Armies of Middle Earth during WotR

[JeffF.]

Armies of Middle Earth

It has long been an interest of mine to determine the approximate size of the armies of Middle Earth around the time of the War of the Ring. I would like to run my conclusions past the readers and participants of the forum to see if anyone has any additional information to add or suggestions to make. My sources are the LOTR trilogy Ballantine paperbacks Fellowship of the Ring (FR), The Twin Towers (TT), Return of the King (RK), the Hobbit(H), Unfinished Tales (UT) and Lost Tales (LT1&2).

Army of Rohan. 14,000+. UT states plainly that the full muster of Rohan was 100 eoreds each not less than 120 riders. It also states that doubtless many more than 12,000 riders could be mustered so that Theoden would not leave his strongholds undefended even if he did ride with the full muster to Gondor (Theoden states that he might have sent 10,000 to the dismay of his Gondor’s enemies but he will ride with only 6000 because he will not leave his strongholds unmanned). Apparently most of the 1,000 man garrison (aside from the 1,000 Riders Theoden brought) that fought at the Hornburg were infantry and not part of the muster of eoreds (which were mounted), also the 1,000 infantry reinforcements that arrived were also separate so sub-total for Rohan would be about 12,500 cavalry and about 2,000 infantry.

Army of Gondor. 21,000-22,000. Based on Imrahil's comment at the last debate (RK) that the size of the force they were sending against Mordor (seven thousand – including 1,000 Rohirrim) was scarcely the size of the vanguard of the army in the days of its strength. In Medieval armies the vanguard is almost universally 1/3 of the total force. This is also based on the approximate size of the garrison of Minas Tirith (after being reinforced from the fiefs) which I reckon at about 6,000 (3,000 from the fiefs and the estimate of 3,000 in the usual garrison. Added to this were the southern contingents {from the Last Debate (4000 in addition to the several thousand that Aragorn brought with him on the captured Corsair fleet & others that followed on ships after the captured fleet departed)]. The number of defenders being left behind as Aragorn marched to the Black Gate being at least as strong as prior to the siege.

Army of Dain. 2,000 This is based on the strength of Dain's force at the battle of Five Armies (H) 500 axe bearing dwarves (a force solely from the iron Hills), the fact that Thorin requested that the ravens bear word to his kin in the north, west and east (of whom only the iron Hills dwarves had arrived) and the fact that Gimli states that they had increased in strength by the time of the War of the Ring. Tolkein also stated that the axes of Durin’s Folk were few after the War of Dwarves and Orcs.

Army of Dale. 2,000. This is a tenous number based on Bard's force at the battle of Five Armies, the men and dwarves were in one wing and the elves in the other (H). There were 500 dwarves, 1,000 elf-spearmen (and my estimated 1,000 elf-bowmen) so I would anticipate that the dwarves and men together were at least near to the size of the elf wing say 1,000 men plus the 500 dwarves) and the fact that Gimli states that King Brand ruled "many men" and his land extended south and east. A look at the map shows that the logical bounds for such a realm are the rivers Running and Redwater, about half the size of Rohan or a little bigger than Lebinin in Gondor. This area had been severely depopulated but was since on the mend since the demise of Smaug.

Army of Thranduil. 3,000. This is based on his strength at the Battle of Five Armies (H) where he had 1,000 elvish spearmen and the estimate of 1,000 bowmen (the bow being the best known weapon of the Wood Elves) and the determination that he would not have left his forest stronghold unguarded (a reasonable guess that he would not have taken any more than 2/3 of his available warriors).

Army of Lorien 3,500-4,000. This is based on my estimate of the total of Thranduil's army and the various statements in UT that say by the time of the War that most of the Silvan elves lived in Lorien as opposed to Greenwood (which had been opposite in the Second Age – Oropher’s Army of Greenwood was larger than Amdir’s of Lorien – but the Greenwood elves were dwindling in comparison whereas Lorien’s were prospering under Galadriel’s protection) .

Woodmen and Beornings 1,200. This is based on the incident of Isildur's death as told in UT. The woodmen got together a force to contest the 2,000+ orcs that attacked Isildur and his 200 man guard. Given the inferior fighting qualities of orcs it would still require a significant force (say half the number as the orc host plus they would not have left their homes unguarded. Since there were no Beornings mentioned at the time of the hobbit (besides Beorn himself) I assumed they were one people that divided (but kept their cultural ties) by the time of the War and they had a relatively stable population (a great achievement given the evil things that were on the increase in Mirkwood).

[Note: Tolkein’s statement that Sauron’s force sent against Minas Tirith was more than half the total forces sent against the Free People bears heavily on the above estimates – they cannot have been too large]

Hobbitry in Arms. 700-1000. In the Scouring of the Shire (RK) it states that the hobbits numbered several thousand (definitely not including Bree and probably not including those of Buckland either). It is unclear whether these were only the hobbits of Hobbiton but it definitely does include females and children. Given the size of the force at Bywater this number is a reasonable estimate for the total force available to the Thain for defense.

Woses 1,400. I estimate the Woses in the Druadan forest only numbered a few hundred based on their ability to screen (in the forest) Theoden's march but that their kin in the Druwaith Iaur may have numbered around 1,000 since they were able to destroy the remnants of Saruman's army fleeing south from the battle with the Rohirrim (UT)

High Elves 1,500. I estimate that Rivendell probably had only a few hundred High Elf defenders since they were rapidly abandoning Middle Earth (ME) and many of the remainder no longer cared for ME matters. Grey Havens, the Forlond and Harlond probably had slightly larger contingents since most of the Noldor and Sindar refugees were in this area. These would probably defend their havens and Rivendell and not be attacking anyone.


Saruman's Army 13,000-15,000 orcs and Dulendings. This assumes Gandalf's estimate of 10,000 orcs (as stated in his conversation with Treebeard in TT) is correct and estimating that the Dunlendings could field several thousand warriors. It probably was more since this force would have to be able to take on Rohan. I'd prefer to say 20,000 total but Gandalf's estimate shouldn't be that far off.


Sauron's Armies,

In the Druadan forest 6,500-7,000 Easterlings and Orcs. Ghani-Buri-Ghan tells Theoden that a force that numbers "more" than his “score of scores counted ten times and five” waylays the road to Minas Tirith (RK).

At Minas Tirith. 40-45,000. This is a conservative estimate based on the fact that the Haradrim alone outnumbered the Rohirrim 3 to 1 (giving them 18,000) and the fact that Variags of Khand, Orcs and Trolls were also part of the force (RK). Tolkein states that the force sent against Minas Tirith was more than half the total force sent against the western powers (not including the forces that were still gathering in the East & Mordor).

Corsairs of Umbar. 12,000 Southrons. This is based on the strength of Gondor they faced. Aragorn led at least five thousand (based on his conversation in the Last Debate) from the southern fiefs to the relief of Minas Tirith which were followed by four thousand+ more, most of these forces (estimated 9,000+) were presumably fighting the Corsairs who had a significant advantage in numbers (though some may not yet have been mobilized).

At Dol Guldor 8,000-10,000 orcs and trolls. This is a vague estimate based on the fact that Dol-Guldor attacked Lorien three times (failing each), the same force invades Rohan (destroyed by Treebeard); and another force from Dol-Guldor simultaneously attacks Thranduil and is soundly defeated (RK). The force that attacked Lorien included orcs from Moria (most of the Orcs of the Northern Mistly Mountains had been killed at the Battle of Five Armies so the Moria orcs would not have been a large force).

Army attacking Erebor. 6,000 Easterlings. This is also tenous, based on my estimates of the size of Dain's Dwarf Army and Brand's army of Men, the fact that they were initially defeated after a fiercely contested three day battle, and after a siege of the Lonely Mountain (in which both men and dwarves had taken refuge) they emerged to defeat the enemy (RK).

At the Black Gate. 61,000-65,000 Orcs, Uruk Hai, Olog Hai & Hill Trolls, Southrons, Easterlings. This is the clearest since it was plainly stated that they numbered ten times and more than ten times the 6,000 (remaining) warriors of the west standing on the two slag hills before the Black Gate (RK).



I know that the Atlas of ME also makes estimates of the size of forces. I have tried to to this independently based on the same sources.

Any comments on the logic or illogic of my conclusions and estimates?

[Rumil]

Hi Jeff, interesting subject,

will get back to you next week on this when I have some time, can I direct you to a thread 'Battles of the Late Third Age' in the 'Books' section which will show some previous thoughts,

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Great post.

