maybe there's a moddess to amuse,
But all I've ever learned from Werewolf
Was how to shoot somebody who you suspect
And there's a cry that you hear at Night
Now multiplied by two, since the warring packs
Each get a Night kill. Half-hour before 2 am GMT
They must send picks in,
For their own pack,
Night approaches,
Oh confusion.

~~~

Actual rules are here and updated!

Roles

Wolves. Six of 'em. Three to a pack. Each pack of wolves consists of a Seer!wolf and a Ranger!wolf, and either a WereUnicorn or a Hunter!wolf. The wolf packs can not share victory with each other or with the innocents.

The Seer!wolves receive one dream every Night. If the Seer!wolf dreams of a rival wolf, they are only told that the player is a wolf, not their gift. If the Seer!wolf dreams of a gifted, they are told what the gift is.

The Ranger!wolves can protect anyone during the Night phase. They can protect themselves but they cannot protect the same person twice in a row.

If the WereUnicorn is killed, one of the dead players is returned to life. The dead player used to be innocent and will then be an ordo.

If the Hunter!wolf is killed, xe may take one person with them. Xe is not a "smart" hunter; that is, xe sends me one name and that person dies regardless of role.

Lovers. They are nearly traditional lovers. They win if both survive to the end. If one dies, follows xyr lover into death. However, they can only pm during odd-numbered Nights (One, Three, Five, etc.) Neither lover knows who the anti-lover is.

Anti-Lover. This poor soul was scorned by one of the Lovers once. Now they live for revenge. The anti-lover wins if the lovers are killed but xem survives until the end. The anti-lover is not on anyone's side but xyr own.

Seer. The Seer gets one dream every Night. If xem dreams of a wolf, they are not told the wolf's gift.

Ranger. The Ranger can protect xemself. The Ranger can not protect the same person two Nights in a row.

Unicorn. Same as the WereUnicorn, except on the innocents' side.

Hunter. Xe is not a "smart" hunter, but sends in one name. That person dies when they do.

Ordos. They want to kill the wolves, and may lynched one person per Day. If killed, they may get a chance at a different role via Unicorn.

Voting

Deadline. The dl is set a 2:00 am GMT. All Night picks must be sent in by 1:30 am GMT. Votes posted at 2:00 exactly are allowed; 2:01 votes must be deleted.

Votes should be highlighted:

++Loslote

If there is a tie vote, I shall be very put out but will flip a coin or draw a name.

~~~

Sign-ups are still open with a preferable number of players set at eighteen (but the game will work with any number above sixteen).

Player list:

Lommy
Kit
Sally
Pitchie
Zil
Morsul
Wilwa
Boro
Nog
Shasta
The Elf-warrior
Nerwen
Izzy
Legate

[Morsul the Dark]

Count me in, of dourse

[wilwarin538]

Though I have no clue how this game works, I want in anyway.

[Inziladun]

Are you trying to outdo Sally in confusing us, Lottie?

[satansaloser2005]

*is intrigued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Are you trying to outdo Sally in confusing us, Lottie?

I guess this is the next stage in the crazy rules arms race...

Originally Posted by The Moddess

Oh confusion,
Oh confusion.

Indeed!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Are you trying to outdo Sally in confusing us, Lottie?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I guess this is the next stage in the crazy rules arms race...

Certainly.

[Boromir88]

Last game did not quench my need for WW *sharp glares towards wilwa and Nerwen *, but put me as a question mark please...I'm not entirely sure about my schedule after the 20th yet

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Certainly.

Bring it, princess. *starts plotting for her next game already*

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Bring it, princess. *starts plotting for her next game already*

You obviously didn't see the original plan for my last (my only) game...

[Hakon]

Lottie I said make it dramatic not a poem or song parody, I'm too tired to realize which one it is. Oh and hi everyone I somewhat missed you all. I'll be floating around now cause of this game, I think Lottie wants me to do something other then yell at her in emails and I want to take part in the Arda cup.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I think Lottie wants me to do something other then yell at her in emails

Ya think?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Modlote

Sign-ups are open with a preferable number of players set at eighteen (but the game will work with any number above sixteen).

If you're interested in a personal opinion, I'd prefer sixteen. For me, the small line-up was one of the nice things about Morsul's game - everybody actually posted and voted every Day, and once in a lifetime I felt I had the time to properly look at and think about everybody without having to wade through pages and pages of posts all the time. Sixteen's about the upper limit of my processing capacity, eighteen's stretching it. What do the others say?

