The Balrog

[JeffF.]

It does not appear that the Balrog was in Sauron's service during the War of the Ring nor does it appear to be that he ruled over the Orcs and Cave-trolls within Moria. These inhabitants are in several places described as Servants of Sauron but they were obviously intimidated by the Balrog whenever he chose to appear. This is reinforced in the RotK Appendices in Durin's Folk the orc Azog commanded the orc army out of Moria that fought the final battle of the War of Orcs and Dwarves, though the Balrog was a spectator at the Gate and was seen by Dain it did not participate not even as a commander.

Perhaps one reason is that the Balrog could not be trusted in that if it found the One Ring he would undoubtedly use it to become a new Dark Lord rather than return it to Sauron. Despite all this the Balrog could have been militarily useful to Sauron. Sauron's forces in Dol Guldor with those of Moria seemed to be intended to tie down the Elven forces of Lothlorien (Galadriel & Celeborn) and Greenwood (Thranduil). In modern terms they were an 'economy of force' army. I say this because they were repulsed three times from Lorien and decisively beaten by Thranduil so obviously lacked the power to overcome either Silvan Elf Army. The objective of the Dol Guldor / Moria orcs was probably to prevent the Woodmen and Thranduil's Elves from assisting the Men of Dale and Dwarves of Erebor in their defense against the Easterling invasion and to do this they would have to attack both Silvan Elf realms otherwise the un-engaged Elves would attack the rear. The Balrog could have been of great assistance in this mission. It was said that Lothlorien had the power to resist any enemy unless Sauron himself should come there so perhaps even the Balrog could not overcome Galadriel but it is likely that it would have been decisive against Thranduil's elves who were not protected by any similar power to Galadriel's. Had the 'main effort' of the Dol Guldor force been sent under the Balrog against Thranduil they likely would have routed the elves and if joined to the Easterlings perhaps even would have overthrown the Dwarf defenses of Erebor. If this success was achieved at the cost of the orc army sent against Lothlorien being destroyed it would have been well worth it if the entire North were conquered.

The Balrog seemed very similar in power to the Lord of the Nazgul and could have been served as a second great captain for the Dark Lord. It's 'historical' demise also brought down Gandalf the Grey and would seem to have been a good exchange since it eliminated the most powerful being fighting for the Free Peoples but in retrospect since Gandalf was resurrected in a more powerful state than before the death of the Balrog was not worth its loss.

[Eönwë]

What's to say that the Balrog would go under Sauron's command?

[Pitchwife]

I don't think it would. The two of them probably were of roughly equal rank in the good old days under Morgoth, so the Balrog would very likely have regarded any attempt on Sauron's side to command it as presumptuous. They might have made an alliance, but the Balrog seems to have been remarkably disinterested in the affairs of the wider world - after all, it spent all those centuries since the Dwarves woke it up doing little more than sitting on its... er... hands in Moria. It's almost like it had decided to retire and only wanted to be left alone. (It only went after the Fellowship after Pippin's foolish stone had disturbed it in its peace in the deeps. Makes me wonder whether our dear Fool of a Took managed to accidentally hit Durin's Bane on the head...)

On the other hand, maybe not. Why did the Watcher in the Water grab Frodo, of all the Fellowship? Did it just feel some attraction from the Ring, or was it under orders - and if so, whose? Sauron's (who was far away) or the Balrog's (who lived next door, so to speak)? Maybe the Balrog, rather than twiddling its w... er... thumbs for centuries, had been busy all that time recruiting an army of Nameless Things at the roots of the world and was just waiting for the right moment to come out of hiding and Take Over the World - in which case it would have found the Ring quite handy (and what a chance to thumb its nose at its old colleague!). Lots of room for speculation, but little more.

As for Sauron, do we know whether he even was aware of the Balrog?

Finally, I'm not so sure about the Moria orcs serving Sauron in the sense of being under his direct command. Those who took part in the attack on the Fellowship at Parth Galen apparently only followed their own agenda (LotR Book III, The Uruk-Hai):

'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'

That doesn't sound like they had any special orders concerning rings or halflings, and neither Uglúk nor Grishnákh seems to have thought them very reliable.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

The two of them probably were of roughly equal rank in the good old days under Morgoth,

I'm not so sure that the were of equal rank. Remember Sauron was Morgoth's Chief leutenant and (in his alternate idenity of Gorthmar) one of his most Sucessful generals. That likey put him rank-wise, on par with Gothmog (the Head Balrog, not the Nazgul) if not slightly higher. Durin's Bane isn't Gothmog, he/she/its is one of the lesser Balrogs. While you can speculate on how much differece there is in strength between an ordinary Balrog and Gothmog (a bit like speculating on how much stronger the WK is than an ordinary Nazgul) rank wise (from Morgoths army's standpoint) , Durin's Bane is likey far lower than Sauron.