Can I suggest you may have to estimate a higher number of Dwarves? If memory serves me, they had considerable numbers, from several sources, prior to the War of the Dwarves and Orcs which raged in the Misty Mountains when Dain was young.

Although they lost a lot of their number (particularly "burned drarves" at the final battle before the gates of Moria) there must still have been sizeable numbers across Middle-Earth.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

An interesting topic which needs more time for research and consideration.
I think some estimates may be low. For example, I'd view Dain's 500 at
the Battle of Five Armies as a rapid relief force, not a reflection on the
total he could amass (somewhat analagous to Theoden's not having
time to gather Rohan's full strength).

Have you consulted Karen Fonstad's The Atlas Of Middle-Earth ?
She has some interesting detailed breakdowns of forces (particularly
good guys, at the Hornburg and the Pelennor Fields).

Btw, I've been reading The Siege of Vienna , by John Stoye. Do
you think the 1683 siege and relief was an influence on Tolkien, there
is an interesting paarallel in both the siege and the relief, including
the gates to Vienna being virtually battered in.

[JeffF.]

Rumil,

The search function is not active so I tried to find the thread by going through the pages but was unable to find it (I got up to page 30). If possible could you bring the post up by making a posting to it or perhaps re-post it? (or if you could give me an approximate page number?) Thanks.

Mouth of Sauron,

thanks for your reply, I thought long and hard about all my estimates and have raised my estimates for the Dwarves twice. Dain's Army at the Battle of Five Armies was 500 but it was thought more would come. The information from the LotR appendices added that Durin's Folk had suffered several set-backs. In addition to being driven from Moria, they had been driven from their subsequent homes in the North (in the Ered Mithrin Mountains) by dragons who captured their treasures, subsequently Smaug drove the Dwarves from the Kingdom Under The Mountain (Erebor) leaving only the Iron Hills settlement and a few small holdings in the Ered Luin Mountains. The Dwarves would have lost much strength in their battles prior to being driven from each of their homes and more were lost in the War of Orcs and Dwarves and the Battle of Five Armies. Balin had also taken "many" of the Dwarves of Erebor to reclaim Moria and these were all lost with him.

The Silmarillion stated that the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod had shifted most of their population to Khazud Dum (Moria) at the end of the FA, Peoples of Middle Earth states that these would have been Dwarves of the Firebeards and Broadbeams and greatly diminished from the battles of the FA and suffered proportional losses with Durin's Folk in their battles to save their subsequent homes. Presumably the small Dwarf holdings the in north and south of the Ered Luin mountains would mainly be from these Dwarf houses a they sought to salvage what they could from their ancient homes.

Unfinished Tales states that Sauron sent more than half his force against Minas Tirith (not including the forces still mobilizing) and I think my estimate of his force there is a fairly accurate one. The forces sent from Dol Guldor against Lorien (three forces the first of which was destroyed by Ents after being repulsed by the Lorien Elves - according to the timeline in RotK appendices) and those sent from Dol Guldor against Thranduil plus the forces against Erebor/Dale, the Corsairs and the army that blocked the road in the Druadan forest therefore should total slightly less than the 45000 or so that attacked Minas Tirith.

Both Dain and Brand had warnings of impending war (from Fellowship of the Ring - Elrond's council) and can be presumed to have gathered all their forces. Both armies were defeated in battle with the Easterlings and took shelter within Erebor to suffer siege but later emerged victorious after counterattacking. This implies that the Easterlings must have had a significant but not overwhelming advantage in numbers. My estimates for Brand's Kingdom of Dale and Dain's Kingdom Under the Mountain of around 2000 each vs. the Easterling's estimate of 6000 seems to fit this bill. the Dwarves and Men would have marvelous armor and weapons (despite Gimli's statement that they can no longer match their ancestors in making of arms - Fellowship of the Ring) his arms are described in Two Towers as being unmatched by any Rohirrim equipment) and would have been no easy foe for the Easterlings to overcome. 3 to 2 odds are significant in Medieval type battles, this force driven by Sauron's will could overcome the Dwarves and Men but probably at great cost. Once removed from Sauron's will the force became vulnerable to a great sortie by the Men and Dwarves. If the estimates of the Dwarves is made too large than they never would have been defeated by the Easterlings force (remembering that all these smaller Sauron forces must be less than that sent against Minas Tirith). Another factor to consider is that both the Army of Dale and the Dwarf Army sought refuge in the Kingdom Under The Mountain and presumably most or all of their women and children of the Kingdom of Dale so the total forces cannot be all that large.

Remember also that this Dwarf force is just for Durin's Folk (and would not include those from the small colonies in the Ered Luin) though undoubtedly many Firebeards and Broadbeams Houses of Dwarves must have been members of the Kingdom Under The Mountain given their co-habitation of Khazud Dum for thousands of years.

As you can see I try to incorporate every bit of information I can from the books to determine my estimates (it is much like trying to analyze Military Intelligence Reports and coming up with an estimate of enemy strength which I have much practice at!). Of course I am always willing to update my estimates based on subsequent information. are their statements in the books I have missed that makes you believe that Dain's army should be larger?


Tuor,

I have both her original and updated Atlases. I did my research prior to reading her books but our estimates for the most part are similary. The differences are from the different 'assumptions' we made in absence of information.

Regards,
Jeff

[Kuruharan]

I think there are a number of arguments from the text, geography, and the strategic situation that the estimates for the numbers of Easterlings, Bardings and dwarves need to be increased.

First the text as it regards the Easterlings: the way it is phrased it says "a host of the allies of Sauron." We don't know exactly what the nature of the relationship between Sauron and those who worshiped him in the east was, but the way it is phrased gives the distinct impression that this host that assailed the north was not directly Sauron's in the same sense that his orcs were. Make of that what you will, but to me it seems that gives us more liberty to move the estimate of the Easterlings upwards. Then there is the fact that the Battle of Dale lasted for three days. Regardless of the situation regarding Dale (more on that below) three day battles are not fought by 4,000 soldier armies against 6,000 soldier armies, just the duration of the conflict alone argues that there were substantial forces arrayed on both sides that had to be chewed through.

It’s clear from the text that the war in the north proceeded through a couple of stages, although what those stages looked like are open to possible interpretation. Initially, in spite of his earlier wavering, Brand bravely sallied forth and contested the Easterling march across his lands and was repulsed. What Brand's intentions with this were are open to two interpretations. Brand could have intended merely a fighting retreat to cover the evacuation of his people from the plains or he could have intended to hurl his enemies back across the river. The word used to describe his return to Dale is "driven." I personally think the implication of the word "driven" means he intended to drive the Easterlings back across the river and that a battle was fought in the plains, a conflict that probably entailed potentially severe losses for the Bardings and at least some losses for the Easterlings as well. I think this conflict drives up the probable number of combatants on both sides upwards (if for no other reason than for there to be enough of them left on both sides to gleefully be hacking each other's heads off several days later).

The vagueness of the text continues to be frustrating regarding the Battle of Dale itself (blast Tolkien's non-obsession with the dwarves and their doings). The particularly pesky problem is the town of Dale itself. Was an attempt made to defend it or not? This question cannot be answered with any degree of certainty but I think part of the reason why the Battle of Dale lasted for three days is that initially the Bardings and dwarves did attempt to defend Dale and that Dale was either stormed and sacked or was conceded in face of superior opposition. One may take their pick on which of those happened as there truly is no way of knowing, however if one adopts the thesis that Dale was stormed outright and sacked one is by necessity forced to accept that the number of Easterlings involved in the attack must spiral upward to encompass a vast enough host to take a fortified place quickly in the face of what must have been very determined and stubborn opposition and be willing to accept (and even shrug off) the staggering losses they probably took in doing so...and then be able to besiege the mountain afterwards. The besieging the mountain afterwards is key. You can't besiege a mountain with only 6,000 soldiers...it just can't be done. The besieged would (and in this case undoubtedly did) have all sorts of ways of harrying you and harassing you in the rear and attacking you from all different points. The Easterlings must have had the numbers to be able to sustain themselves through this sort of harassment and maintain some sort of blockade around the mountain.

