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07-16-2009, 06:12 PM | #1 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Frodo's Barrow Dilemma
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Here are some novel questions: Would the wight have seen him? Do they inhabit the same shadow-world as the Nazgűl? Would this plan of Frodo's have been viable (though cowardly)?
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07-16-2009, 07:33 PM | #2 |
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Mostly offtopic but, if he put it on and the Wight saw
and killed him and the hobbits, then what? How about: Strider soon gets antsy at Bree and probes around, talks to Bombadil and they find the ring. Strider goes to the chatfest at Rivendell and...Bilbo takes the ring! (remember Gollum lived for centuries and moved around when in possession of the ring). Alternately, Sam (and perhaps Merry and Pippin) survive to accompany Bilbo.
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07-16-2009, 11:53 PM | #3 |
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I think the Barrow Wight would have seen him. Since Tom Bombadil is a foreign entity to Middle Earth, then I think that no matters what realm one inhabits in that piece of land they can be seen. I remember there was a letter where Tolkien talked about the overlapping planes of existence. I think someone posted part of the letter in some thread.
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07-17-2009, 04:11 AM | #4 | ||
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If Tom gets the Ring, he would likely willingly surrender it to Aragorn. And the latter would have to carry the Ring to Rivendell on his own: a severe trial for him... almost impossible not to succomb to the Ring's lure. Because with Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin dead, where would Aragorn get more hobbits? Maybe he could persuade Bob or Nob to take over? |
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07-17-2009, 09:17 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
However, with the Wights being spirits, it doesn't matter, as they would probably see Frodo better if he put the ring on.
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07-17-2009, 08:07 PM | #6 |
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Eönwë, you are right about that. I want to add something more to this post but I got nothing.
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07-19-2009, 06:26 PM | #7 | ||
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Frodo, without wearing the Ring, was able to see the Wight. Compare this to the Ringwraiths, that are completely invisible to mortals unless they wear clothing to give shape to themselves. If Frodo could see the Wight without the Ring, and it could plainly see him, I am inclined to think it could not have seen him while he wore it.
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07-19-2009, 07:41 PM | #8 | |
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07-19-2009, 07:50 PM | #9 | ||||
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It seems the 'What are Barrow-wights?' question once again rears its ugly head. The wights must have had a corporeal form. Quote:
That arm was not described as 'skeletal' either. I've heard arguments that what Frodo saw in the barrow were the animated remains of who was buried there, and the same spell that preserved the weapons and treasure it contained also kept the remains from corruption. It is unlikely the arm was merely dead flesh, however. Quote:
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Argeleb II's reign presumably began upon the death of his father, Araphor in 1589, and Argeleb died in 1670. Therefore, those remains had to have been in the barrow at least 180 years, plenty of time for advanced decomposition before the Wight arrived, so the arm Frodo saw could not have been part of the corpse.
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07-19-2009, 11:27 PM | #10 |
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Don't forgett that we talk about a Númenorean Prince. The Númenoreans had developt the art of precerving the flash for long times in Númenore and the Exiles brought that art to Middle-Earth.
Respectfully Findegil |
07-19-2009, 11:57 PM | #11 | |
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'dark figure' is a generic descriptor that was used for lots of things in LOTR. "the shadow" and "dark figure" were interchanged for the Balrog. Sauron was a "dark figure" taking the shape of a man...'"yet greater." (Letter 246) The beasts that attacked the company were first described as "dark wolf-shapes." And I'm sure the Ringwraiths were referred to as "dark figures" more than once. A few paragraphs before the dark was described as "near and thick," Frodo is terrifed, fell on the ground, and seconds away from conking out. We have no clue about the details of the Barrow-wight, because Frodo has no clue. It's tall, dark, a figure, and cold. It could be a spirit inhabitting some guys bones, or it could have been a nargle for all Frodo knew. You expect Frodo (and Tolkien) to give us a clear description of every evil creature, spirit, or thing out there that Frodo and our heroes encounter? Ha.
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07-20-2009, 07:17 AM | #12 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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To be sure, there's still some ambiguity. That said, I don't see why the wight must possess no solid form of its own. As to the 'embalming' question, the Númenóreans certainly took actions to preserve the bodies of at least their kings and rulers after death. However, the death of that unnamed prince occurred during a time of desperate fighting, and I have to wonder whether taking the time to embalm him would have been wise or feasible at that time.