Two other point, however come to mind which lean in favor of Sauron not being able to cow the Balrog if he so chose. One is the fact that, in terms of raw physical power Third age Sauron is probably much weaker than first age Sauron; he's lost so much in his continual defeat and returns. The Balrog on the other hand is probably roughly as strong as it was whne it first went under the mountain, if not as strong as it was in it's prime (it's had a long time to sleep and recover) Second Third age Sauron really doesn't move much (he goes from Dol Guldur to Barad Dur, but its not like we have a record of him doing anything on the trip so its more like a King or Emperor moving from his summer to his winter palace. All actual pysical "work" Sauron does is done through his servants and agents, like the Nazgul, who while capable do not, in an singe one of them (even the witch king) have the whole of thier masters power (if they did he could only have one of them by defintion) What I'm trying to get at is, if Sauron knew about the balrog and wanted to enslave it, it would probably require him to go to Moria in person and even then it might not be enough.

[Kuruharan]

Sauron might have been rather embarrassed in front of the balrog for a couple of reasons. The first is Sauron's failure and then desertion of Morgoth's cause in the First Age. The second is how much weaker Third Age Sauron had become. Thirdy, there was that business about Sauron claiming in the Third Age to be Melkor returned...which obviously wouldn't have taken the balrog in for a moment and might have made it rather angry.

The relationship between them may have been rather similar to that of Sauron and Shelob in a way. They were aware of each other but left each other alone...barring the occasional snack. The balrog does seem in a way to be working with the orcs to some extent and was certainly aware of the things they were up to...but he also seems more than a little disinterested in them. He didn't stir a finger to save them in the Battle of Azanulbizar but had the dwarves tried to enter Moria it probably would have been a very different story. To keep them out was probably the only reason he bothered to be at the gate at all that day.

I agree that he largely wanted to be left alone.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...after all, it spent all those centuries since the Dwarves woke it up doing little more than sitting on its... er... hands in Moria.

Actually, it was sitting on its wings...

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

It was said that Lothlorien had the power to resist any enemy unless Sauron himself should come there so perhaps even the Balrog could not overcome Galadriel but it is likely that it would have been decisive against Thranduil's elves who were not protected by any similar power to Galadriel's.

I'm not so sure that the balrog couldn't have defeated Lothlorien. Yes, if Galadriel had a chance to do battle with the Balrog she might have won, though if the balrog is believed to be stronger than Sauron logically it could have defeated her too.

The bigger problem with defending Lothlorien (and Mirkwood) from the balrog is that they are forests and the Balrog is a creature of shadow and flame. In the time it took somebody to raise the alarm, the Balrog could have cracked his whip and caught a dozen trees on fire.

That's just my thoughts on the matter of course. Somebody else might have a reason why the Balrog wouldn't have been able to just catch the whole place on fire and pick the elves off as the ran.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Why did the Watcher in the Water grab Frodo, of all the Fellowship? Did it just feel some attraction from the Ring...?

This is what I've always believed. The Watcher could sense the power of the Ring and was attracted to it. Likewise, the Balrog, instead of being awakened (Or made aware of the party) by Pippin's dropped rock, also might have sensed the Ring and as the Ring contained quite a bit of Sauron's power, might have thought Sauron himself had come to Moria.

[JeffF.]

I agree, the ring drew the orcs that wiped out Isildur's guard when he lost the ring near Gladden Fields, it drew the Watcher in the Water to Frodo out of the whole group and the orc chietain in Balin's tomb bypassed both Aragorn and Boromir to thrust at Frodo. I also think the Balrog was drawn out of hiding toward the power of the ring. To an evil force such as the Balrog it must have seemed irresistable.