Personally, and based upon no real evidence except my own thoughts on the situation, I think King Brand and King Dain did concede Dale to the enemy in the face of the hopelessness of holding it. The thought progression that I believe they had went something like this. Initially after the decision was made to resist King Brand was not accurately informed as to the size of the enemy confronting him and believed there was some hope in marching out to hurl them back. Obviously this did not go well and he was driven back into Dale. I think the Easterlings probably followed hard upon his heels not giving him much time to evacuate his city. I believe that some kind of stand was made in Dale, not for the purposes of holding the town long term, but to give time for the town to be evacuated and its people transferred into the mountain. Probably part of this action was a lot of carnage surrounding defending the people of Dale as they made their passage from Easterling marauders who bypassed the town to try to get at them. Once the city was evacuated, Dale became more a liability than an asset and was abandoned and a fighting retreat to the mountain by the defenders began. This was the time of the heaviest fighting of the battle as the defenders tried to win to the Gate and the Easterlings tried to stop them. The defenders made it, alas without their two kings. Dain strikes me as the sort who would live and die by the notion of being first in the attack and last in the retreat and given the certainly venerable (and probably more than a little awe-inspiring) nature of the example next to him Brand could hardly do otherwise himself (even if he was inclined to do otherwise and I rather doubt it). I think Dain and Brand were in the rearguard of their armies as they were heading into the mountain and were probably in the very last rank as their troops passed through the door. It was there that Brand fell. Who knows what might have passed through Dain's mind at the time, whether he despaired of ultimate victory and thought that was the time for him to go so he didn't have to live to see his people fall, if he was killed defending the body of King Brand as others were trying to drag it inside and he had no intention of getting himself killed, if he wanted revenge and had no further thoughts in his mind than his wrath or if he simply succumbed to battle-madness. It would be a shame if Dain did give in to despair at the end, but the way the text is phrased it gives the implication of one who no longer has any expectation or desire of living and Dain doesn't seem like one to just simply be overcome by battle-madness.

So...where does this leave us on the question of numbers? I think the strategic as well as geographic considerations necessitate an Easterling force of at least 20,000 and probably more, perhaps including a very high proportion of horsemen. I think King Brand's full force (which he may never have had with him at any one time during the campaign) was probably less than but nearing 10,000ish, remembering that Brand ruled wide lands beyond just Dale itself. I think Dain commanded something on the order of 5,000-6,000, which may seem very high to some, but there are reasons. The text describes the dwarves as having become "strong" again in their new capital. The dwarves had always been the core of the power in that little region and that argues some degree of numbers in itself. True, many dwarves had been lost in the expedition to Moria but there doesn't seem to be any indication that Erebor was cripplingly depopulated as a result although it was diminished.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF and all,

slowly catching up with all this that was going on while I was travelling.

First a few old threads that may be useful for the discussion-

How Many in the Battle of the Five Armies?

Soldiers Available in ME

Gondor: Population and Casualties

A few extra thoughts-

Rohan could raise about 10,000 infantry (local militia probably) as well as the eoreds.

Gondor -really tricky! When were the 'Days of Power' that Imrahil mentions? We don't know which Age that he's referring to even.

The Fiefs might be able to raise 30,000 as 3,000 at MT are a tithe of their strength, unless this was an exaggeration!

By total guesswork I reckon that Minas Tirith City itself might raise something around 12,000 men, the crazy guess being - MT could hold 100,000 people based on historical cities, but this is within an order of magnitude! (not as low as 10,000, almost definitely less than 1 million). By LoTR it contained half that number ie 50,000 people, half male ie 25,000, maybe half of fighting age so about 12,000. OK this could be a lot lower or higher, but you get my drift. JeffF's estimate sounds within a range I'd be happy with.

Dain, Thranduil, Lothlorien, Woodmen & Beornings and High Elves I'd agree with. Remember Isildur was 3000 years ago so a lot would have changed in that time!

Dale I'd reckon a bit bigger after their recent expansion, Woses maybe fewer.

Hobbits - less than a few hundred bounders and shirrifs, but thousands of partly-armed hobbitry when 'roused'.

Saruman - I'd go for the higher estimate, as the 10,000 orcs were those at Helm's Deep, therefore not counting any casualties and detachments involved in the Fords of the Isen, Ugluk et al, and the men and halforcs of various types.

Sauron -
waylaying the East Road - spot on.

Attack on Minas Tirith, I think huuuge numbers, but 80-90% of them comparativley useless orcs and snagas. I think PJ computer-generated about 200,000 to make it look like a big army, not that this means much . Nice mention of the Siege of Vienna by Tuor, similarly huge besieging army but mostly composed of unenthusiastic conscripts around a small core of good troops. If I remember it was said that they chained artillerymen to their guns to stop them running away, which sounds unpromising! Also echoes of Byzantium in my mind.

Dol Guldur - likely a lot more, it was re-occupied with sevenfold strength after the White Council threw out the Necromancer at the time of The Hobbit. As JeffF said, in LoTR they mounted a number of attacks and got beaten each time, possibly split their forces? Cardinal error! Lack of Nazgul direction?

Easterlings etc - would agree with Kuru that the Sauronic numbers here should be larger though would be less inclined to increase the Dwarf and Dale (and Laketown) numbers so much. Would also imagine orcish allies turning up from the old holds that could have regained their population after Bo5A.

Black Gate- 'ten times and more than ten times' - a problematical phrase. Could mean 10x (ie 60,000), 10x plus a bit more (70-80,000), 10x plus 10x plus a bit more (around 150,000) or even 10x x 10x plus a bit, (700,000!!! - not v likely). I'd go for one of the middle estimates, clearly the Allies were going to be wiped out unless the Ring was destroyed.

I guess the key thing is that the majority of the Sauronic forces are orcs that are clearly qualitatively inferior to most troops (eg Denethor surprised that Boromir was slain by orcs alone, relative casualties in Eomer's battle, etc etc). Think Challenger or Abrams tanks versus T55s !

[JeffF.]

I'm convinced by statements in RotK and Unfinished Tales that the full muster of the Rohirrim pertains to almost all the men of military age. In UT Eorl describes his force that he takes south to Cirion's rescue as the entire force available to him except for a few hundred riders that he leaves behind to support those too old or too young to make the ride.

In RotK Theoden is describing his host. He says that he might have led 10000 men to the dismay of Gondor's foes but that it will bel less (6000) because he will "not leave his strongholds all unmanned." This is a decisive statement. He would not have thought about leaving 4000 riders if he had ten thousand infantry (which if they existed would be better suited to defend The Hordburg and Dunharrow.

In UT Cirion and Eorl the lands that are given to the Eorlingas are all but unpeopled. The Rohirrim were a horse culture and by far were the majority. Helm and his men are described as having mixed with the few people who were already in the area (shorter and darker than the Rohirrim) ahd the two thousand infantry described in Two Towers are likely not Riders of the Mark though undoubtedly some were dismounted infantry who lost their horses at the Battles of the Ford of Isen.

A large force of infantry cannot be reconciled with Theoden's description and the anguished decision he must make as he decides how many men to take with him to Gondor.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

what a busy Bank Holiday!

The reference for the 10,000 infantry is from an earlier draft in HoME, so perhaps not to be taken as 100% reliable. In this early version they include men on foot and mounted on ponies (possibly some sort of mounted infantry?) plus volunteers from the Woodmen and even some reconciled Dunlendings. We certainly see foot soldiers at Helm's Deep and the Fords of the Isen.

I've thought that Rohan is really like two countries, one around the foothills and mountains thats more settled (probably some farmers), townsmen of Dunharrow, Edoras, Aldburg etc, similar to Dark Age English. The other of semi-nomadic herdsmen on the plains (Goth-like, given the acknowledged device of Rohirric names changing from earlier to later forms of Germanic).

Eorl was 400 years ago, so a lot had changed, plenty of scope for 'multiplication' of the Rohirrim .

Agree that it may well be less than 10,000, but the infantry might not be sufficiently mobile to concentrate against any major attacks, just to put up a defence at the various strongpoints, and would likely be a part-time militia (seen too many summers, or too few!). We see upto 2,000 foot in the Westfold, could there be similar numbers in the Eastfold and Edoras district for approx 6,000 in total? These could not put up much oppostion to a major attack from Dol Guldur, though with some thousands of cavalry left behind should just about get away with it.

Though it does make Theoden's decision seem a little less heroic.

Perhaps Grima had made some 'defence-cuts' on the sly between the 2 versions

[Boromir88]

Just a couple points of discussion to bring up.

Rumil

Attack on Minas Tirith, I think huuuge numbers, but 80-90% of them comparativley useless orcs and snagas.

