The Nine Walkers

I have always wondered what would have happened if Elrond chose himself to be part of the Company, and perhaps along with Glorfindel, and others within his realm that were of similar power and guile. Could seven of the most powerful servants in Rivendell alongside Frodo and Sam have served a better role during the War of the Ring?

Would Elrond's Knowledge have helped the Company see them through their journey to Mordor without entering Moria?

Would Denethor have listened more to Elrond's counsel as opposed to that of Gandalf in Minas Tirith?

How would the Witch King have reacted to seeing Glorfindel or Elrond instead of his encounter with Gandalf at the gate of Minas Tirith?

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I have always wondered what would have happened if Elrond chose himself to be part of the Company, and perhaps along with Glorfindel, and others within his realm that were of similar power and guile. Could seven of the most powerful servants in Rivendell alongside Frodo and Sam have served a better role during the War of the Ring?

How would the Witch King have reacted to seeing Glorfindel or Elrond instead of his encounter with Gandalf at the gate of Minas Tirith?

The word "better" could be substituted for "more interesting". I mean, look at what the Fellowship did. It got the Ring destroyed and the non-Mordorian foes of the West soundly defeated. A new fellowship might not be able to accomplish that.
If the Witch King had seen Glorfindel again, if might have freaked out and fled the field.

[Groin Redbeard]

I think that I can pretty much sum up this question with a single quote.

Originally Posted by The Ring Goes South

"Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the Road to the Fire by the power that is in him." -Gandalf

The advantage for the Fellowship would be in secrecy, not in power, although they did have some the best warriors in Middle Earth accompanying them.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would Elrond's Knowledge have helped the Company see them through their journey to Mordor without entering Moria?

Gandalf's wisdom could have rivaled that of Elrond, and unless Elrond could stop the storms of Caradhras there was no way that his knowledge would have been to any avail.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would Denethor have listened more to Elrond's counsel as opposed to that of Gandalf in Minas Tirith?

I think that since Gandalf actually knew Denethor, a strange elf- lord showing up on his doorstep telling him what to do would infuriate Denethor and hurt his pride more than help.

Originally Posted by Mansun

How would the Witch King have reacted to seeing Glorfindel or Elrond instead of his encounter with Gandalf at the gate of Minas Tirith?

This question I cannot answer. Glorfindel was the only one who could openly do battle to the Witch King, and Elrond would have been as much of a match for him as Gandalf. Though the Witch King shows a great amount of arrogance in talking to Gandalf as if he was an "Old Man" on a horse. We never get to see any fighting happening, so I'm not 100% sure how it would have gone down, but I'm sure Glorfindel or Elrond couldn't do any better than Gandalf would have.

But there was no visible way that they could know of all those situations. Remember the Fellowships hope was in speed and secrecy.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I think that I can pretty much sum up this question with a single quote.



The advantage for the Fellowship would be in secrecy, not in power, although they did have some the best warriors in Middle Earth accompanying them.


Gandalf's wisdom could have rivaled that of Elrond, and unless Elrond could stop the storms of Caradhras there was no way that his knowledge would have been to any avail.


I think that since Gandalf actually knew Denethor, a strange elf- lord showing up on his doorstep telling him what to do would infuriate Denethor and hurt his pride more than help.


This question I cannot answer. Glorfindel was the only one who could openly do battle to the Witch King, and Elrond would have been as much of a match for him as Gandalf. Though the Witch King shows a great amount of arrogance in talking to Gandalf as if he was an "Old Man" on a horse. We never get to see any fighting happening, so I'm not 100% sure how it would have gone down, but I'm sure Glorfindel or Elrond couldn't do any better than Gandalf would have.

But there was no visible way that they could know of all those situations. Remember the Fellowships hope was in speed and secrecy.

It is possible that the great lords of Rivendell could have offered more knowledge to the advantage of the Company and the Quest, whilst at the same time delivering all the enhanced skills for combat and secrecy of movement and going unseen that great elves are renowned for. Certainly in Minas Tirith there would have been more morale if more than just one great lord came to their aid before the onslaught of Mordor.