Still, given Sauron's rank among Morgoth's minions as his second in command I think there was some possibility of him drawing the Balrog into his service. in Unfinished Tales Gandalf mentions that Sauron could have made great use of Smaug had Gandalf not contrived to have him slain and it seems to me Smaug and the Balrog were probably similar in power and evil.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Perhaps Sauron could have attempted to draw the Balrog into his service with promises of whatever forms of riches it may desire? Of course, this would only work if he had anything that a Balrog could possibly want-the chances are quite slim, for why would it want to do anything for Sauron?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

This is what I've always believed. The Watcher could sense the power of the Ring and was attracted to it. Likewise, the Balrog, instead of being awakened (Or made aware of the party) by Pippin's dropped rock, also might have sensed the Ring and as the Ring contained quite a bit of Sauron's power, might have thought Sauron himself had come to Moria.

The Balrog may have also sensed the presence of Gandalf, another Maia.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

The Balrog may have also sensed the presence of Gandalf, another Maia.

Yes, I think that possibility has been greatly overlooked. Gandalf's presence would surely have been strong enough to at least alert the Balrog, and Pippin's moment of "great common sense" would have woken him, if he wasn't awake already.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Yes, I think that possibility has been greatly overlooked. Gandalf's presence would surely have been strong enough to at least alert the Balrog, and Pippin's moment of "great common sense" would have woken him, if he wasn't awake already.

Good point. I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

[QUOTE]'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,'
he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here[ in signs that
all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin./QUOTE]

On the general topic here, one of PJ's movie errors was to picture
all evil as directly controlled by Sauron. It's far more complicated,
interesting, and realistic to have a number of autonomous forces,
for good and evil, with possible alliances. On the bad guy side
including Sauron, Shelob, Smaug, Caradhras, balrogs, and some orcs.

It is interesting to speculate on relative powers vof Durin's Bane vs.
Third Age (ringless) Sauron. And this is another reason for Sauron's
desire for the Ring. Even if Sauron took out Gondor, Rohan, and the elves
he'd still have major concerns handling balrogs, any remaining dragons, etc.
And it's one thing to gain military victories, another to govern the mass
of Middle Earth (of which Eriador and Rhovanion were only a fraction).

Ample room for the valar and Iluvatar to eventually engineer his downfall,
certainly without the Ring available for Sauron. The temptation (except for
the Nine) to seek their own power base would be enormous. Consider that
a Moria defended only by dwarves withstood Sauron throughout the Second
Age, how much more could a Moria defended by a balrog and his
minions do?

[JeffF.]

I think the Balrog could have done much to advance Sauron's military objectives. The three attacks by Dol Guldor & Moria orcs were repulsed but had the Balrog been there it may have been a different outcome. Even if Galadriel's power was too great unless Sauron himself came the Balrog leading Dol Guldor forces easily could have overcome the Beornings and Woodmen. Thranduil's elves also would have fallen. If the Balrog linked with the Easterlings attacking the Kingdom's of Dale and Erebor they would have overthrown all the North.

[Boromir88]

(I'm so silly, I originally placed this in the assassination thread down the hall...this I believe is the proper place).

But still who's to say the Balrog would have wanted to fight for Sauron had Sauron wanted it? Sauron couldn't force the Balrog into obediance. The Balrog was a Maia, just like Sauron, maybe one not as powerful, but Melkor wasn't entirely in control of the Balrogs, as he was over his Orcs.

Durin's Bane fled, and decided to make Moria his personal retirement home, he spent his days in relaxation and comfort, arguably what his intentions were after he fled from Morgoth's service. He was stirred awake by the Dwarves, and it was also made clear he was the Orcs' commander...he seemed quite content to stay under a mountain ruling over a host of Goblins, not wanting to enter into the service of someone similar to the one he left ages ago.

And as Pitchwife wrote, their rank in Morgoth's administration is hazy. Sauron seemed to always be Morgoth's chief guy (adminstratively and maybe his general 2nd-in-command), as Sauron was Morgoth's greatest servant. However, the Balrogs were right behind him, as wasn't Gothmog, 'Lord of the Balrogs', in command of Morgoth's armies? Also, in FOTR, either Celeborn or Galadriel make clear that you will not come across a more powerful and terrifying foe unless you were to go see Sauron.

Edit: Remember, the Balrogs were not forced or bred into Morgoth's service. They were independent Maia who willingly allied themselves with Morgoth (maybe even for their own personal gains as Sauron arguably did), and they willingly left his service when they wanted to.