I disagree, Karen Fonstad in her Atlas of Middle-Earth does put out a conservative estimate of 45,000. It could have been more than this, because she was primarily basing it off of the 3:1, or 4:1 ratio (Sauron's forces vs. Gondor's and Allies). It was said that the Easterlings thrice outnumbered what the Rohirrim had set out with (6,000). So that places the Easterlings with 18,000.

Now she estimates the force that left Minas Morgul to be 20,000, which is a pretty good estimate because it was the 'largest force' that left the fortress since Isildur's time.

Then the unnumbered "reserves" that Gothmog throws in, is more of a filler number to keep the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. So on the conservative a total would be about 45,000, the upper end probably 60,000.

It can't be larger than the army at the Black Gate, because that was Sauron's largest army. And I don't think there is much ambiguity with the "10 times and more than 10 times." Tolkien was very careful with his word selection, there was not one of his "600,000 words" that he did not go over and reconsider...and reconsider a third time. 70,000-80,000...has just been the more familiar one with me, anything above 100,000 is verging into PJ territory who took great liberty to inflate the numbers (especially orcs).

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs). Now there aren't specifics about the army at the Black Gate, other than being "10 times and more than 10 times." That could very well be mostly comprised of Orcs, but Sauron seemed to rely heavily on Men to make up his armies. At Minas Tirith and against the Dwarves, which was an entirely Easterling force.

I remember one of Kuru's threads a while ago, about Dwarves...hmm I should probably try to find it. But The Silmarillion does say:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Estimating their numbers will be pretty hard, because I had the impression they mostly just ignored the "global" issues, sticking to themselves, except Durin's folk. However, we also know they were an extremely warlike race, so when they actually were spurred to fight, I would imagine every male in the colony would take up arms. This creates some problems with numbers, because despite few ever fighting for either side, when they actually did fight, they could gather everybody.

It would be a shame if Dain did give in to despair at the end, but the way the text is phrased it gives the implication of one who no longer has any expectation or desire of living and Dain doesn't seem like one to just simply be overcome by battle-madness.~Kuru

I agree. The text seems to indicate that not only was Dain a mighty warrior at his great age, but also an extremely competent (and effective) leader for the dwarves.

But Dain Ironfoot was a worthy successor. And now we hear that he fell fighting before Erebor again, even while we fought here. I should call it a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.~UT: The Quest for Erebor

A "worthy" successor for a dwarf I think is more than simply a dwarf who knows how to wield an axe. I will use Gondor as an example...Tolkien loved front-line leaders who were not hot heads, perfect example is Faramir. He did not look to highly at the "chateaux generals" (of WW1) who led millions of men to slaughter while they sat away from the front lines in their French mansions (Denethor or Sauron), and even though Boromir led from the front-line he was "rash and ever anxious..." two not so noble sounding qualities in a leader. The Dwarves always looked out for their own interests (as really I think most Men and Elves did too!), and I would imagine prefer a leader who can not only fight at the front with his men, but remain composed.

From what little we know of Dain, I always saw him closer to Faramir's quality of leadership. Not only did he lead from the front-line, but every decision was based upon upon the care of his soldiers and people...getting everyone into Erebor and falling at the gates looks more like a Faramir move (as Boromir tells the council it was him Faramir and two others were the last to hold the bridge before they blew it.) and not someone in a battle-frenzy. Some may think Dain's response to Sauron's messenger as "dragging his feet," but I always saw it as more of an attempt to honestly assess the situation they were about to face. Gloin says Dain feared King Brand would yield, and denying Sauron's messenger was simply a strategy to buy Dain (and the dwarves) time to consider their options.

[JeffF.]

I have long been bothered by the low strength of the Men of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebor in fact I revised their estimated strength upwards a couple of times. One of the statements that has been important in affecting these was one by Gandalf in Unfinished Tales, going back over the sources of my notes I found that I made a mistake in this particular citation. Gandalf did not say that Sauron used more than half his strength in attacking Minas Tirith rather he said he used more than half his strength attacking Gondor. This simple change has drastic effect on the estimates of the Easterlings who attack Dale & Erebor and the strength of Dol Guldor who attacks Lorien three times and Thranduil once. These upward revisions of estimates for their enemies also cause an upward revision of the strength of the Men of Dale, Dwarves of Erebor and Elves of Greenwood (though still had to account for the limits of the force sheltering within Erebor). Gimli's statement in FotR that some Dwarves (like Balin) felt they had the strength and numbers to return to Moria and another in UT that Thorin's dwarves were increased by the wandering people of Durin's Folk give weight to increasing the Dwarves estimate. It is likely that Dwarves of other houses besides the Firebeards and Broadbeams also joined the Kingdom Under the Mountain (as the Firebeards and Broadbeams did with the Longbeards in Khazud Dum after the destruction of Nogrod and Belegost attracted by the wealth and vigor of Dain's kingdom. As for Dale the Hobbit states that there were many settlements of men south of Laketown (Esgaroth) and these would have come under the dominion of Dale (the logical borders being River Running and River Redwater).

I revise my estimates: Dwarves: Kingdom Under the Mountain 3000, Iron Hills 1500 (vassals of the Kingdom but separate). Kingdom of Dale 3000 infantry, 1000 cavalry (with half located outside the environs of the City of Dale mostly from Laketown down the River Running). Thranduil's Army 4000 archers and spearmen and Lorien's Army 4500. These odds still account for the initial loss, the retreat of (most) of Dale's Army and Erebor's into the Mountain and the later sortie that defeats the Easterlings once they are removed from Sauron's will.

The Easterlings attacking Erebor/Dale/Iron Hills I estimate at around 15000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. The Orcs and Trolls of Dol Guldor (reinforced by those from Moria) I keep at the upper end of my previous estimate at 10000 with a few hundred trolls (these attacks on Lorien and Thranduil were so decisively beaten/wiped out that they could not have had much of an advantage in numbers. I still take Gandalf's statement that the enemy has few horsemen as canon. Though the forces attacking in the North were not near half of Sauron's initial force as a soldier I think Sauron would recognize that the attacks on Minas Tirith and Gondor were his 'Main Effort' (to use a modern military term) and would have allotted his forces accordingly (and all these initial hosts were aside from the 60-65000 he used to face the Captains of the West at the Black Gate).

[Kuruharan]

How do you reconcile such tiny numbers of dwarves with the statement that they had grown "strong" again? The population of the dwarves may only grow slowly, but it still capable of growth. Durin's Folk had been mighty enough to provide the bulk of the forces that fought a victorious war against the orcs when they didn't have a settled capital. Why the presumption that they wouldn't be able to field a substantial force when they did have a settled capital?

Upon what are you basing the belief that Erebor would not be able to accommodate substantial numbers of refugees as well as substantial forces in the event of a siege? I suspect that if nothing else the physical size of the dwarven city in the mountain was probably greater than Dale, if not substantially larger (I think it was probably substantially larger). Why couldn't the dwarves have accommodated large numbers of Bardings in their hour of need?

Easterling Theorizing:

I think that given the largely unmitigated flatness of the areas of Rhun, which are visible on the map, that many of the Easterlings were horsey lots and their army composition would reflect that. I picture something along the lines of a steppe culture and army.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Easterling Theorizing:

I think that given the largely unmitigated flatness of the areas of Rhun, which are visible on the map, that many of the Easterlings were horsey lots and their army composition would reflect that. I picture something along the lines of a steppe culture and army.

The way I see it the Easterling army is entirely heavy infantry and light cavalry. I also picture a steppe culture but the army being less steppe like than the actual culture.

Also on a side note I would like to point something out about the numbers. For Mordor instead of it being say 65000 it is more like 65328 troops. I am sure you are all aware of this but I always feel the need to state the obvious.

[JeffF.]

The overall populations around Northwest Middle Earth seemed small (as the author of the Atlas of Middle Earth points out). Every Dwarf hold mentioned except for the Iron Hills is described with words as 'small' or 'few.' The account of the last battle of the War of Dwarves and Orcs shows that the Dwarves suffered immense casualties. Thorin's description of Smaug's decimation of Erebor states that only a few dwarves who were outside the mountain escaped and most were killed. Earlier the Dwarves of the Ered Mithrin had also all been killed or driven away by the dragons who coveted their wealth. These accumulated disasters must have had a drastic effect on the numbers of Durin's Folk. I'd say my estimates are only possible if dwarves of other houses joined the recreated Kingdom Under the Mountain. "Grown strong again" has to be put in the context of these previous losses.

