The Military uses of the Palantiri.

[JeffF.]

As most of you know I'm particularly interested in the military aspects of M-E. LotR shows some uses of the Palantiri that reveal their usefulness as a source of Intelligence on the enemy e.g. what Denethor saw of the armies and fleets mustering against Gondor that caused him to despair. The Palantiri should have been as great an INTEL advantage as ULTRA was for the Allies in WWII and should have been the M-E equivalent of spy satellites as well as a secure means of communications (like ENIGMA should have been for the Germans of WWII).

When Elendil and his sons fled the destruction of Numenor and were scattered by the storms that resulted the Seeing Stones must have been critical in communicating with each other between the lands that would be known as Arnor and Gondor. According to the limitations of the stones revealed in Unfinished Tales they could not have been used aboard ship since they required careful alignment but once ashore their powers could be used to find each other and communicate.

When the Last Alliance went against Sauron the military potential of the Stones should have been used to their full potential. Though the attack against Minas Ithil that started the war is never written about in detail it is likely that it involved attacks by Orcs from holds within the mountains around Minas Ithil, mountains that have long been the borders of Mordor and likely filled with Orc strongholds. If part of the attack was through underground passages the Palantiri would have been of limited or no use in detecting those. The mustering of Sauron's Easterling, Haradrim and Black Numenorean allies could not have been hidden from the Stones. In any case it is likely that Sauron had no idea that Elendil and his sons possessed any and would therefore not have thought any precautions were needed. The Stones would have been a great advantage to Anarion as he held Osgiliath and the line of the Anduin River against the further assaults of Sauron (while Isildur went north to seek the aid of Elendil and Gil-galad). They would have enabled Anarion to detect Sauron's main thrusts and position the forces of Gondor to meet them while assuming little risk in thinning his forces elsewhere. As Elendil and Gil-galad advanced on Mordor the Stones would be perfect sources examining Sauron's defenses in detail (to aid in deciding how and where they should be attacked) and for detecting the maneuver of Sauron's forces, they were probably key to the successful retaking of Minas Ithil (which was held by Isildur's sons Ciryon and Aratan during the Battle of Dagorlad). During the battle of Dagorlad the Stones should have given ample warning of any tactical deceptions or troop movements Sauron intended (like those Morgoth used in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears). If the army had two or three stones with it they could have been used even as tactical communications at least between the major divisions of the army, to coordinate maneuver and attacks.

Sauron's armies must have greatly outnumbered those of Elendil and Gil-galad at Dagorlad but the Stones would have enabled a tactical advantage that should have been decisive, eliminating or reducing the "fog of war" for Elendil and Gil-galad giving them real-time knowledge of the exact disposition and movements of their enemy as well as seeing the exact positions of their own vast forces.

Even in the later wars of Gondor and Arnor, prior to the loss of the Stone of Minas Ithil, the Stones properly used should have prevented either kingdom from suffering surprise attack particularly from enemy men. The loss of the Ithil Stone to Sauron would have gone far to level the playing field or even swung the advantage to his side since using the other stones would have made their users vulnerable to Sauron's great powers. I would think that the Chief Stone located in Osgiliath would have been less vulnerable to a user of the lesser stone of Minas Ithil even when wielded by someone of Sauron's power.

[Inziladun]

I think there is too little detail about the Last Alliance and their deeds during the Second age to say the Palantíri weren't used for tactical or strategic planning. In fact the military victory over Sauron might seem to support the fact that they were. In fact, due to their use:

Thus the Númenóreans were aware of many things that their enemies wished to conceal, and little escaped their vigilance in the days of their might.

Silm Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

'Númenóreans' there must refer to Arnor and Gondor. The Stones had been given to Amandil, father of Elendil, by the Eldar in Eressëa during the last years before the Downfall, and the Faithful in Númenor, who were led by Amandil, were far from being 'in the days of their might' at that time.