Denethor, I recall, favoured Elrond to be the wisest of all the Loremasters in Middle Earth, according to Boromir. That is partly why Boromir was sent to Rivendell, to seek the counsel of Elrond. Though what good he could have done for Denethor but perhaps talking him out of taking his life is beyond me. I would think Denethor seeing Elrond as a strange elf lord would have been most alarming, given the history of this great sire, in particular in his role in the Last Battle against Sauron 3,000 years before. Surely his coming, as with the Sword of Elendil, would have rekindled hope and glory. Victory by arms could have been a dream again.

If the Witch King had one great lord to contend with, logic suggests he would have given the same mocking treatment as he did with Gandalf. If he was up against two lords, then he would almost certainly have reverted to plan B (retreat, then drive his armies into terror and to assault Minas Tirith for him).

[Groin Redbeard]

You make some valid points that I never thought of, Mansun. However, the elves were beginning to fade away into the west and the dominance of Men was becoming visible, especially once Elessar ascended the throne of Gondor. Could it be that Elrond saw this war as a war for the future age of Men? I'm not saying that the elves would be completely dormant, but not taking an active role, as they have done before; instead men would be the dominant figures to decide their own fate. Sort of like winning their spurs.

Then again that's just me: full of crazy ideas!

[Rumil]

Hi all,

see previous comments here-

What if Elves went instead of Merry and Pippin-http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2555

Cheers,

Rumil

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

see previous comments here-

What if Elves went instead of Merry and Pippin-http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2555

Cheers,

Rumil

This thread takes things to another level to the one you have referenced, Rumil, as it asks what may have happened if the majority of the Company chosen were elf lords from Rivendell. Elrond is also Half Elven, not elven. This thread also seeks to look at what impact Elrond in particular could have had during the trek of the Nine Walkers.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Also there was the estrangement with even the Edain, and that while Gandalf was still accepted as a "wizard" in the guise of an old man, an immortal high elf would not have mixed well among the Rohirrim or even the Gondorins. Also, the movement of such a personage would have been easily marked by spies of the enemy. Recall Gandalf's regret at revealing his power in the Redhorn Pass, or that after his return he still used his grey rags to conceal his new strength and light. Glorfindel would have stood out -- shown or shined -- wherever he went, and little could have counteracted his nature.

Three final points: (1) An overriding strategy was to occupy the Enemy's gaze, and Elrond's and Glorfindel's staying in the North would have kept some part of Sauron's attention directed that way. He would have still viewed them as a threat and a focus of his Malice, even as Elrond knew their role and powers to be passive and no longer meant to project power in an aggressive sense. Consider Varya's attributes. Their only true contribution to the cause was Sauron's fear of them.

(2) Elrond may not have wanted himself or any of his people to be tested by prolonged exposure to the Ring. They were still at heart proud and powerful High Elves, who probably nurtured some some sense of how they thought things should be. Gandalf and Aragorn had already passed the test, and in fact, possessed simpler, purer types of nobility and strength, and they appreciated the world of Men. The others of the Nine walkers were generally less complicated and unaffected.

(3) More Elves would have meant fewer Hobbits, which of course, could serve as decoys, even sacrificial ones, but also could step in as substitute ringbearers, if necessary. Unexpectedly, they also played the role of non-intimidating emissaries among Ents and Men.

[Eönwë]

Well, there's obviously Sam and Frodo. Without them there is no fellowship. But other than that I'll give it a go:

First of all, you can't replace Gandalf. More powerful than an elf lord, and much more easily hidden. And I don't know what some of you think, but Gandalf would totally "pwn" (but that's 7th age speak, and not commonly used at that, so I don't thibk he'd use that particular word himself) the Witch King. But that's a discussion for another day (But let's just say this: He's a match for a Balrog. And the WK is- or was- a man).

Aragorn's fate is tied to this so he definately had to go.

Legolas could have been replaced but he helped them a lot (especially in Lorien- but I suppose Gandalf and Aragorn could have done that anyway. But it wouldn't have been as easy). And without him, we wouldn't have that acrobatic, sliding (on shields or Oliphaunt trunks) horse-jumping-onto elf of the movies, and we wouldn't be able to make fun of the "fangurls".

Gimli is important because if Gloin and Bilbo couldn't be in this together, then they need a representative/heir/descendant. After all, if it wasn't for the dwarves, Bilbo wouldn't have found the ring, so they need a dwarf to lose/get rid of it again.