Gandalf's knowledge of the composition of the enemy armies I take to be a result of his mind battle with Sauron (as he describes upon his reunion with Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli. Much like Frodo's vision of the Easterlings as he wore the ring to escape Boromir. Gandalf's description that the Enemy has few horsemen is not based on any immediate reports (the besieging army has only begun to cross at Osgiliath).

I notice that the Atlas of Middle Earth shows only Rohan as being composed of 'plains' and that for most of the clear areas depicted in the maps of LotR she describes as partial woodlands (compared to pure woodlands like Greenwood and Lothlorien). No doubt plains must have existed in the East, the Wainriders (who mainly used the chariot) must have evolved in such a land but for me the bottom line is Gandalf's description. The books should be regarded as canon except when there are contradictory statements and later statements made that correct earlier thoughts or descriptions.

[Kuruharan]

"Grown strong again" has to be put in the context of these previous losses.

But on the other hand we have to have a certain level of people present for a kingdom to be considered powerful at all. Erebor had to be one of the largest concentrations of dwarves remaining in Middle-earth, I think we can all agree on that. Based on your numbers, you seem to be proposing that only around 10,000-20,000 dwarves (including females and members of other houses) existed at all in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. That is impossible to swallow.

And we still have the problem of three day battles not being fought by armies of such tiny numbers. If the dwarves and Bardings were truly as few as you suggest, the Easterlings could literally have just rushed up and lain down on top of them and smothered them and that wouldn't have taken more than a day (see the demise of Isildur). The duration of the battle is a powerful argument that your numbers must be adjusted upwards, and rather substantially at that.

Gandalf's description that the Enemy has few horsemen is not based on any immediate reports (the besieging army has only begun to cross at Osgiliath).

Beg to differ with you on that. The Gondorians at that point would have had some idea of the type of enemies facing them. And why, at a rather critical juncture, would Gandalf be bothering to relay strategic information about the global composition of Sauron's forces when what mattered right then and there was whether the Witch-king had a bevy of horsemen to hand? And, indeed, the way Gandalf phrases that particular line it sure sounds to me like that want of horsemen was only a temporary situation while the Witch-king got them over the river. Gandalf seems to be saying to my eye that the sortie must be made right then while the enemy still had few horsemen on the west side of Anduin.

Just because the Witch-king had few horsemen on the ground at that very moment (or at least few in comparison to the rest of his forces) doesn't mean Sauron or his allies had few elsewhere in the world. Theoretically, Sauron wouldn't have wanted many horsemen at a battle where the geography all around was largely constrained and the primary battle was going to be a siege...although he certainly seemed to have scads of them around in the Battle of Pelennor.

In sum, I don't believe that line has anything to do with the global composition of Sauron's forces.

In the North, on the other hand, there were much larger distances to cover and (as far as we can tell) the pretty flat kingdom of Dale to overrun before they got to the town of Dale itself. Different geographies call for different types of troops.

[JeffF.]

I think small numbers are a hallmark of Tolkien's Middle Earth. in the Silmarillion the Army of Gondolin was said to have numbered 10000 at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. When Turgon abandoned Hithlum to move to Gondolin he was said to have taken 1/3 of the Noldor with him and yet the larger number of his folk were of Sindarin origin. Let's say the 10000 was 2/3 of his army (leaving 1/3 to guard its seven gates and city walls. If 15000 represents his army and of those say 7000 were Noldor (& 8000 Sindar) then the Noldor overall were a small population.

Gimli's statement that only 1/3 of Durin's Folk were women and that not all of those married would also be representative of a population that is small and hard to recover numbers from disasters. Though numbers are not given for the Battle of Dagorlad the numbers of Dwarves that fought on either side was said to be few. A reasonable explanation for this was that in comparison with other kinds of folk they WERE few in number.

Tolkien does not describe some huge Haradrim cavalry charge at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. The Haradrim Chief and his horsemen are said to have seen Theoden and that few of Theoden's men were about him. Theoden "becomes aware" of him and though "fewer in number" their superior knighthood routs the Haradrim. This is not a Tolkienesc description of a huge charge rather a small engagement within a larger battle.

Though no canon exists for it I do believe that Erebor was the largest concentration of Dwarves. The realm of Durin's Folk, of the Eldest of the Dwarf Fathers, seemed to draw dwarves of all the houses. They shared Khazud Du with Broadbeams and Firebeards and their army in the War of Dwarves and Orcs had contingents from all seven houses.

[Kuruharan]

I think small numbers are a hallmark of Tolkien's Middle Earth.

Nobody is suggesting otherwise.

However, an army of 10,000 is by no means an unreasonably small force and is in fact quite respectable. Calculate that back to the number of people in Gondolin who were not warriors and you arrive at a population of no mean size or significance.

Gimli's statement that only 1/3 of Durin's Folk were women and that not all of those married would also be representative of a population that is small and hard to recover numbers from disasters.

But there were many years between many of those disasters, which is plenty of time for some population rebuilding, even among slowly reproducing races.

A reasonable explanation for this was that in comparison with other kinds of folk they WERE few in number.

Which brings up the point of they could have turned up in numbers of 10,000-20,000 or more and still appeared "few" in comparison to the other armies of Free Peoples. And who is to say the amount of his total forces Durin sent to war in comparison to his total army? He may have only sent a picked force that was not truly representative of the size of the army he could have fielded. Perhaps that was all he was asked for...or perhaps being a dwarf, and dwarves usually having a shrewd idea of what their interests might be beyond the interests others think they should be, he may only have sent what he saw fit. I don’t recall if its explicit from the text that the king even went himself.

The Haradrim Chief and his horsemen are said to have seen Theoden and that few of Theoden's men were about him. Theoden "becomes aware" of him and though "fewer in number" their superior knighthood routs the Haradrim.

Again I must beg to differ with your reading of the text.

Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars.
-The Battle of the Pelennor Fields (emphasis mine)

Sounds like the Harad chief had lots of guys with him.

Not that it really matters to the overall point I was trying to make above.

[JeffF.]

The Battle of Five Armies resulted in the destruction of "three parts" of the Goblins of the North. In UT Tolkein uses "three parts" to describe a length of march that was 3/4 completed so it is reasonable to assume he means the same ratio in regards to the Orc losses. This was a major battle as Gandalf points out in UT and RotK Appendices and only involved 500 Dwarves (aside from Thorin's 13), 1000 Elf spearmen (presumable a similar number of archers) and enough men so that the Dwarves and Men were about the same number of elves (as the Dwarves and Men took one wing and the Elves the other). This battle involving about 4000 Elves, Men and Dwarves was considered a major battle and significant event and comparable to the final battle of the War of Orcs and Dwarves leading one to believe they were similar in scale.

Thorin states in the Hobbit that the Dwarves of Erebor did not feed themselves rather they depended on lucrative trade to bring in their foodstuffs. These facts and the series of disasters of Moria, Ered Mithrin, Erebor (which can only be compared to the decline of Arnor/Arthedain in scope) all point to small Dwarf numbers as opposed to large by the WotR. The North in particular seems to be underpopulated. Fonstad in her Atlas makes similar conclusions.

Only once is Khazud-Dum referred to as having numerous folk and this long before the string of disasters. Thereafter no mention is made of large Dwarf hosts, even during the War with the Orcs that army was of all seven Dwarf houses. For us who wish to believe in large Dwarf armies (believe it or not I am one) it would help if there was at least one referece or example of one in the Third Age.

[Farael]

So here's a thought calling for moderate numbers of Dwarves and men of Erebor and still a three-day fight

Something I've always found interesting in LoTR and Middle Earth in general is how some characters never tire out. Now, elves and dwarves may be super-human but let's take the example of a (very exceptional) man.