The Stones would have had limitations, however. The minor Stones were smaller, and were the ones with fixed 'polarity', in that they would only work when the surveyor was looking at the face which corresponded with the surveyed direction. That would seem to make them unsuitable for use 'in the field'.
Conversely,the larger ones, such as the Stones of Amon Sûl and Osgiliath, lacked the fixed orientation, but were probably too large and heavy to be practically carried into a battle situation.
If the palantíri weren't present on the actual field of battle, I would think issuing orders to troops that were based upon knowledge gained from them to be somewhat problematic.

In the Third Age, Arnor and Gondor did communicate with the Stones, both with one another and within their own realms.
Arnor, however, quickly became divided into the three smaller kingdoms, Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur (around the year 861), and they were unable or unwilling to unite against the Witch-king when he appeared around the 1300's.
Gondor also, fell victim to internal wars with the Kin-strife, beginning in 1432 (in which the Stone of Osgiliath was lost in the Anduin).
Arthedain probably used the Stones of Amon Sûl and Annúminas to coordinate its defenses, but I think they were simply overpowered by superior numbers.
As well, Gondor likely made use of the Stones of Minas Anor and Orthanc for military purposes for many years before the fall of Arnor. The Tale of Years shows them defeating the Men of Harad, the Corsairs of Umbar, and the Wainriders at various times before Minas Ithil was captured.

[Andsigil]

Even if one couldn't scry, the Palantiri would have had extremely valuable use as communication devices.

Think of how much time a phone, telegraph wire, or a semaphore telegraph saved when compared to a messenger on horseback, especially when coordinating between commanders.

[Rumil]

Hi Jeff,

Yes indeed the palantirs should have been an enormous advantage before Sauron got his nine fingers on them.

I guess the response by Sauron in the Second Age is to move troops by night, which of course suits the orcs and trolls pretty well. In close country the orcs etc might be able to lie hid by day, but on the plains they should have been easily spottable.

This depends to some extent on whether Sauron was aware of the palantiri, perhaps he found out about them while he was in Numenor, or could have been aware via his 'powers' ?

One question is why Sauron didn't spot the Rohirrim appearing on the flank of the Pelennor Fields. However it seems that you must know where and when to look, and his attention was probably taken by the encounter at the gate. Also, the Rohirrim rode through the forest on their march, so likely not spottable, and even if Sauron had immediately seen them forming up, he would pesumably have had to send a Nazgul or other messenger to Gondor, which takes some time even for Winged Beasts.

These show the drawbacks of the Palantir - you must know when and where to look, I guess it doesn't work at night and it might take a long time to respond to distant events. Sounds rather like modern satellite technology or UAVs!

Excellent for planning a siege though, you could check everything out in immense detail.

[JeffF.]

Hi Rumil,

I think the example of Sauron not spotting the Rohirrim is one of focus, a similar problem to modern aerial surveillance. If your system is focusing on a small point to gain clarity or detail then most of the 'wide view' is lost. I think using a stone to search for the Corsair fleet sailing up Anduin is a lot easier than searching for a force of Rohirrim (particularly when Sauron probably assumed that Saruman was preventing the Rohirrm from reinforcing Gondor).

I did not mean to imply that the stones were not used to their full potential during the Last Alliance, i concur that the victory they achieved is probably proof that the stones were used to advantage.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think
Conversely,the larger ones, such as the Stones of Amon Sûl and Osgiliath, lacked the fixed orientation, but were probably too large and heavy to be practically carried into a battle situation.
.

I don't know about the Amon Sûl stone, but with the Osgilaith one there would be little question; as I recall the UT essay mentions that it is so large it takes four stong people to lift and carry it; not ideal for carrying into battle (though if you could mount it in a cart.....)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

One question is why Sauron didn't spot the Rohirrim appearing on the flank of the Pelennor Fields. However it seems that you must know where and when to look, and his attention was probably taken by the encounter at the gate. Also, the Rohirrim rode through the forest on their march, so likely not spottable, and even if Sauron had immediately seen them forming up, he would pesumably have had to send a Nazgul or other messenger to Gondor, which takes some time even for Winged Beasts.