Well, we all know that Boromir might have been better replaced by Faramir, but that is also another discussion. But the fellowship wouldn't have split up so easily (In a good way) if he hadn't died, Faramir wouldn't have found Frodo later on (instead it would have beeen Boromir, who would have taken it). The sight of Gondorian lord would also have probably intimidated the Rohirrim, as they were already on slightly unfriendly terms (If I remember correctly), and Gondor were the rulers.

Now, about the hobbits. Earlier on, it might have been better for the fellowship to replace Merry and Pippin with great warriors. But in the battle where Boromir was killed, would the Uruks have spared to great elf-lords. Something tells me they would much rather kill them, and delight in doing so. Then there would be no-one to cause the Ents to go to war. Elfs would indoubtedly be better at talking to trees, bu would they have survived? Also, the Merry and Pippin would would have probably been killed, or at least not been in the right mind to head a rebellion. The Thain would just have been another boring person as before, even as a Took, he would not be so inflamed to fight and wouldn't have been experienced enough. The Shire may well have fallen if not for those certain hobbits going on the Quest.

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

If elf lords are to be seen as vulnerable due to their power which the enemy could perhaps detect more easily (though this is not proven), what then can be said of the presence of Gandalf in Mordor (as was the original plan), and the power of the Ring when Frodo entered Mordor? Sauron, for instance, did not detect the power of the Ring until Frodo put in on in Mount Doom. I am sure elves may wear cloaks to help conceal their power to a degree as with Gandalf, such as the cloaks of Loth Lorien.

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Also there was the estrangement with even the Edain, and that while Gandalf was still accepted as a "wizard" in the guise of an old man, an immortal high elf would not have mixed well among the Rohirrim or even the Gondorins. Also, the movement of such a personage would have been easily marked by spies of the enemy. Recall Gandalf's regret at revealing his power in the Redhorn Pass, or that after his return he still used his grey rags to conceal his new strength and light. Glorfindel would have stood out -- shown or shined -- wherever he went, and little could have counteracted his nature.

Three final points: (1) An overriding strategy was to occupy the Enemy's gaze, and Elrond's and Glorfindel's staying in the North would have kept some part of Sauron's attention directed that way. He would have still viewed them as a threat and a focus of his Malice, even as Elrond knew their role and powers to be passive and no longer meant to project power in an aggressive sense. Consider Varya's attributes. Their only true contribution to the cause was Sauron's fear of them.

(2) Elrond may not have wanted himself or any of his people to be tested by prolonged exposure to the Ring. They were still at heart proud and powerful High Elves, who probably nurtured some some sense of how they thought things should be. Gandalf and Aragorn had already passed the test, and in fact, possessed simpler, purer types of nobility and strength, and they appreciated the world of Men. The others of the Nine walkers were generally less complicated and unaffected.

(3) More Elves would have meant fewer Hobbits, which of course, could serve as decoys, even sacrificial ones, but also could step in as substitute ringbearers, if necessary. Unexpectedly, they also played the role of non-intimidating emissaries among Ents and Men.

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation.

Is it just me, or are you a teacher. You really sound like one here.

Originally Posted by Mansun

If elf lords are to be seen as vulnerable due to their power which the enemy could perhaps detect more easily (though this is not proven), what then can be said of the presence of Gandalf in Mordor (as was the original plan), and the power of the Ring when Frodo entered Mordor? Sauron, for instance, did not detect the power of the Ring until Frodo put in on in Mount Doom. I am sure elves may wear cloaks to help conceal their power to a degree as with Gandalf, such as the cloaks of Loth Lorien.