At the beginning of TTT Aragorn:
-Runs with little or no rest for three days
-Sleeps one night by Fangorn. He was probably grieved by the (apparent) loss of the hobbits, but let's say that he was used to grief being a warrior and he slept well anyway.
-Walks into Fangorn, meets Gandalf, walks out and then shortly thereafter rides in a hurry to Edoras.
-Has a meal in Edoras and then he rides out with the host of Theoden
-After camping up for the night, the fleeing/retreating men find their group and they decide to ride on to Helm's Deep (so no sleep there)
-The battle of Helm's Deep lasts through the night and into the morning
-They ride to Isengard and they get one night of sleep on the way there, interrupted by the Huorns moving around
-They get to Isengard, deal with Saruman, and leave, riding back that same day
-At some point after camping up for the night Pippin does his thing and then a Nazghul flies by, prompting everyone to rush out
-The Grey Company catches up with them and they ride on to Dunharrow
-They spend the night in Dunharrow and then ride to the paths of the dead
-If I'm not mistaken, they spend the whole day going through it and then riding like mad to make it to the gathering point at the right time

Things become fuzzy after that, as we don't exactly know if he rested on the way to intercept the Corsairs, but let's just stop here and count

The bolded part amounts to two and a half days WITHOUT SLEEP (other than possibly quick, interrupted naps). That is after three days of extreme physical effort. FOLLOWED by more extreme physical challenges. And after that, he still fights before the walls of Minas Tirith

Now, Aragorn is a very special man, but even if the men from Dale were half as strong as he was, three days of fighting against unreasonable odds would be possible. Furthermore, even if they were regular men, it would be possible if the terrain was just right! As far as I know, it is not told WHERE the battle took place, perhaps King Brand was a master strategist who managed to funnel the enemy somewhere their overwhelming numbers were useless.

And here's another thought. Orcs seem to be easy to kill. We can all agree that army against army if orcs don't have a significant advantage in numbers they are done for.

Furthermore, I don't know where that quote came from, but it was said here that about half the forces in Pelennor were orcs (the rest thus being men). It seems to me that the forces of Sauron had numbers STRONGLY on their side and yet they were routed. Badly. Furthermore, a significant portion of the battle was fought on the fields, so it wasn't as if they were ONLY trying to take the city and being foiled by the great walls that stopped them from using their numbers...... so my question is

What makes you think that the evil humans were harder to kill than orcs?

So, if we have
a) An enemy that's relatively easy to kill
b) Men who don't tire easily AND
c) The right terrain so that even the limited force of men and dwarves can keep a significant portion of their number in reserve (and thus resting)

You COULD have a three-day engagement.

Disclaimer: Unfortunately I'm going by memory here so I could have messed up somewhere. Try to look at the whole picture of what I'm saying and not nitpick about something I missed! Not that you folks nitpick, of course.

[Kuruharan]

1000 Elf spearmen (presumable a similar number of archers)

Another thing that puzzles me is why every always latches onto this 1000 spearman thing as if presuming that the Elvenking launched all his melee forces at the goblins in that initial attack...when mere sentences later it says that the elves charged again "with renewed numbers." And then after many of his spearmen charged with Thorin, the Elvenking was still able to make a formidable stand on Ravenhill. I think the estimates of the Elves could probably need to be raised a bit and the numbers of Men also in proportion.

Anyway...

Thorin states in the Hobbit that the Dwarves of Erebor did not feed themselves rather they depended on lucrative trade to bring in their foodstuffs.

So did many cities of antiquity and the medieval period who did not have enough farmland in their immediate area to support their populations...and some of these cities were very large indeed (Rome, Alexandria and Constantinople immediately leap to mind). There is nothing there to guide an estimate of dwarven population, certainly not enough to consider it to be a limiting factor by default.

Thereafter no mention is made of large Dwarf hosts, even during the War with the Orcs that army was of all seven Dwarf houses. For us who wish to believe in large Dwarf armies (believe it or not I am one) it would help if there was at least one referece or example of one in the Third Age.

Our accounts of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs are scanty at best. Understandably enough, given the topic at hand, you seem to be looking for Tolkien to give specific references to numbers in his works, that just isn't something he did very often. We have to instead rely on some common sense and guesstmiation based on the things he did say and the parallels we can draw to events in our own world.

Just to gain some perspective, the numbers I am proposing could hardly be considered "large" in an absolute sense. They certainly are not large in comparison to the forces I'm proposing to array against them. They are only large in comparison to the paltry handfuls others seem willing to assign them. Handfuls which to me seem too extreme given the nature of the strategic and tactical situations based upon the things Tolkien did tell us about the war in the North.

but even if the men from Dale were half as strong as he was, three days of fighting against unreasonable odds would be possible. Furthermore, even if they were regular men, it would be possible if the terrain was just right! As far as I know, it is not told WHERE the battle took place, perhaps King Brand was a master strategist who managed to funnel the enemy somewhere their overwhelming numbers were useless.

That really didn't work so good in the Battle of Five Armies, though. That one only lasted about half a day.

And it depends on which battle you are referring to for King Brand to be a strategic genius. If you mean the battle out in the plains where he was driven into Dale...the land out there seems flat and without choke points. If he'd fought out there outnumbered by more than 2:1 he wouldn't have made it back to Dale at all, he would have been swallowed whole.

If you mean the three day Battle of Dale itself, we are told that it was fought "around the mountain's feet" and I really rather doubt Brand was calling the shots at that one.

Furthermore, I don't know where that quote came from, but it was said here that about half the forces in Pelennor were orcs (the rest thus being men).

I don't recall that quote either.

But lets assume that is true. It is certainly true that Sauron's orcs didn't put up much of a fight once they were flanked by Aragorn. If I recall correctly it was the Easterlings and Haradrim who were mainly described as putting up most of the fight in the Pelennor fields. However, if you take the orcs out of the equation as being a routing rabble (which does seem plausible)...you are suddenly left with Sauronic human forces that certainly don't outnumber the repeatedly reinforced forces of the Free Peoples nearly as much as had at the start. They may not have been much more numerous at all, probably not to the point of even 2:1 at that point. Given the superior (and greatly buoyed by two improbable saves) morale and the superior weapons of the Gondorians and Rohirrim, its hardly surprising they won the battle. Even so the battle was described as fierce and many Gondorians and Rohirrim were killed in it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What makes you think that the evil humans were harder to kill than orcs?

Sunlight. Sauron brewed the Great Darkness for the sake of his sun-hating Orcs, but the great wind from the Sea (Manwe? Ulmo?) swept it away at dawn and the Pelennor was fought in broad daylight.

[Boromir88]

Furthermore, I don't know where that quote came from, but it was said here that about half the forces in Pelennor were orcs (the rest thus being men).~Farael

Well there is no one single quote that will state that, but taking from various quotes from Pelennor Fields, it seems like a pretty even Men to Orc ratio.

The total number tends to range from 45,000 to 60,000...this was not Sauron's largest army. His largest was at the Black Gates, and being "10 times and more than 10 times" larger than the 7,000 from Aragorn. The most consistent numbers I have seen is from 70,000 to 80,000, but if someone wants to argue the force was larger, go for it.

But, currently that means, at Minas Tirith the low estimate is 45,000 and it can't be greater than 70,000.

We know 18,000 of them were Easterlings, because the Easterling's thrice outnumbered the Rohirrim had at the start, which was 6,000.

There are an unnumbered amount of "reserves" that Gothmog throws into the battle, but all of them were men:

He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.~Battle of Pelennor Fields

Whether these were just a couple thousand, or tens of thousands, I think it certainly evens the Orc to human ratio, if not showing that Men comprised the majority of Sauron's army that he attacked Minas Tirith with.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A brief not, Karen Fonstad agrees with the ratio of
men being a bit over 1:1 at the Pelennor Fields.
Mordor and Morgul-host---20,000 (est.)
Allies: Haradrim, Near and Far Harad---18,000
Rhun, Khand---7,000 (est.)
Total for Mordor---45,000

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Farael

What makes you think that the evil humans were harder to kill than orcs?

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Sunlight. Sauron brewed the Great Darkness for the sake of his sun-hating Orcs, but the great wind from the Sea (Manwe? Ulmo?) swept it away at dawn and the Pelennor was fought in broad daylight.

Also, the Orcs were small chaps and hardly a match for the tall and strong Men of Rohan and Gondor in one-to-one combat. I think this shows though clearly in the recount of the Battle of the Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales, perhaps the most detailed description of fighting Tolkien provides us with.

When the fellowship was attacked in Moria the Orc who wounded Frodo is described as "a huge orc-chieftain, almost man high". Coupled with the fact that Frodo and Sam dress up as Orcs and get away with it this seems to suggest that regular orcs are only slightly larger than Hobbits but significantly shorter than Men, not to mention the tall Numenorians. The Uruk Hai were about as tall as men as far as I can remember (a quick browse didn't provide any clears anwers) which I interpret as them being shorter than taller than average Men like Gondorians or the Rohirrim.

[JeffF.]

The discussion at the Last Debate in RotK provides information from which a good estimate can be made for Gondor's forces in this battle. The Rohirrim casualties were about 2000 of the 6000 they brought to that battle giving a casualty ratio of 1/3. The Rohirrim probably suffered a slightly higher ratio of casualties since they were the longest engaged (from the transition from siege to open battle) but the forces in Minas Tirith and Aragorn's force from Pelagir would have suffered almost as much.