[Pitchwife]

By the way, a song parody before the game has actually started may seem premature, but the muse just kissed me, and I hope the Moddess will be pleased...

This Confusion

Gimme your vote, reasoned or random
Gimme someone to suspect (gimme your vote)
A case to make, wild and what it seems (gimme your vote)
Kill the wolf, when lynch is the law,
And the wheel turns round... (gimme your vote)
Gimme Werewolf
And do you read my post? (gimme your vote)
In the tally near the Deadline
...still in a tie (your vote)
Sing Werewolf
And do you read at all?

(sing)
(sing)
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing...

Gimme Werewolf, child and do you read me?
Gimme Werewolf, child, and do you read my post?
Sing, child, of right and wrong
Gimme a life that don't last long
Gimme Werewolf, child, and do you read my post?

(sing)
(sing)
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing...

On Days like this
In Nights like these
I feel an animal deep inside
Heel to haunch on bended knees
Preying on you and if I survive
Somebody send me... please...
Nightly PMs and a Seer to dream
Giving out and in
Killing the submarines
Well, what do you say
D'you have a vote for giving away?
Got a vote for me?

(sing)
(sing)
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing this confusion to me
Hey now, hey now now, sing...

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

By the way, a song parody before the game has actually started may seem premature, but the muse just kissed me, and I hope the Moddess will be pleased...

Hehe. Have a cookie:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If you're interested in a personal opinion, I'd prefer sixteen. For me, the small line-up was one of the nice things about Morsul's game - everybody actually posted and voted every Day, and once in a lifetime I felt I had the time to properly look at and think about everybody without having to wade through pages and pages of posts all the time. Sixteen's about the upper limit of my processing capacity, eighteen's stretching it. What do the others say?

The number is mostly because of game mechanics. There are so many evil roles, there has to be a certain number of ordos to compensate. But since the wolf packs are warring*, the game works with sixteen...am I making sense? No? Ah, well.

*see title

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Lottie the Moddie

There are so many evil roles, there has to be a certain number of ordos to compensate. But since the wolf packs are warring*, the game works with sixteen...am I making sense? No? Ah, well.

Yes you are, and I see your point. I'll cope as best I can, and either way, I'm sure it's going to be fun.

[Nogrod]

It looks like a fun concept.

Put me in with a questionmark.

I really am going to have a lot of work on the coming weeks but if the Days fall into nice places I might be able to play. So a lot depends on the dates...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'll play, it's been foreverrrr.

[The Elf-warrior]

I'll play.

[Nerwen]

Oh, sign me up. This is really not a good time for me to be playing, but you know me– I can resist anything except (werewolf related) temptation.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, sign me up. This is really not a good time for me to be playing, but you know me– I can resist anything except (werewolf related) temptation.

*sharpens her pitchfork*

[Boromir88]

Could we get the planned DL? Then I'd be able to give a definitive yay or nay.

[Loslote]

2:00 am GMT. I have no idea how that translates because of Daylight Savings () but it's 9:00 pm EST.

[satansaloser2005]

Oooo that could get interesting for me. *ponders* Meh, why not?

[Thinlómien]

Oh noes, you're giving me such a headache for a return to werewolf game! Maybe I deserved it for being away for so long, though. Glad to be in.

[Boromir88]

I must admit that DL works perfectly for me, but I'd be able to do pretty much anything with a DL after 6 pm (EST)

[Isabellkya]

If the DL will be 9pm EST, I can do that.

Sign me up please.

[Hakon]

Lottie is deciding DL and all of that. I just want to let you all know that official rules will be posted soon. You can blame me for all the complexities and evil roles although the lovely revival role is all Lottie's idea. I'm tempted to throw a werebear into the mix last minute, if there is room for one that is.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I just want to let you all know that official rules will be posted soon.

Official rules have been posted now! Hakon's last-minute bid for Werebear did not happen, but quite a lot has been explained, so I advise reading the Rules. They are in the first post. Kthanxbye.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Question - what's the alignment of the person revived by the WereUnicorn (or the Unicorn, actually)?

[wilwarin538]

Ok, now I get how it works. haha

I think perhaps it may be a tad unbalanced towards the wolves. Since the Cobbler could potentially get an oppurtunity to communicate with the wolves, and then all the wolves having so much power, and 2 Night kills....perhaps the Cursed should be left out, especially if our number of players stays at 14/15?