I think the primary reason Sauron was blindsided by the Rohirrim was Aragorn. He had revealed himself by using the Orthanc-stone before leaving the Hornburg. That caused Sauron to ignore everything else and focus on Minas Tirith.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think the primary reason Sauron was blindsided by the Rohirrim was Aragorn. He had revealed himself by using the Orthanc-stone before leaving the Hornburg. That caused Sauron to ignore everything else and focus on Minas Tirith.

But as you said, that was before he left Rohan. Wouldn't Sauron know where the palanir was being used? If he wanted the heir of the Throne of Gondor to perish, then wouldn't he attack Aragorn first?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

But as you said, that was before he left Rohan. Wouldn't Sauron know where the palanir was being used? If he wanted the heir of the Throne of Gondor to perish, then wouldn't he attack Aragorn first?

I probably could have phrased that better, in that Sauron really wasn't 'blindsided' by the Rohirrim.
It was just that Aragorn declaring himself induced Sauron to move before he'd intended, and caused him to focus on Minas Tirith.
Sauron's plan already had been to attack Minas Tirith, which he saw as his most dangerous obstacle. It was the nearest to his realm at any rate, and from a logistical and tactical standpoint would be the first place he should strike. If he could capture Gondor's capital early, it likely would be a very short war, and even the Heir of Isildur would be much less reduced as a threat to him.
Also, Sauron had given thought to the Rohirrim, and knew they would probably come to the aid of Minas Tirith. That's why he had an army on the road in Anórien, to occupy and at least slow them down. With that in place, he disregarded that threat, and turned his attention to Minas Tirith, which he thought to quickly take and make a major step toward his victory.
Something else about the potential Sauron saw in the Ithil-stone is significant.
He didn't really need it for remote-viewing anyway, did he? Didn't the Eye fulfil the same function?

It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron's vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents....

UT The Palantíri

So, the palantir in Sauron's possession really wasn't terribly important to him. At any rate, it doesn't seem to have been much use to him until Saruman and Denethor began to use their Stones.

[JeffF.]

I would think that the Kingdoms in Exile would have kept the stones in nearly continuous usage. Given their knowledge of astronomy (Unfinished Tales Description of Numenor) they must have known about the difference in sunrise and sunset at given longitudes and would have used the stones to see events in far off lands. During normal routine there was probably an agreed upon time where the Stewards of two stones would be scheduled to communicate with each other while the Steward of the Chief Stone in Osgiliath would listen in/observe on. Aside from military uses I would think that their equivalent of scholars, scientists and explorers would have applied for time on the stones to use them for applications in their areas of expertise.

I wonder what special properties the Stone of Amon Sul had? It is described as the chief stone of the North and is known to be physically large but it apparently does not have the same ability as the Stone of Osgiliath yet I find it hard to believe it was merely a large version of the minor stones with no unique properties.

[Alfirin]

I have no textual basis for this, but I've always though of the Amon Sul stone as being sort of a "clearing house" for the northern stones, that is, if a message needed to be sent from the northern stones to the southern ones, it had to go through the Amon Sul stone. It's mentioned in the UT that the size of the stones has an effect on how far they can see/communicate; it's possible that, given thieir size, the other two just didn't have the range to send a message to the southern stones on thier own. (Yes, I know that, technincally, the Elendil stone (the one that looks only West), which was "normal" sized, had an even longer distance to look, but its fairly obvious that that one is "special" and may be made differently than the others) The Orthanc "master stone" is likey large enough to allow its range to extend from one end of Kingdoms to the other, but the "ordinary" ones may not be.

A question of my own whne they say that the Orthanc stone could see/and evesdrop "all of the others" does that incude or exclude the Elendil stone, seem to me that evesdropping on a stone that can only look in one direction (and a direction that it was unlikey trouble could come from) would be all but pointless.

[Inziladun]

Alfirin, I think you are correct in your comments regarding the Stone of Amon Sûl. The UT essay on the Palantíri says in Footnote 16:

The Kings of Arthedain....maintained a special warden at Amon Sûl, whose Stone was held to be the chief of the Northern palantíri, being the largest and most powerful and the one through which communication with Gondor was mainly conducted.