Of the seven thousand troops Aragorn leads toward the Black Gate 1000 are Rohirrim (500 on foot - the remaining surviving 3000 Rohirrim sent against the enemy force on the Druadan forest road). Aragorn selected 2000 of those he brought from the South and Imrahil was to find 3500 but also 500 more that included the Knights of Dol Amroth (a total of 4000 from the initial defenders of the city). If we apply the 1/3 ratio of casualties to both these forces the city's initial garrison should be greater than 6000 and Aragorn's force from the South greater than 3000 (allowing each force to suffer the same approximate 1/3 casualty ratio as the Rohirrim and still provide the numbers specified). The words of the narrative leads one to believe that these would have been only a part of each force so that the estimate of Minas Tirith's initial garrison's (that includes the 3000 that came in from the outlands) should be around 7000 and Aragorn's force about 4000. Other factors might have played into the size of Aragorn's and Imrahil's contingents like exhaustion. Some of Aragorn's force fought at Linhir and Pelargir before making the long hard pull up Anduin to the battle but some of Minas Tirith's force would have been equally strained having fought at Osgiliath and the Causeway prior to the siege but both these groups (say 1000 each) can be accounted for in the estimate and likely would have been allowed to remain in the city as Aragorn led relatively fresher troops to attack Mordor.

The description of the forces that followed Aragorn (but too late for the battle) support these since they would allow the city to have at least as many defenders as it had at the beginning of the siege.

[Gordis]

It is a very interesting thread. I have little new to contribute, but I have some observations/questions...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs).

I don't think the force leaving Minas Morgul were mostly orcs. Certainly not all were orcs: orcs don't ride horses and there was a huge cavalry detachmant:

And out of the gate an army came.
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons: those were brightly clad, IIRC, with serpent-banners. So - were they Black Numenoreans? Or maybe wraiths? And what has become of this black-clad cavalry later? - I am not sure it was mentioned at the Pelennor.

As for the rest of the army, I don't know, but their description doesn't sound much like Orcs: silent, orderly etc. Of course, maybe they were just well-trained and much intimidated by the WK at the moment.

[JeffF.]

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

I doubt not that there were Haradrim at the Pelennor - yet there is no evidence that the Haradrim cavalry had issued from Minas Morgul.

Instead we learn that the army of Harad had joined the Morgul host on the East bank of the Anduin:

It was night again ere news came. A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall. ‘And we have learned ‘ said the messenger, ‘that the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.’

You may note that Frodo saw no Mumakil in Mordor Host, but they were present at the Pelennor. Haradrim are describes as "Southrons in scarlet" and they have scarlet banners with black serpent. Nothing like that was observed among the Minas Morgul host in the Morgul Vale.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And the force Frodo saw ambushed in Ithilien was one of Haradrim, complete with Oliphaunts- but this was north of the Morgul road, so presumably they were bound for the Morannon.

On the other hand, in Tolkien's unpublished Chronology the army from the Morannon comprised Orcs and Easterlings, not Haradrim, and was the force which crossed at Cair Andros and held the North Road to block the Rohirrim (which Theoden bypassed via the Stonewain Valley, and Elfhelm destroyed some days later).

It's worth observing that the Morgul-host took hours to pass, Frodo wasn't watching it most of that time, and it's never mentioned exactly who was in it- save that it was led by "a great cavalry of horsemen." These last couldn't have been Orcs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

And the force Frodo saw ambushed in Ithilien was one of Haradrim, complete with Oliphaunts- but this was north of the Morgul road, so presumably they were bound for the Morannon.

Yes. But it doesn't make much strategic sense - why send the Haradrim to Morannon bypassing Minas Morgul, from where the main attack was to be launched? Perhaps Sauron wanted them in his bigger army?

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

On the other hand, in Tolkien's unpublished Chronology the army from the Morannon comprised Orcs and Easterlings, not Haradrim, and was the force which crossed at Cair Andros and held the North Road to block the Rohirrim (which Theoden bypassed via the Stonewain Valley, and Elfhelm destroyed some days later)..

Exactly, and the troops that came from the Morannon via Cair Andros are also listed in the LOTR text: no Haradrim, only Easterlings:

The new host that we had tidings of has come first, from over the River by way of Andros, it is said. They are strong: battalions of Orcs of the Eye, and countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem. They hold the northward road; and many have passed on into Anórien.-LOTR

Actually they seem to be the same ones that Gothmog later held in reserve.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's worth observing that the Morgul-host took hours to pass, Frodo wasn't watching it most of that time, and it's never mentioned exactly who was in it- save that it was led by "a great cavalry of horsemen." These last couldn't have been Orcs.

I have reread the passage: I am not sure that the Morgul-host took that long to pass . Maybe it felt like hours, but in fact Frodo only had time to think of Faramir, of his errand and weep.

They could have been Men of Mordor - maybe some were Black Numenoreans, or half-bloods, maybe others were Haradrim in origin but living and serving in Mordor, not fresh from Harad like the scarlet-clad ones. After all, it is not like all Mordor was populated exclusively by orcs.

Interesting that the infantry of Minas Morgul is said to be armed with swords and spears: I am not sure: do orcs carry spears?

[Boromir88]

Interesting that the infantry of Minas Morgul is said to be armed with swords and spears: I am not sure: do orcs carry spears?~Gwath

According to the Departure of Boromir, it sounds like scimitars were the normal weapon of choice for Orcs, and the four "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" carried short broad bladed swords. However, I would imagine the larger Orcs could wield a spear. The large black-orc, in Moria, that attacked Frodo did.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

According to the Departure of Boromir, it sounds like scimitars were the normal weapon of choice for Orcs, and the four "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" carried short broad bladed swords. However, I would imagine the larger Orcs could wield a spear. The large black-orc, in Moria, that attacked Frodo did.

Thanks, Boromir.
+ the big soldier crc (who was killed by a small tracker orc) also carried "a short broad-headed spear". So, some of the infantry of Minas Morgul could have been orcs.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The mumaks at least can be rationalised thusly: it would have been very difficult to take them over the Morgul Pass (twice, once each way); and there was no room for them in Minas Morgul. So to Udun they went.

Of course this would mean backtracking them to the Osgiliath crossing- but that was the only way across (after the Anduin was bridged): in fact all the heavy stuff, siege towers and artillery and Grond, would have to have gone that way. Certainly not by boat at Andros! Since the Mumakil are not reported at the forcing of the River, in fact not until the Pelennor itself, there was at least time (five days) to get them there.

This raises the possibility that the Morgul-host was the assault force at Osgiliath and the causeway forts, but that it was reinforced once the bridgehead was secured by troops from the Morannon, not all of whom crossed at Andros (indeed, simply blocking the Rohirrim wouldn't require an especially large army, and certainly Elfhelm and a fairly small force was able to defeat it afterwards.

It may be relevant that Sauron was precipitated into launching the attack early (by Aragorn with the Palantir) and his logistical planning was thrown into some disarray. The collision of Orc-columns later near the Isenmouthe, which allowed Frodo and Sam to escape, must be only a very small illustration of the sort of chaos Sauron's quartermaster corps was dealing with on March 9-10!

To get all fanficcy, one might suppose that under the earlier plan before it was disrupted, the Anorien-force included engineers whose task was to throw a bridge over at Andros (Caesar bridged the Rhine in ten days), and that the heavy Morannon forces would have proceeded thence and moved on MT from the north- this would at least simplify the supply difficulties inherent in relying on a single bridghead.

They could have been Men of Mordor - maybe some were Black Numenoreans, or half-bloods, maybe others were Haradrim in origin but living and serving in Mordor,

Why not just Haradrim? No Black Numenoreans or Men of Mordor are ever mentioned in the battle- the only cavalry was Southron.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Why not just Haradrim? No Black Numenoreans or Men of Mordor are ever mentioned in the battle- the only cavalry was Southron.

Because their appearence differed. Because no scarlet banners were observed in the Morgul Vale. There were no reports of Haradrim marching to Minas Morgul, only to Morannon. The Host of Harad joined the army before Anduin crossing. And where ARE Men of Mordor after all?