[JeffF.]

There's something to be said for that, all the 'brave' or 'extremist' Balrogs may have been killed. This Balrog may have been one of the meeker of his kind and not wanted pardon nor to side with Sauron.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

I tend to agree with you here. Kind of ironic that his his title is "the Wise". But actually, it is not that he isn't wise, it's just that he isn't as powerful as the others.

edit: but do we actually know who all "the Wise" were?

[Hakon]

I think the so called "wise" of middle earth were all the extremely intelligent old people, and by old I mean lived a very long time.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

That's what I was referring to. And as for not alerting anyone to his presence, why do you say that? As far as I'm concerned, anyone (or thing) with any kind of ability to sense the power he used to light the fire would have known where he was.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

Did anybody actually seem wise in LotR who could actually have been when of the Wise? Elrond and Galadriel had both taken rings of power, Gandalf didn't know what the Balrog was until Legolas pointed it out to him even though he had to have known there was a possibility (unless everybody failed to mention Lorien's last Balrog problem), ect., ect.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Did anybody actually seem wise in LotR who could actually have been when of the Wise? Elrond and Galadriel had both taken rings of power, Gandalf didn't know what the Balrog was until Legolas pointed it out to him even though he had to have known there was a possibility (unless everybody failed to mention Lorien's last Balrog problem), ect., ect.

How about Cirdan?

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

How about Cirdan?

How much do we actually see of him?

But you're right. He's about the only one who I didn't have the urge to pick up and shake while screaming about finding some common sense.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Then again, if everyone had acted "wise" -- recalling and acting on all possible available knowledge and the most opportune moments, which is the implication I'm getting of the definition, here -- there wouldn't have been much of a story. I do agree that there is a strange inconsistency with the Elves' and Dwarves' apparent knowledge of the presence of a Balrog in Moria, and their lack of action to get rid of it. Personally, I think that Gandalf knew it was there, but hoped that it had buried itself so deeply in the mines and was dormant for so long, they might have a chance of getting through if not unnoticed then before it had a chance to awaken and come up out of its hiding place to get them. He would have reason to believe it possible, since he had been in Moria before, with Narya, and had gotten out again without (apparently) even stirring the creature's attention. He knew that the Ring drew evil things to it, and thus would probably have known that they had to make it through as quickly as possible. And if they didn't make it, he was obviously prepared to sacrifice himself for the quest.

When Legolas cries out "A Balrog!", Gandalf's response is, "Now I understand." But he never says precisely what it is he understands. That the evil thing with the orcs is a Balrog? Or that Aragorn's presentiments of danger and doom meant that he would die in this particular way? Or something else entirely? We're never told, although we do know that Gandalf was aware that he might not make it through Moria. As Aragorn later told Gimli, "The counsel of Gandalf was not founded on foreknowledge of safety for himself or for others," a sentiment which is echoed in Galadriel's reproach of Celeborn, "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose." All these things tend to make me think that Gandalf knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, and that he would face his greatest test (after the Ring) there: to lay down his life for the sake of his mission to Middle-earth, and thus personally fail to see that cause through to the end. "Now I understand" may have referred to his choice: to merely help the Fellowship out of Moria and go with them, letting others deal with the Balrog (which no doubt would have resulted in greater destruction and death in Lothlorien, and perhaps elsewhere), or facing it himself and very likely dying (since no other being in a true body had ever taken out a Balrog without perishing in the process).

In my experience, wise people generally don't go around advertising the fact. Which makes one wonder about "Saruman the Wise," who apparently liked being called that. At least it makes me wonder.

Cirdan, however, seems to have demonstrated the age-old wisdom of discretion being the better part of valor.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Boo Radley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin
My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).


Quote:
'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,'
he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here in signs that
all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin."


That's what I was referring to. And as for not alerting anyone to his presence, why do you say that? As far as I'm concerned, anyone (or thing) with any kind of ability to sense the power he used to light the fire would have known where he was.
__________________

It's a matter of inference. Caradhras was acting as an independent evil force (like Old Man Willow) before Gandalf lit the fire. And the Watcher went for Frodo, not Gandalf. In Moria tthere was no hint of their being discovered by anyone but Gandalf before that fool of a took stirred things up. It's only in the movie that anyone (Saruman) is definitely aware of the Fellowship's actions before they enter Moria.
Note the conditional "if" in Gandalf's comment, and that it was lit during a snowstorm.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Then again, if everyone had acted "wise" -- recalling and acting on all possible available knowledge and the most opportune moments, which is the implication I'm getting of the definition, here -- there wouldn't have been much of a story.