As for 'eavesdropping' on the Elendil Stone at Emyn Beraid, that could not be done. By themselves the Stones did not transmit anything. It needed a surveyor at the other end for any connexion to be established, and there is no evidence the Elves in the region ever used the Stone. It does appear to be a 'one way' Stone in any case, only looking to Eressëa (and the Masterstone of Avallónë, according to the Silmarillion).

[Boromir88]

There are many limitations to the palantiri, that would make them poor for military uses. The main problem is you have to know where to look, and if Sauron was planning to launch a surprise attack, how would the person viewing the palantir know where to look...it's supposed to be a surprise.

That's just one of it's limitations though. These aren't clear, crisp, perfect images. The palantiri rely on light and shading. When Pippin looks into it, Sauron thinks the palantir was still in Orthanc...that is why he asks for Saruman and says he will be sending a messenger. Sauron had no idea Pippin was camping outside somewhere in the middle of Rohan, well removed from Orthanc.

Another problem is it takes a significant amount of will to even look into them. Tolkien in the UT writes that the Stewards eventually became rightful owners of the palantiri (as were Elendil and his heirs). As the rightful owners this gave them an advantage over someone like Sauron, who purely relied on his inherent power to use them. However, the only Steward whoever dared to use the palantir was Denethor. And he had spent most of his life as Ecthelion's heir studying all the records and lore about them. Denethor had begun to use the palantir after his wife died, and there are two different strains that Tolkien talks about which Denethor under goes. The mental strain of simply using the palantir, which caused Denethor to look physically aged, and the strain Sauron causes when he discovers Denethor using it. The combination of the two strains would eventually end up breaking Denethor's mind. Aragorn who also was a rightful owner of the stone, doubted his strength when he uses it to confront Sauron, and that was barely enough. Aragorn was pretty drained after using it.

So imagine someone without the mental abilities of someone like Sauron or Saruman, or someone who was not a rightful owner, as Aragorn or Denethor were trying to use it. Plus, not to mention Tolkien points out in the UT that Aragorn and Denethor, had a strong mental will, which was necessary to use the palantir even for being rightful owners.

The only benefit is that the palantiri cannot be made to lie, however they can be manipulated, as Sauron was able to do with Saruman and Denethor. Denethor didn't discover the Corsair ships, or Sauron's numbers, Sauron was essentially feeding Denethor images that Sauron wanted him to see. This increased the despair and hopelessness in Denethor, which led to Denethor losing his mind.

All in all, the palantir would be poor objects to use for military purposes. The person has to know where to look, they can unintentionally lead to bad intel simply because the images aren't clear and crisp. Afterall it led Sauron to make the mistake of believing Saruman was well and good in Orthanc and just with-holding a treat for Sauron. This error, caused essentially by the palantir's unclarity, leads Gandalf to take full advantage of Sauron having to play catch up and discover the error. Also, the viewer has to have a strong mental will to even use it, whether the viewer is a rightful owner or not, simply because of the strain it puts on the person looking into it.

It's interesting, despite the nature of the palantiri to not be able to lie, they are actually best used in acts of deception. Sauron does it with Denethor, and then Sauron himself is deceived by the palantir because of Pippin and Aragorn.

[JeffF.]

I don't think that was as great a problem as you state, take Umbar Any gathering of the Corsair fleet or preparations for war would take place in that great harbor. If the Haradrim invaded they must use the river crossing of the river Poros. The great nations of the various Haradrim & Easterlings must have had large cities, at least capitlos, these also would be known and the centers of marshaling any great hosts. Finally Barad-dur was known and the passes out or Mordor. These would all be focal points for observation.

[Boromir88]

That still leaves the other limitations, which I would stress more than first knowing where to look. The palantiri were mysterious and perilous objects, even in the hands of the rightful owners they were feared to be used. Why do you think Denethor was the only Steward who ever dared to use it? It is because Denethor believed he had the will and strength to do it. In some ways he was accurate, but mostly he foolishly over-estimated his strength, which leads to his madness. Aragorn feared to use it, and Gandalf continually stresses the danger.