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07-20-2009, 08:42 AM | #13 | |
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07-20-2009, 02:27 PM | #14 | |
Laconic Loreman
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The Balrog, Ringwraiths and such, we encounter more, and there is the chance for more description. Frodo doesn't get this with the Barrow-wight, just as Gandalf doesn't tell us anymore about the 'dark gnawing' creatures at the bottom of the bottomless pit. We don't get more from Gandalf, because he was having Balrog issues and probably didn't care to investigate into more detail about the Moria critters. I'm not saying you aren't correct, maybe there was more than just bones to the wight, but pointing out because you think Frodo would have described empty bones differently, if he had seen just empty bones, I don't agree with that type of argument. Because all Frodo described was a dark figure (not surprising in a dark, foggy area) and a cold hand grasped him tight.
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07-20-2009, 10:57 PM | #15 |
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I doubt they would have seen him. Whereas the Ringwraiths were cunning enemies and the cream of Sauron's crop, the Barrow-Wights were merely puppets. Called up by the Witch-King if I am not mistaken.
And whilst the Nazgul were neither dead nor alive, the Barrow-Wights were most certainly dead. So, no ring-vision for them!
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07-21-2009, 04:12 AM | #16 | |||
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Putting on the Ring, Frodo is transferred from the ordinary physical world into the Shadow/Spirit world and thus becomes invisible to mortal eyes, to all the eyes of the ordinary physical World. On the contrary, wearing the Ring he becomes fully visible to all the denizens of the Spirit world: ghosts, spirits, wraiths, ringwraiths etc. He would also still be visible to those "who dwell in both words": Calaquendi Elves (like Glorfindel or Galadriel) and Tom Bombadil. Barrow wights are in essence SPIRITS: Quote:
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It is to see things of the Ordinary physical World (and especially to interact with them) that the nazgul and other Spirit World dwellers needed extra-powers and extra-efforts. Last edited by Gordis; 07-21-2009 at 04:36 AM. |
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07-21-2009, 08:28 PM | #17 | |
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I would say that his being clothed in a real body may have been a factor, but why should that be an impediment to him and not Bombadil?
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07-22-2009, 02:01 AM | #18 | |
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In "the Hobbit" the evidence is controversial IIRC: maybe he did, maybe he did not. Note also that at the time of writing of "the Hobbit", Tolkien has not yet developed the conception of the Spirit /Shadow World versus the World of Light, had no idea about the nature of Bilbo's Ring and had Gandalf as a Man, not a Maia. "The Hobbit" is not a good source of evidence for such things. |
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07-22-2009, 08:05 PM | #19 | ||
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(emphasis added) If Gandalf was capable of seeing the wearer of the Ring, why would he make such a statement? How would he know, by appearance, whether Bilbo wore the Ring or not?
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07-22-2009, 09:37 PM | #20 | |
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Of course, this proceeds from the canonical principle (which I espouse) that the author is the arbiter of the canon, not the reader.
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07-23-2009, 04:14 PM | #21 | ||
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Look at Frodo at the Ford. Due to his Morgul-wound he is more than half-way into the Shadow-World: he sees the Nazgul clearly, the mortals only as pale shadows (but he still sees them) and Glorfindel as a figure of light: Quote:
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07-23-2009, 08:56 PM | #22 | |
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07-24-2009, 02:48 AM | #23 |
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For me it makes a lot of sense:
- Bilbo did not know that Gandalf could see him, when he wore the ring. The revelation when Gandalf would have spoken to him while he sought himself invisible would have been a shock. Reading between the lines we can see that Gandalf would have found Bilbo anyway. - Bilbo not wearing the ring does provide a better chance for him leaving it behind for Frodo. To secure this plan, devised by Gandalf, was the reason for Gandalf looking for Bilbo at that moment. Respectfully Findegil |
10-16-2009, 05:12 AM | #24 | |
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10-16-2009, 05:30 AM | #25 |
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For Gandalf that is never stated as a clear fact, but in addition to passages refered to above, we have the scene in the Hobbit were Gandalf seems to know from the start that Bilbo did not tell the dwarves the whole story how he had eluded Balin the outlook when he came up at their camp-fire after the Orc-tunnles. And we have the scene in Imladris where Gandalf looks at Frodo after his wounding at Weathertop and sees more then plain looking Sam. And later he explains Frodos own expirience during his near to ghost state at the ford of Bruinnen, in a way that suggest that he does know what he is talking about.