Though the fact that the Wolves have to completely get rid of the other Wolf pack, and still bring the innocent numbers down to match, does perhap balance it more. But the innocents do have 6 people to catch, 7 might be pushing, especially since 7 would make up like half the village.

You of course do not have to listen to me. I'm cool with anything.

[Pitchwife]

What happens if the (Were-)Unicorn is the first person to die?

EDIT: Stupid question, forget it. There will have been a lynch before they die, and thus a dead to resurrect in any case. Should have thought of that.
Otherwise, I agree with what wilwa said.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Question - what's the alignment of the person revived by the WereUnicorn (or the Unicorn, actually)?

The Revived is given a "dead role". That is, someone who has died is paired up with the role of someone else who has died. They could be on any team.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I think perhaps it may be a tad unbalanced towards the wolves. Since the Cobbler could potentially get an oppurtunity to communicate with the wolves, and then all the wolves having so much power, and 2 Night kills....perhaps the Cursed should be left out, especially if our number of players stays at 14/15?

Though the fact that the Wolves have to completely get rid of the other Wolf pack, and still bring the innocent numbers down to match, does perhap balance it more. But the innocents do have 6 people to catch, 7 might be pushing, especially since 7 would make up like half the village.

You of course do not have to listen to me. I'm cool with anything.

I could go either way on the Cursed question. What does everyone else thing?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What happens if the (Were-)Unicorn is the first person to die?

EDIT: Stupid question, forget it. There will have been a lynch before they die, and thus a dead to resurrect in any case. Should have thought of that.
Otherwise, I agree with what wilwa said.

That's actually not a stupid question. If the WereUnicorn is Fenrised, then I'll wait until after the Nightkills to revive the person. The name will then be drawn from the list of the Nightkilled and the WereUnicorn themselves, as will be the role.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Loslote

The name will then be drawn from the list of the Nightkilled and the WereUnicorn themselves, as will be the role.

So when one of the Unicorns dies they could potentially come back to life as well?


And what if a wolf is chosen to come back, and comes back as an innocent. Couldn't they reveal all their packmates to the whole village? If so perhaps anyone who dies should come back with the same alignment, but the role could change. Like Bob is the seer!wolf, he dies and comes back when the unicorn dies, Bob goes back to the same wolf pack but is maybe now another role (like perhaps a hunter and an ord are the other ones dead, so Bob could be another hunter!wolf or just a regular wolf (ord!wolf?haha), but for the same pack he was in before he died). That would just make it so a wolf couldn't change alignments and then be able to reveal all their mates, and conversely it would decrease the chance of more wolves being created. But the revived still get a new role no matter what.

Did any of that make sense?

Sorry if I sound nit-picky. I just know a lot of unexpected situations can arise in games with a lot of new and never-before-seen rules, and trying to predict potential problems before hand could save a lot of trouble!

[Boromir88]

I must say I'm not sure this game is very balanced. It's not the 2 wolf packs. Sauce had a game he title blood bath because he had 3 wolf packs. However, they were normal wolves (so having 2-gifted wolf packs just looks too much for the innocents).

I don't know...it kind of seems like a role overload too, but my head is full on other things right now so perhaps I just need to digest everything.

[satansaloser2005]

*is boggled*

[Thinlómien]

I have to agree with those who say it's unbalanced to the evil side. The innocent have practically no chance of winning, unless we have 5-10 more players. It will be a horrible bloodbath with all the hunters, two packs of wolves and possible lover revenge kills. And if we have 13 players like now, more than half of the village is evil in the beginning and we have no ordos and not even all the special roles can be included!

I suggest at least three out of the four following, preferably all four:
a) removing the cobbler
b) removing the lovers and the anti-lover
c) removing the gifts from the wolves
d) removing the cursed
otherwise it's not going to work, at least by my logic. Sorry to say because it changes the game quite a lot... Or then you really need far far more players. This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre...

I suggest reconsidering a bit. As a handy hint, make yourselves a demonstration to test the game mechanics: simulate the game and keep a tally. Just roll the dice to see who is lynched each Day and who is chosen by whom each Night. Try out with different starting roles until you find one that looks fair to all parties.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Lommy

This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre...

And if we got to such numbers, I'd honestly have to withdraw, much to my own regret - I know my limits.
I'm afraid Lommy's right - all your ideas are really cool as such, and it's a pity to lose any of them, but they may be just too much to fit into a single game. What about making a choice and keeping the rest up your sleeves for next time around?