But I'm sure Gandalf can (jokes aside) "cloak" his power.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Essentially off topic, but...perhaps someone should start a thread
on an above observation
====================
Boromir replaced with Faramir
====================

It's one of those questions which I've thought of
but not really pursued but is potentially interesting,
as is Aragorn's musing on who he would have had
accompany Frodo into Mordor. The latter scenario
would obviously have required JRRT giving an alternate
Gondor siege relief, but I believe Aragorn says he would
have taken Gimli and himself---interesting. Keep the quest
as small as possible, and a dwarf could carry Frodo
easily-given their strength and endurance.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Essentially off topic, but...perhaps someone should start a thread
on an above observation
====================
Boromir replaced with Faramir
====================

I think there already is one (or more)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

The Age of Men


An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

Man-of-the-Wold's comment deserves close thought, as he suggests something important about the larger picture. It is not that elves might be more powerful than men or that Gondor would have welcomed elves. It is that in the Legendarium, the elves have had their chance. They were weighed in the balance and found wanting and now are diminishing. The important aspect of the Third Age is how the focus shifts from the first born to the next born, men. Hence, Man-of-the-Wold's choice of title for his post. A fellowship comprised in the majority by men--and hobbits are men--even one that breaks-- provides for this shift. It is the chronological development of the coming of men that makes this fellowship rather than an elven fellowship meaningful. Furthermore, Elves would have made the alliance between Rohan and Gondor less significant and less strategic. The elves, after all, failed to destroy the Ring in the past. Why would they necessarily be more successful this time?

The recurrent theme that even the very small or weak have a part to play is also brought out by having the hobbits play a major role, as well as having other men--Boromir and Faramir--play out the Ring's powerful appeal. LotR is a story for a new age and not a rehash of some elven battle. And the presence of members of the older races, elves and dwarves, works to acheive some kind of rapproachment with the earlier ages, where friendship becomes at least as significant as their prowess in battle. Strangely enough, even with all its emphasis on war and battle and fighting and might, LotR, like The Battle of Maldon, makes psychology a crucial aspect of the struggle.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Excellent points, MotW, and very pertinent to the subject. As an additional perspective on Elrond, there have been lengthy discussions in the past here (and elsewhere) regarding elvish healers not participating in battle due to warriors' extravagant use of their hroa (body) at the expense of their fea (spirit) -- the fea of a healer being integral in the healing of others. Points have been made that Elrond eschewed battle after the Last Alliance of Elves and Men to devote himself totally to loremastery and became the greatest healer of the 3rd Age.

In addition, although Elrond would never have been a member of the Fellowship (anymore than Galadriel or Celeborn would), he gave permission for his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, to join Aragorn for the climactic battles of the War of the Ring. If you consider what Elrond stood to lose (the possible deaths of one or both of his sons in battle, and the irrevocable sundering of Arwen if Aragorn became king), then I believe it is safe to say that Elrond certainly 'paid his dues' as a father and leader in the War of the Ring.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It is that in the Legendarium, the elves have had their chance. They were weighed in the balance and found wanting and now are diminishing. The important aspect of the Third Age is how the focus shifts from the first born to the next born, men. Hence, Man-of-the-Wold's choice of title for his post. A fellowship comprised in the majority by men--and hobbits are men--even one that breaks-- provides for this shift. It is the chronological development of the coming of men that makes this fellowship rather than an elven fellowship meaningful. Furthermore, Elves would have made the alliance between Rohan and Gondor less significant and less strategic. The elves, after all, failed to destroy the Ring in the past. Why would they necessarily be more successful this time?

Originally Posted by Mansun

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

The Elves already had their part to play in the War of the Ring (the forces of Thranduil and Celeborn were in a desperate fight against Sauron's eastern legions), and I feel with a degree of certainty that the Noldorin enclave in Rivendell had diminished population-wise to the point where open battle was no longer an option, and sending an 'army' anywhere was not possible, as there were perhaps sufficient enough numbers to man (or elf) the walls of Imladris in case of a final, desperate siege, but that's about it.

The Noldorin Elves had been decimated over the previous two ages of continuous wars against Morgoth, then Sauron. Eregion was sacked and many there had been massacred, and then came the Last Alliance when Gil-Galad, the last Noldorin High King, and many of his retinue fell. In striking parallel to the Dunedain, the Noldor did not crown a king after Gil-Galad's fall (much like the Dunedain had only chieftains after Arvedui's death). The most logical reason is there were just not enough Noldor left to bother with such titles. Add to that the number of Noldor who were yearly departing for the Undying Lands, and there you have it: it is significant that Elrond was known as the Master of the Last Homely House, and not the High King of a vast army of Noldor, ready to march on an embattled Gondor after taking a side-trip to Helm's Deep to crush Saruman's forces.