There wouldn't have been much of a story if everybody had displayed common sense in the history of M-E, starting with the Valar and ending with the hobbits. I fully understand that, and part of why I like Tolkien's books is that the beings expected to be the wisest and smartest don't always display those qualities which is rather true to real life.

It's just - and this is where I show myself to be just a teenager for all that I try to sound older - that Celeborn is one of my favorite characters (who I might have just a little bit of a crush on) and I therefore get really upset when everybody is attacking him for his actions. I look at that scene in Lothlorien and what I see is somebody wise enough to admit to his mistakes the minute they are pointed out. Something which all of the Noldor, who are the wisest elves according to many, are unable to do - look how long it took Finrod and his siblings to admit what happened to Thingol. And of Galadriel and Celeborn who came closest to taking the ring?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

It's just - and this is where I show myself to be just a teenager for all that I try to sound older - that Celeborn is one of my favorite characters (who I might have just a little bit of a crush on and I therefore get really upset when everybody is attacking him for his actions. I look at that scene in Lothlorien and what I see is somebody wise enough to admit to his mistakes the minute they are pointed out.

I admit, I never quite understood some of the fannish antipathy toward Celeborn. He did rather blurt out his criticism of Gandalf's plan for going through Moria, but not only did he apologize for it, it's rather understandable that an Elf who may well have seen Balrogs during the First Age might overreact at the announcement that not only has one been living virtually next door all these years, but it just took out a friend of the family. And we all have our favorite characters and will rise to their defense (as I'm sure many have already noted of me when it comes to Gandalf. Though in my case, it's more a role-model, mentorly thing, not a crush. )

That said, Galadriel's remark does indicate that Gandalf had plans of which no one else was aware, and Tolkien only occasionally deigned to give us clear insight as to why he did some of the things he did. Witness the story about the Quest of Erebor in both the appendices and UT, and the "piece of his mind" that he gives to Aragorn and the others after their reunion in Fangorn Forest. We just aren't ever told Gandalf's thoughts about going through Moria, other than that he had thought it might prove necessary. That there were other issues about such a journey under debate is shown through Aragorn's warnings and his attempts to dissuade Gandalf from going into the mines, his presentiments of personal danger for the Wizard. I should have liked to have heard one of their discussions over the matter in some greater detail; it might have cleared up the question of whether or not Gandalf was indeed aware of the presence of Balrog in the mines. But it would have had to be placed either outside the story, or in a reflection after the fact, else it might have given away what for many was a shocking turn of the plot, Gandalf's death.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

When Legolas cries out "A Balrog!", Gandalf's response is, "Now I understand." But he never says precisely what it is he understands. That the evil thing with the orcs is a Balrog? Or that Aragorn's presentiments of danger and doom meant that he would die in this particular way? Or something else entirely?

I took this to mean that Gandalf now understood what the nature of the magical foe was that he faced behind the door at the Chamber of Marzabul. He says shortly after that:

I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before

although it is true that this statement also resonates with Gandalf's early sense that some greater evil dwelt in Moria:

There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.

Celeborn and Galadriel seem to have had similar thoughts:

We have long feared that under Caradhras a terror slept

[Keyan]

I don't think Gandalf knows that there is a Balrog in Moria. I think he knows there is something very powerful and evil, but probably isn't sure exactly what it is.

I feel that the Orcs in Moria are there just because it's a position of strength for them to base their raids from. Also I'm sure they see the Balrog as something of a god, so if they are aware of it, which I would assume they are, they are probably there to worship it. If they are not aware if its presence, then at least it's aura of evil probably drew the Orcs to Moria. I don't think the Balrog sees the Orcs as anything more than cannon (arrow?) fodder and is probably pretty disinterested in them, although it may make use of them when it sees fit.

I think that the Balrog is aware of the fellowship early on, probably even before Pippins little incident with the well, and it is setting up a trap for them as they approach the bridge. Things seem a little too well planned (the fire, etc) for it to just be a spur of the moment kind of attack.

But then again, most of that is just speculation and opinion on my part.