[wilwarin538]

Hmm. Well perhaps not necessarily getting rid of all the gifted wolves all together. Like 1 wolf pack has a seer!wolf, a hunter!wolf and a normal wolf. Then the other pack has the unicorn!wolf, ranger!wolf and a normal wolf? Too many seers/hunters/rangers can get rather out of hand. Then making the cobbler just a regular cobbler (not enough players though and he may have to go), no cursed at all, and no revenge kill from the lovers (just regular lovers that want to survive, and die together). Then I think that would be far more balanced. I love your Unicorn role, I think that's rather brilliant. What I suggested before about allignments would be the only thing I think you may want to change for that role.

Having 6 wolves certainly will not make it impossible for the village. Sally had a game with 6 wolves (I was one) and we still managed to lose, haha. So that's certainly not the problem. Just too many powers, too many oppurtunities for them to have more allies, and far too much death (yes, that is possible in a WW game, haha).

It's such a brilliant game Lottie, I can tell you guys thought this out a lot. It would be lovely to have everything the way it is, but it could very well result in your game ending far too soon.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

So when one of the Unicorns dies they could potentially come back to life as well?


And what if a wolf is chosen to come back, and comes back as an innocent. Couldn't they reveal all their packmates to the whole village? If so perhaps anyone who dies should come back with the same alignment, but the role could change. Like Bob is the seer!wolf, he dies and comes back when the unicorn dies, Bob goes back to the same wolf pack but is maybe now another role (like perhaps a hunter and an ord are the other ones dead, so Bob could be another hunter!wolf or just a regular wolf (ord!wolf?haha), but for the same pack he was in before he died). That would just make it so a wolf couldn't change alignments and then be able to reveal all their mates, and conversely it would decrease the chance of more wolves being created. But the revived still get a new role no matter what.

Did any of that make sense?

Sorry if I sound nit-picky. I just know a lot of unexpected situations can arise in games with a lot of new and never-before-seen rules, and trying to predict potential problems before hand could save a lot of trouble!

Actually, that does make sense, and it's something I'd never considered before. But...then the village would know, if an evil person comes back, they're still evil. So might have to think more about that.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I have to agree with those who say it's unbalanced to the evil side. The innocent have practically no chance of winning, unless we have 5-10 more players. It will be a horrible bloodbath with all the hunters, two packs of wolves and possible lover revenge kills. And if we have 13 players like now, more than half of the village is evil in the beginning and we have no ordos and not even all the special roles can be included!

I suggest at least three out of the four following, preferably all four:
a) removing the cobbler
b) removing the lovers and the anti-lover
c) removing the gifts from the wolves
d) removing the cursed
otherwise it's not going to work, at least by my logic. Sorry to say because it changes the game quite a lot... Or then you really need far far more players. This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre...

I suggest reconsidering a bit. As a handy hint, make yourselves a demonstration to test the game mechanics: simulate the game and keep a tally. Just roll the dice to see who is lynched each Day and who is chosen by whom each Night. Try out with different starting roles until you find one that looks fair to all parties.

Personally, I wouldn't mind removing the Cursed and Cobbler, and switching the one Hunter!wolf for WereUnicorn, but I'll have to talk to Hakon before I can do anything drastic.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Hmm. Well perhaps not necessarily getting rid of all the gifted wolves all together. Like 1 wolf pack has a seer!wolf, a hunter!wolf and a normal wolf. Then the other pack has the unicorn!wolf, ranger!wolf and a normal wolf? Too many seers/hunters/rangers can get rather out of hand. Then making the cobbler just a regular cobbler (not enough players though and he may have to go), no cursed at all, and no revenge kill from the lovers (just regular lovers that want to survive, and die together). Then I think that would be far more balanced. I love your Unicorn role, I think that's rather brilliant. What I suggested before about allignments would be the only thing I think you may want to change for that role.

Having 6 wolves certainly will not make it impossible for the village. Sally had a game with 6 wolves (I was one) and we still managed to lose, haha. So that's certainly not the problem. Just too many powers, too many oppurtunities for them to have more allies, and far too much death (yes, that is possible in a WW game, haha).

It's such a brilliant game Lottie, I can tell you guys thought this out a lot. It would be lovely to have everything the way it is, but it could very well result in your game ending far too soon.

Like I said, I'm seriously considering getting rid of the hunters altogether. The Unicorns supposedly keep the game from ending too soon, plus with three Rangers running around, the Nightkills won't be so much of a problem.