In any event, as we can see in hindsight, sending a Fellowship of primarily Elves (or primarily Dunedain, for that matter) would have failed miserably. The Hobbits -- unobtrusive, loyal, and yes, simple -- were the key factor in the destruction of the Ring. Neither the otherwordly power of Glorfindel nor a valorous host of Noldor could have gotten into Mordor in the roundabout and surreptitious manner in which the Hobbits did, nor would there be much of a possibility of a high-born Noldor befriending a creature like Gollum, who proved to be the only guide capable of leading them through the marshes, through the Vale of Morgul and up into the passes of Cirith Ungol. The correct path was not one in which gleaming Elves hacked their way through thousands upon thousands of Orc to get to Mount Doom. It was better that Sauron's eye was forever glaring at Gondor, fixated in delusional malice. Really, it was all smoke and mirrors: a few accidents, several strokes of good luck, a bit of strategy and bunch of subterfuge, and Sauron, the arch-deceiver, was hornswoggled in the end.

Tolkien never refers to the path Gandalf planned on actually taking, and for good reason. It is likely that even he could not do what two Hobbits and a misshapen, addled Stoor managed. That is where Gandalf's prescience comes in. His foresight in allowing the four Hobbits to join the Fellowship was the linchpin of the group's success.

[radagastly]

I think that Elrond was looking at the bigger picture. Rivendell was "The Last Homely House," the last refuge of all the elves of Middle-Earth on their way into the West. Such a place must be well defended, at the very least. Certainly his own presence, with his Ring, was needed right where it was. That doesn't mean he would have been discovered, if he had gone with the Fellowship. Certainly, Gandalf was able to conceal his Ring throughout the story, and there is no reason to believe that Elrond and Galadriel could not do the same. In fact, Galadriel said as much:

'I know what it was that you last saw,' she said; 'for that is also in my mind. Do not be afraid! But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is the land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the Elves, shone clear above. So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.

'Yes,' she said, divininng his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.

'He suspects, but he does not know--not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you secceed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'

That should be enough to know that Sauron was looking for any sign or presence of any of the Three. For Elrond to venture forth with the Fellowship would have brought the Enemy down on them immediately:

'He suspects, but he does not know--not yet.

Obviously, Sauron was not stupid. He had figured out where the Three were most likely to be hiding. He simply could not 'detect' them the way he (or the Nazgul) could 'detect' the One. He simply wasn't sure. "Doubt ever gnaws him." as Gandalf put it.

In addition, while Lothlorien seemed to live in the Old Days (whatever that may mean,) Rivendell seemed to recall the best parts of them without imposing them on the visitors. (I forget where it is described as such, I think it's Sam talking, but if anyone can find it, I'd be grateful.) And, of course, the Ring of Fire, at the Havens, would rekindle their hearts for the voyage ahead. There were very few that knew that Cirdan had given his Ring to Gandalf. Possibly even Elrond and Galadriel did not know for sure.

To sum up, Lothlorien was the world of Eternity that the Elves lived their daily lives in, Rivendell was the transition towards the inevitable, mundane world of Men, and the Ring of Fire, (which should have been at the Havens with Cirdan) gave the Elves the final strength of will to venture across the Sea, to the Undying Lands. Most of them who were left had never been there. Not even Elrond himself. If Elrond had taken his Ring away from Rivendell, it might well have destroyed any chance his people had of escaping the evils of Middle-Earth and finding Peace in Valinor. Don't think for a second that he didn't know that. To take his Ring from Rivendell would have stopped the migration in its tracks.

As for possibly sending Glorfindel, I believe Elrond had strategic reasons for keeping him. If Sauron even suspected that one of the Three resided in Rivendell, he would have assailed it with all the forces he could muster and spare. Until the One was destroyed (or lost), keeping the Three a secret would have to be utmost in Elrond's mind. Therefore, at the very least, he would have to 'hold out' until all was lost, and probably fight an epic battle in his own house to do so. Having Glorfindel, the only character in the book besides Gandalf who ever killed a Balrog, would be a great benefit in such a fight.

Originally Posted by Mansun
This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

Unfortunately, by this time, Elrond was a virtual stranger in Gondor:

from The Council of Elrond:
Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.