They are objects that people should all in all, stay away from, and it should only be used by 1. the rightful owners and 2. those who were strong enough. Even then, they should only be used in the most dire situation, as when Aragorn decided he should reveal himself to Sauron. The bottomline is they were dangerous objects that someone needed to know how to use, but most importantly not abuse. With the palantiri it's like a "look at your own peril" kind of thing, because if you under-estimate the dangers who knows what you will wind up doing to yourself.

To me, that makes them poor for military purposes, much better, safer, and probably would get more reliable info just to use commando Rangers and spies.

[JeffF.]

One of the points made in UT was that Denethor was not trained in the use of the stones therefore the strain on him was greater. i think that each warden of a stone would have had assistants to minimize the strain on each individual using them. The special training would probably result in a special, secret (from the public) guild whose loyalty to the kings was proven and who were given many years of training. The stones were too valuable to use for mere communications, and after all they are called 'seeing stones' not talking stones. It would have been irresponsible to not use them. In fact there may have been too much dependence on them, the INTEL chiefs of the kings may have preferred info from what was seen rather than what traders, explorers, sailors, scouts and spies reported (rather like our own dependence on spie satellites in the mid 70's when we allowed other sources of INTEL to be dismantled).

[Andsigil]

I'd like to again point out that, while they have shortcomings as intelligence gathering devices (the ME equivalent of spy satellites) the Palantiri would be invaluable communication devices (the ME equivalent of a cell phone).

Imagine how much better coordination and response time would be between two allied kingdoms, each with a Palantir in the throne room. Mutual support would not depend on horsemen, carrying messages days or weeks old (the Red Arrow) or upon semaphore beacons, hours old which only give generic calls for aid instead of specific messages (the Beacons of Gondor).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I'd like to again point out that, while they have shortcomings as intelligence gathering devices (the ME equivalent of spy satellites) the Palantiri would be invaluable communication devices (the ME equivalent of a cell phone).

Imagine how much better coordination and response time would be between two allied kingdoms, each with a Palantir in the throne room. Mutual support would not depend on horsemen, carrying messages days or weeks old (the Red Arrow) or upon semaphore beacons, hours old which only give generic calls for aid instead of specific messages (the Beacons of Gondor).

That's true, however still I believe that except for really urgent cases, one would still use the good old-fashioned way. "Hello my dear cousin, I hope everything's going fine in your land, we have produced five hundred tons of grain this year" is not necessary to transmit via the Palantír, and as it's been pointed out, the strain of using it, even by a king who had the right to it, would not be worth it in such simple cases.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's true, however still I believe that except for really urgent cases, one would still use the good old-fashioned way. "Hello my dear cousin, I hope everything's going fine in your land, we have produced five hundred tons of grain this year" is not necessary to transmit via the Palantír, and as it's been pointed out, the strain of using it, even by a king who had the right to it, would not be worth it in such simple cases.

I would think the Palantíri would have been certainly much used even in matters of routine discussion between Gondor and Arnor, considering the great distance seperating the two kingdoms.
The 'strain' of using the Stones was much greater when one used them as viewing devices. In mere comunication between two Stone, especially when both were in 'accord', I think the tax on the surveyors' minds would have been less.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I would think the Palantíri would have been certainly much used even in matters of routine discussion between Gondor and Arnor, considering the great distance seperating the two kingdoms.
The 'strain' of using the Stones was much greater when one used them as viewing devices. In mere comunication between two Stone, especially when both were in 'accord', I think the tax on the surveyors' minds would have been less.

Was it possible to use the Palantíri just without visual contact? No video, just sound? That sounds weird to me.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Was it possible to use the Palantíri just without visual contact? No video, just sound? That sounds weird to me.

I think the UT essay says that they could not transmit sound under any circumstances.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think the UT essay says that they could not transmit sound under any circumstances.

Ah, okay! Now I understand what you meant by your last post. I thought that by putting emphasis on "viewing", you meant "viewing the other fellow", i.e. that you meant that they'd just make telephones out of the Palantíri. That's why I wondered, okay.