An additional evidence is Tom Bombadil who could see Frodo plainly when he wore the Ring. But it is a weak one since it can be contested if Bombadil was being of the same order as Gandalf the Grey. Respectfully Findegil |
10-16-2009, 02:43 PM | #26 |
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About Gandalf seeing through the ring-veil (I know, technically not correct)... I understand why Tolkien kept out of it - it is hard to imagine him not being able to, being tricked by such a toy feature. Otherwise clearly assigning more power to Gandalf against the ring is not neccessarily good - how to explain that the guy doesn't want to give it a try to destroy or even use the thing?
That being said for the narrative choice, he probably could, probably even the higher elves could. We shouldn't forget that the power Bombadil had over the ring, wasn't just the ability to see someone wearing it, but not to let the ring lead him to the other side, not disappearing from the land of living while wearing the piece. Now back to the original question. To answer it, we should first know how the Wight the hobbits "saw". All the groping and the eyes lit from beyond probably mean a sight from the shadow world, feeling and seeing just enough from the world of living to take its victims. So probably it was a bad idea to put the ring on in order to become invisible to the barrow creature. He'd more like had gotten a view of the Frodo Bagging in his best shine and brightness. Which on the other hand, might not have been bad for the initial plan (save your skin leaving the friends behind). The B-W was powerful alluring fresh meat, that is foolish enough to fall asleep in his range, but being affronted by a power like that of the ring, would have probably taken him aback. I guess he would think that he has made a mistake capturing something he is not entitled to and step back. Of course that would have still meant saving himself in the moment and letting his friends to the will of the BW. I think this episode was one of the most important part in the preparation of Frodo as a Ringbearer.
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10-17-2009, 06:08 AM | #27 |
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Also, concerning the mad notion of escape that occurs to Frodo before he decides to try to save his friends instead: I think this is wholly, or almost wholly, the Ring tempting him.
When Sam bears the Ring for a few hours, we are told "one thing it did not confer, and that was courage." The Ring did not help Sam overcome his fear in Cirith Ungol, and only made him think of lying low, not of rescuing Frodo at all. The Ring did not help a person's native or natural courage; it antagonised and worked against it, so that a person's own courage had to fight to overcome it. "It was almost more than he could screw himself to face," we are told, and the Ring did not help him any more than it helped Frodo in the Barrow. I slightly wonder if Frodo was haunted by guilt of having even thought of leaving his friends to save himself, because he clearly rambles aloud about it in his sleep in Rivendell (as Gandalf tells him when he wakes up. Also Frodo says he never told his friends what happened in the Barrow - at first because it was too horrible - and afterwards because there were other things to think about (perhaps he was glad not to have to think about it and to have other distractions, however horrible). Gandalf commends him for how he dealt with it: "That was touch and go, probably the most dangerous moment of all. I wish you could have held out at Weathertop." This also implies that it was a direct pressure of temptation from the Ring, no different from what happened at Weathertop. More dangerous than Weathertop - why? Because Aragorn was not with them? Because Bombadil could be (and was) summoned, but would not get there in time to save Frodo if he put on the Ring? Is this simply because it would certify the exact whereabouts of the Ringbearer for the Nazgul and they would track him down before protection came? Could the Wights be in some way in league with the Nazgul? I've never been quite sure if there was some connection, or if they themselves, when alive, belonged to the same kindred as the Nazgul - or if they are simply just another of the "many perils in the world," just like Caradhras, not connected with Sauron at all, directly or indirectly.
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10-17-2009, 09:05 AM | #28 | ||
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Though the wights were not in direct league with Sauron, they apparently obeyed the Witch-king. The nature of the wights has been a focus of recurring debate over the years. That they were the spirits of Men, presumably his own subjects (who had sworn fealty to him and undergone some sort of sorcery ?) has been mentioned, or that they were a different order of non-corporeal spirit altogether. At any rate, I don't believe they and the Nazgűl were creatures of the same order. As to the question of why Frodo was said to be in more danger in the barrow than on Weathertop, it seems to me Frodo could easily have given in to the spell of the wight as his friends did. If he'd done so, he would have been killed, or worse. The Ring would have remained in the barrow, and the Nazgűl probably would have found it eventually. I wonder if the Ring itself might not have been what saved Frodo from the wight's spell, in an ironic fashion. As you say, on Weathertop, Frodo had help nearby, and knowledgeable, competent help in the from of Aragron. In the barrow he was all alone, and but for his own courage the quest would have been a failure.
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10-17-2009, 10:29 AM | #29 | |
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