I know these are no definite proofs, but these considerations give me pause.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

Armies of Middle Earth

It has long been an interest of mine to determine the approximate size of the armies of Middle Earth around the time of the War of the Ring. I would like to run my conclusions past the readers and participants of the forum to see if anyone has any additional information to add or suggestions to make. My sources are the LOTR trilogy Ballantine paperbacks Fellowship of the Ring (FR), The Twin Towers (TT), Return of the King (RK), the Hobbit(H), Unfinished Tales (UT) and Lost Tales (LT1&2).

Army of Rohan. 14,000+. UT states plainly that the full muster of Rohan was 100 eoreds each not less than 120 riders. It also states that doubtless many more than 12,000 riders could be mustered so that Theoden would not leave his strongholds undefended even if he did ride with the full muster to Gondor (Theoden states that he might have sent 10,000 to the dismay of his Gondor’s enemies but he will ride with only 6000 because he will not leave his strongholds unmanned). Apparently most of the 1,000 man garrison (aside from the 1,000 Riders Theoden brought) that fought at the Hornburg were infantry and not part of the muster of eoreds (which were mounted), also the 1,000 infantry reinforcements that arrived were also separate so sub-total for Rohan would be about 12,500 cavalry and about 2,000 infantry.

Army of Gondor. 21,000-22,000. Based on Imrahil's comment at the last debate (RK) that the size of the force they were sending against Mordor (seven thousand – including 1,000 Rohirrim) was scarcely the size of the vanguard of the army in the days of its strength. In Medieval armies the vanguard is almost universally 1/3 of the total force. This is also based on the approximate size of the garrison of Minas Tirith (after being reinforced from the fiefs) which I reckon at about 6,000 (3,000 from the fiefs and the estimate of 3,000 in the usual garrison. Added to this were the southern contingents {from the Last Debate (4000 in addition to the several thousand that Aragorn brought with him on the captured Corsair fleet & others that followed on ships after the captured fleet departed)]. The number of defenders being left behind as Aragorn marched to the Black Gate being at least as strong as prior to the siege.

Army of Dain. 2,000 This is based on the strength of Dain's force at the battle of Five Armies (H) 500 axe bearing dwarves (a force solely from the iron Hills), the fact that Thorin requested that the ravens bear word to his kin in the north, west and east (of whom only the iron Hills dwarves had arrived) and the fact that Gimli states that they had increased in strength by the time of the War of the Ring. Tolkein also stated that the axes of Durin’s Folk were few after the War of Dwarves and Orcs.

Army of Dale. 2,000. This is a tenous number based on Bard's force at the battle of Five Armies, the men and dwarves were in one wing and the elves in the other (H). There were 500 dwarves, 1,000 elf-spearmen (and my estimated 1,000 elf-bowmen) so I would anticipate that the dwarves and men together were at least near to the size of the elf wing say 1,000 men plus the 500 dwarves) and the fact that Gimli states that King Brand ruled "many men" and his land extended south and east. A look at the map shows that the logical bounds for such a realm are the rivers Running and Redwater, about half the size of Rohan or a little bigger than Lebinin in Gondor. This area had been severely depopulated but was since on the mend since the demise of Smaug.

Army of Thranduil. 3,000. This is based on his strength at the Battle of Five Armies (H) where he had 1,000 elvish spearmen and the estimate of 1,000 bowmen (the bow being the best known weapon of the Wood Elves) and the determination that he would not have left his forest stronghold unguarded (a reasonable guess that he would not have taken any more than 2/3 of his available warriors).

Army of Lorien 3,500-4,000. This is based on my estimate of the total of Thranduil's army and the various statements in UT that say by the time of the War that most of the Silvan elves lived in Lorien as opposed to Greenwood (which had been opposite in the Second Age – Oropher’s Army of Greenwood was larger than Amdir’s of Lorien – but the Greenwood elves were dwindling in comparison whereas Lorien’s were prospering under Galadriel’s protection) .

Woodmen and Beornings 1,200. This is based on the incident of Isildur's death as told in UT. The woodmen got together a force to contest the 2,000+ orcs that attacked Isildur and his 200 man guard. Given the inferior fighting qualities of orcs it would still require a significant force (say half the number as the orc host plus they would not have left their homes unguarded. Since there were no Beornings mentioned at the time of the hobbit (besides Beorn himself) I assumed they were one people that divided (but kept their cultural ties) by the time of the War and they had a relatively stable population (a great achievement given the evil things that were on the increase in Mirkwood).

[Note: Tolkein’s statement that Sauron’s force sent against Minas Tirith was more than half the total forces sent against the Free People bears heavily on the above estimates – they cannot have been too large]

Hobbitry in Arms. 700-1000. In the Scouring of the Shire (RK) it states that the hobbits numbered several thousand (definitely not including Bree and probably not including those of Buckland either). It is unclear whether these were only the hobbits of Hobbiton but it definitely does include females and children. Given the size of the force at Bywater this number is a reasonable estimate for the total force available to the Thain for defense.

Woses 1,400. I estimate the Woses in the Druadan forest only numbered a few hundred based on their ability to screen (in the forest) Theoden's march but that their kin in the Druwaith Iaur may have numbered around 1,000 since they were able to destroy the remnants of Saruman's army fleeing south from the battle with the Rohirrim (UT)

High Elves 1,500. I estimate that Rivendell probably had only a few hundred High Elf defenders since they were rapidly abandoning Middle Earth (ME) and many of the remainder no longer cared for ME matters. Grey Havens, the Forlond and Harlond probably had slightly larger contingents since most of the Noldor and Sindar refugees were in this area. These would probably defend their havens and Rivendell and not be attacking anyone.


Saruman's Army 13,000-15,000 orcs and Dulendings. This assumes Gandalf's estimate of 10,000 orcs (as stated in his conversation with Treebeard in TT) is correct and estimating that the Dunlendings could field several thousand warriors. It probably was more since this force would have to be able to take on Rohan. I'd prefer to say 20,000 total but Gandalf's estimate shouldn't be that far off.


Sauron's Armies,

In the Druadan forest 6,500-7,000 Easterlings and Orcs. Ghani-Buri-Ghan tells Theoden that a force that numbers "more" than his “score of scores counted ten times and five” waylays the road to Minas Tirith (RK).

At Minas Tirith. 40-45,000. This is a conservative estimate based on the fact that the Haradrim alone outnumbered the Rohirrim 3 to 1 (giving them 18,000) and the fact that Variags of Khand, Orcs and Trolls were also part of the force (RK). Tolkein states that the force sent against Minas Tirith was more than half the total force sent against the western powers (not including the forces that were still gathering in the East & Mordor).

Corsairs of Umbar. 12,000 Southrons. This is based on the strength of Gondor they faced. Aragorn led at least five thousand (based on his conversation in the Last Debate) from the southern fiefs to the relief of Minas Tirith which were followed by four thousand+ more, most of these forces (estimated 9,000+) were presumably fighting the Corsairs who had a significant advantage in numbers (though some may not yet have been mobilized).

At Dol Guldor 8,000-10,000 orcs and trolls. This is a vague estimate based on the fact that Dol-Guldor attacked Lorien three times (failing each), the same force invades Rohan (destroyed by Treebeard); and another force from Dol-Guldor simultaneously attacks Thranduil and is soundly defeated (RK). The force that attacked Lorien included orcs from Moria (most of the Orcs of the Northern Mistly Mountains had been killed at the Battle of Five Armies so the Moria orcs would not have been a large force).

Army attacking Erebor. 6,000 Easterlings. This is also tenous, based on my estimates of the size of Dain's Dwarf Army and Brand's army of Men, the fact that they were initially defeated after a fiercely contested three day battle, and after a siege of the Lonely Mountain (in which both men and dwarves had taken refuge) they emerged to defeat the enemy (RK).

At the Black Gate. 61,000-65,000 Orcs, Uruk Hai, Olog Hai & Hill Trolls, Southrons, Easterlings. This is the clearest since it was plainly stated that they numbered ten times and more than ten times the 6,000 (remaining) warriors of the west standing on the two slag hills before the Black Gate (RK).



I know that the Atlas of ME also makes estimates of the size of forces. I have tried to to this independently based on the same sources.

Any comments on the logic or illogic of my conclusions and estimates?

Wow,why the dwarves and bardings troops are so small?they would have been more at the time of wotr.my estimation is probably 10000 dwarves and 15.000 to 20.000 bardings.that just a hunch though.also,couldnt mordor have 200.000 orcs at minas tirith?it was says that the host of minas morgil had 65.000 orcs alone.as for the easterling,maybe 100.000 but that probably too large.