But still, see - for example Aragorn was not viewing anything, he was just "talking" to Sauron, and still it was enough for him. Okay, of course Sauron is Sauron, but I think it was not only his presence or the struggle that ruined Aragorn so much. Does it say anywhere explicitely that there would not be much strain by using them? (Even some strain is enough, though, for you to think it over twice whether to call your cousin in Gondor to just show him how nice lunch you just made for yourself.)

[garm]

Apropos nothing much: In 1995, Alex Lewis read a paper at a Tolkien Society Seminar, called 'The Palantiri: A Study'. Part of this paper was taken up with the possible use of the Palantiri as a sort of ship-to-ship communications system; but the basis of Lewis' argument is flawed - the question he asked was basd on a mis-reading of the rhyme of lore called 'Tall ships and Tall Kings' which gandalf chants to Pippin on their way to Minas Tirith. But instead of the correct reading:

'What brought _they_ from the foundered land?'

Lewis has:

'What brought _them_?'

- and so jumped to a spurious conclusion.

This paper was published in the Tolkien Society booklet 'Travels and Communication in Tolkien's Worlds' ed. Richard Crawshaw, 1996. pp.9-18. I've never actually got round to finish reading it, myself.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But still, see - for example Aragorn was not viewing anything, he was just "talking" to Sauron, and still it was enough for him. Okay, of course Sauron is Sauron, but I think it was not only his presence or the struggle that ruined Aragorn so much. Does it say anywhere explicitely that there would not be much strain by using them? (Even some strain is enough, though, for you to think it over twice whether to call your cousin in Gondor to just show him how nice lunch you just made for yourself.)

As usual concerning the Palantíri, the best resource seems to be the UT essay.

From Footnote 5:

But when another mind occupied a Stone in accord, thought could be "transferred" (received as "speech"), and visions of the things in the mind of the surveyor of one Stone could be seen by the other surveyor. These powers were originally used mainly in consultation, for the purpose of exchanging news necessary to government, or advice and opinions; less often in simple friendship and pleasure or in greetings and condolance.

So the Stones' primary use was for 'official' purposes, but communicating thoughts of relatively trivial matters with them was not unknown.

As for the general 'strain' of using them, I haven't been able to find a reference specifically for the communications aspect. It does say that the Stones were most easily used by 'Heirs of Isildur', and to a lesser extent, those with legitimate inherited authority in the Realms in Exile.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for the general 'strain' of using them, I haven't been able to find a reference specifically for the communications aspect. It does say that the Stones were most easily used by 'Heirs of Isildur', and to a lesser extent, those with legitimate inherited authority in the Realms in Exile.

Gotcha covered Inzil.

The breaking strain of Denethor's confrontation of Sauron must be distinguished from the general strain of using the Stone. The latter Denethor thought that he could endure (and not without reason); confrontation with Sauron almost certainly did not occur for many years, and was probably never originally contemplated by Denethor.~Unfinished Tales: The Palantiri

There is also a note to see pages 429-30, which I don't want to quote the entire part, but will point out probably the most interesting (and relevant) stuff:

A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to concentrate on some point, on or near its direct line.
[...]
But this "concentration" was very tiring and might become exhausting. Consequently it was only undertaken when information was urgently desired, and chance (aided by other information) enabled the surveyor to pick out items (significant for him and his immediate concern) from the welter of the Stone's visions. For example, Denethor sitting before the Anor-stone anxious about Rohan, and deciding whether or not at once to order the kindling of the beacons and the sending out of the "arrow," might place himself in a direct line looking north-west by west through Rohan, passing close to Edoras and on towards the Fords of Isen. At that time there might be visible movements of men in that line. If so, he could concentrate on (say) a group, see them as Riders, and finally discover some known figure to him: Gandalf, for instance, riding with the reinforcements to Helm's Deep, and suddenly breaking away and racing northwards.~ibid

There was two strains Denethor had to endure when using the stones, one was caused by his confrontation with Sauron, which ended up breaking his mind. The other strain seems to only be if a viewer wishes to "concentrate" on a specific point in order to get urgent information. I think we can assume Denethor was trying to concentrate on certain points, as he always worried about "the supplanter," Gandalf and his chap, Aragorn.