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11-28-2008, 09:50 PM | #1 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?
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So which is it? Was Sauron flying or faking?
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11-29-2008, 02:57 AM | #2 |
shadow of a doubt
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I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.
Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?
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11-29-2008, 04:34 AM | #3 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I agree with what skip said here. Sauron has retreated, but of course first the Council would have needed to have enough power to drive him out in the first place. Otherwise, he would have just merrily remained in Dol Guldur. It was certainly not easy to drive him away from there, Gandalf says:
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So, I hope it is clear now. In short: Sauron was driven away, i.e. he had to leave Dol Guldur, was forced to do it. However, knowing beforehand about the attack, he prepared himself - of course he would not just disappear, that would have been indeed curious, and besides, there was always a chance that he would actually win the fight against the Council. Also, I doubt he knew "on 13th August at 5:30 AM they will attack", in fact, the Council did not know until very late that they will attack themselves! (It was decided very fast in place.) So, one day Sauron simply looked out of his window and saw the enemies rushing through the forest, and he thought "Ah, so it has come". Therefore, some battle needed to be fought. The other option would be to leave Dol Guldur empty, but when? He could leave on the 13th August at 5:30 AM and it will later be shown that the enemies planned to attack only five months later. Sauron preferred to stay in the place as long as he could, which makes perfect sense. Quote:
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11-29-2008, 04:45 AM | #4 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.
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11-29-2008, 08:17 AM | #5 |
Sage & Onions
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Mysterious Devices
Hi All,
more speculation on the 'attack' on Dol Guldur here (and links within)- http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1511 From the texts I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or the other whether a physical attack happened. However, I'm inclined to think that there were Elven troops deployed, together with Saruman's devices and some sort of 'magical' backup from the Wise.
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11-29-2008, 08:30 AM | #6 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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11-29-2008, 10:17 AM | #7 |
shadow of a doubt
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I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.
And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.
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11-29-2008, 10:38 AM | #8 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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11-29-2008, 11:48 AM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power. As honey-tongued a liar as Saruman showed himself to be, he was an amateur compared to Sauron, who managed to convince the King of Numenor that he was truly surrendering to him and was so sufficiently defeated and demoralized that it was safe to take him back to Numenor as a "hostage." It didn't take long before Sauron was able to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his court, and it wasn't long after "fleeing" Dol Guldur that Sauron openly took up residence in his real stronghold, Barad-dur, and began making trouble on a much grander scale. I'm blanking a bit on some of Sauron's activities in the First Age, but if I'm recalling correctly, he did some "fake fleeing" back then, too. He knows when it's foolish to keep on fighting -- when it's time to employ the maxim "he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day" -- and if he can fake his enemies into thinking he is fleeing because he is near-mortally wounded or vastly overpowered, even better. That would lull them into an at least temporary sense of relief and security, so that they will not be expecting retaliation from him any time in the near future, and thus may be surprised and caught unprepared when it comes.
My nickel's worth, at any rate.
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11-29-2008, 06:31 PM | #10 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Nonsense? Nonsense! Unfactual perhaps, reaching maybe, but nonsense? Pfffttt! I offered a perfectly good conspiracy theory, and like any good conspiratorial illuminator I eschewed actually looking up silly little points as to who did what with whom and when or where, and glossed over anyone's actual intentions. It's not the facts that make good propaganda, its the juicy story! Geeze, Leggy, get with the program!
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12-01-2008, 09:18 AM | #11 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc? Something just doesn't sit right. And I'm going to have to read more about the Army of the White Council; who were they and what were they doing during the battle of the Five armies (or do I have my history mixed up?)?
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12-01-2008, 01:13 PM | #12 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Simply: It was by the device of Saruman that Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur. He deserves the credit, I think we can imagine it the way that had not Saruman been present, Sauron would have remained in Dol Guldur. Is what I have in mind clear enough from what I say? Had Sauron not been driven out of Dol Guldur, he would have caused mischief in Mirkwood all the time. This way, we can guess his forces in the North were largely diminished and also, during the Watchful Peace he could not cause more mischief in the North. Quote:
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12-01-2008, 01:43 PM | #13 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Okay, so I'm punting. What grand stratagem or device does anyone think Saruman discovered that aided in the fumigating of the Necromancer's abode?
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12-01-2008, 02:04 PM | #14 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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12-01-2008, 04:05 PM | #15 | |
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About an "army" of the Wise, though.... I don't believe Tolkien intended for the reader to believe that they actually had a standing militia. When I get back to that bookshelf, I believe I shall go rooting through the Letters as well. May shed some light on it.
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12-01-2008, 05:48 PM | #16 |
Cryptic Aura
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Foolishly fudging, with fantastical forewarning freakishly floundered.
*curtsies*
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12-02-2008, 08:03 AM | #17 | |
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Speculating on the second quote speaking of "some weapons that would drive back the Nine" I'd actually rather think of his voice as a possibility as well:
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12-02-2008, 08:06 AM | #18 |
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Based on what I have perused thus far, I am unconvinced that there was some sort of standing army that drove Sauron from Dol Guldur. The absence of an actual siege and breaking of the towers (which did not occur until Galadriel returned there at the end of the War of the Ring), and Saruman being relied on to supply his devices, indicates (to me, anyway) that the White Council's singular mission was to force Sauron to flee, and not to invest or besiege Amon Lanc.
The questions remain, if the White Council did indeed have an invasion force, why did they not topple the topless towers and lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur, and thus cleanse that loathsome place? Why leave such a scar on the land that years later Legolas and his kin would find it nearly unbearable to pass it by? Why not destroy it then and there so that it could not be remanned (or re-orced perhaps) with evil creatures, as it was during the War of the Ring? Rule number one in warfare regarding capturing an enemy stronghold is to either repopulate it with your own forces, or destroy it so it cannot be used again. To me, logic dictates that the White Council did not have a strong numerical force for investment.
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12-02-2008, 09:27 AM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan. As Saruman had most thoroughly studied the arts of the Enemy (possibly even having a sort of inside track on things because of their mutual origin as Maiar of Aule), the Council may have deferred to his wisdom in such matters and implemented his plan for a confrontation with "the Necromancer." It may or may not have included such things as his "blasting fire" (I tend to think that if it did, it was used minimally, since Dol Guldur does not appear to have suffered significant physical damage from the attack). If they came at Sauron with enough non-physical power to make him fear that they might actually succeed in overwhelming him and taking him prisoner, I doubt he'd have much compunction about deserting his minions and hieing himself back to the safety of his much greater stronghold in Mordor.
Just an early morning thought. Still haven't gotten to the books....
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12-02-2008, 11:57 AM | #20 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.
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12-02-2008, 12:06 PM | #21 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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12-02-2008, 12:24 PM | #22 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I hope you are not suggesting that Aragorn was there in Dol Guldur. Putting aside that he never was there, he was ten years old when the attack took place...
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12-02-2008, 12:34 PM | #23 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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Because while Gandalf says: Quote:
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12-02-2008, 12:52 PM | #24 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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12-02-2008, 01:03 PM | #25 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Further back in M-e history, Utumno and Angband were both purposely destroyed in separate wars (not as systematically as one would like, of course, because Angband had to be reduced twice). But one would think a scholarly loremaster such as Elrond or a long-lived Noldo like Galadriel would insist on such destruction as a matter of course, based on previous experiences of their race, unless their primary concern was to drive Sauron off, as it would seem unlikely and naive if they believed he could actually be utterly destroyed, even with Saruman's shiny new devices. Therefore, it is evident to me the White Council did not have a legion of Elves storming the ramparts (the same mythical army that, of course, saved Helm's Deep).
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12-02-2008, 01:35 PM | #26 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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My foster-father went to Dol Guldur and all I got was this T-shirt.
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12-02-2008, 02:05 PM | #27 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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And as for the first question - why after: with Dol Guldur, Galadriel has been already warned by the past mistake, so she decided to "lay bare all pits", as it is written, and destroy the fortress in Southern Mirkwood - who knows, what if there remained a "Balrog" (whatever) hidden beneath it and after a few years in the Fourth Age, it returned? Or, such a fortress would have been tempting for some Fourth-Age-sorceror to take residence in. No, this place had to be cleansed, and also for the safety of the Elves (no more spiders!), and also so that they could return to Amon Lanc
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12-02-2008, 06:41 PM | #28 | |
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Hmmm...and then there is Galadriel. She seems to have escaped the multitude of mistakes made by her more 'hasty' counterparts within the Noldor race: she spurns Feanor; she eschews the violence and murder rampant in the Kin Slaying, yet still follows her objective of finding greater realms to rule; she ingratiates herself to Melian and learns wisdom in Doriath when most other Noldor are forbidden to enter the Girdled Realm; she sees through Annatar's disguise and rejects him, whereas Celebrimbor greedily accepts the veiled Sauron; she welcomes Gandalf and wisely puts him ahead of Saruman in council; she rejects the Ring even when it is offered to her freely. All this seeming wisdom, savvy and common sense, and yet she makes such a glaring error? And both Gandalf and Elrond with her on the White Council -- supposed wisdom personified in Middle-earth -- and not enough sense between them to destroy Dol Guldur when it has been overrun by an army? As Shakespeare would say, 'Ah, there's the rub!' I reiterate, there was no army, Dol Guldur was not overrun and controlled by the White Council, and their only objective at the time was to destroy Sauron if they could, or at least drive him in any case. That being done, they did not have the force to destroy Amon Lanc, and they left. Only when Galadriel and Celeborn actually brought their army from Lorien was Galadriel able to destroy Dol Guldur.
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12-03-2008, 11:34 AM | #29 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Still, the point of it is: I don't see the non-destruction of Dol Guldur as an argument for the assumption that there was no army there. In all honesty, even a commando of a hundred Wood Elves would have a problem with destroying the walls of Dol Guldur - what would they do, shoot at the bricks with arrows?
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12-03-2008, 11:58 AM | #30 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Methinks that it was more like the oft-maligned Neville Chamberlain deal where the White Council came back with a promise from Sauron that he would pack up and go and then put the place up for sale or rent. The base master of lies probably got the Council on the hook for moving expenses.
Another one of Elrond's 'fruitless victories.' However it happened, Gandalf still for a time believed that Sauron was driven out by Saruman (even though Sauron planned to leave anyway).
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12-03-2008, 12:45 PM | #31 |
shadow of a doubt
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In all honesty, this whole Dol Gúldur episode makes little sense, army or no army. I'm leaning towards the army alternative though (Celeborn and Elrond's men, supported by Saruman's devises, whatever those may be) as to me it's more plausable. If there were no army, are we then to believe that Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Elrond trekked across Middle Earth all by themselves to oust Sauron the Great from his feared stronghold, no doubt defended by Orcs and Eru knows what? That seems a tall order to me.
Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.
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12-03-2008, 11:50 PM | #32 | |
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12-16-2008, 09:47 PM | #33 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Just to add a little history regarding Dol Guldur, find below a list of entries from the LotR Appendix B - Third Age:
About time! So if I'm doing my math right, for 1919 years, give or take, Dol Guldur was occupied except for 10 of those years when Sauron feinted. Reading the Appendix, do you know how much happened in those almost 2,000 years? How much better had Galadriel stepped across the River a few years sooner.
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