This seems to be the only reference to Elrond from Gondor in the entire book. (If anyone can find any other, please let me know.) It is probably all that Denethor knew of him; his name. Add this to the fact that Minas Tirith was not their intended destination (except for Boromir and Aragorn) and it would have done little good for him to go, and a great deal of harm for him to leave. As for Elrond 'summoning' the Council:

from The Council of Elrond:
'That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.'

Denethor's knowledge of Elrond seems to be an invention of the Extended edition of the movies, understandable shorthand, but without basis in the source story. He was, at best, an obscure legend, perhaps even a myth, but nothing more. Just enough for Boromir to go north to seek him, though he left Gondor months before Frodo left Hobbiton. Even if Elrond had come to Minas Tirith, the Battle of the Pellannor Fields would have been lost before Denethor would have admitted him to his hall. He would have been a nobody.

Originally Posted by radagastly

This seems to be the only reference to Elrond from Gondor in the entire book. (If anyone can find any other, please let me know.) It is probably all that Denethor knew of him; his name. Add this to the fact that Minas Tirith was not their intended destination (except for Boromir and Aragorn) and it would have done little good for him to go, and a great deal of harm for him to leave.

Elrond was side by side with Isildur and Elendil during the Last Alliance's stand against Mordor 3,000 years before. For Denethor not to know enough lore to have heard an account of Elrond's doings during the second age against Sauron would be unthinkable. Elrond is every bit a legend as Elendil and Isildur in Middle Earth lore, and given that Denethor knows he is the wisest of all loremasters, ahead of Saruman even, he must have had other information bestowed about him, as one cannot just accept this view without a source of enormous credibility.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Elrond was side by side with Isildur and Elendil during the Last Alliance's stand against Mordor 3,000 years before. For Denethor not to know enough lore to have heard an account of Elrond's doings during the second age against Sauron would be unthinkable. Elrond is every bit a legend as Elendil and Isildur in Middle Earth lore, and given that Denethor knows he is the wisest of all loremasters, ahead of Saruman even, he must have had other information bestowed about him, as one cannot just accept this view without a source of enormous credibility.

Originally Posted by from The Council of Elrond:

Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.

It doesn't seem that Boromir had more than the vaguest clue about Elrond, and Denethor only perhaps a bit more (hence, a desperate but almost blind journey north for help). Remember, Denethor accused Faramir of being a 'wizard's pupil' and denigrated his son for studying the past. Denethor had his store of wisdom, but it was not deep. Being ensnared by Sauron when he used the Palantir (when none of the Stewards previous to him dared touch it) is proof positive that he lacked historical perspective.

Besides, based on the incontravertible evidence (representing several different views of the same point) presented by the last five posters (Eonwe, Radagastly, Man-of-the Wold, Bêthberry and myself), there was no chance of any army or Elrond himself leaving Rivendell; and, in any case, such a move would have failed.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Mansun:

Elrond was side by side with Isildur and Elendil during the Last Alliance's stand against Mordor 3,000 years before.

True enough, though I suspect any of his accomplishments were probably eclipsed in the books of lore in Minas Tirith by the presence of Gil-galad, for whom he was the herald. Especially since those books would have to have been written by Isildur:

From The Fellowship fo the Ring, The Council of Elrond:

"Alas! yes," said Elrond. "Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then int Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.

Isildur was the only man to witness the battle, and he had every reason to downplay the role of the any other Elves in whatever lore he may have written about it. He had just defied their advice to destroy the One Ring, which was already preying on his mind, based on the quote from his writing at that time spoken by Gandalf during the Council of Elrond:

and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain.

In that state, he would have tried his best to keep names like "Elrond" and "Cirdan" at a minimum in any of the histories that he wrote. Such names would lead to questions. Denethor would have very little lore to go on, even if he bothered to study. As Gandalf quoted him:

But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well know to me, who am master of the lore of this City.

Yet the very next paragraph reveals that there was a great deal of lore that Denethor had never read, including the document about the Ring.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Yet the very next paragraph reveals that there was a great deal of lore that Denethor had never read, including the document about the Ring.

Very true. Due to his lack of research, Denethor never truly grasped the grave implications of having the Ring. He coveted it greatly (and his covetousness, nutured by the dissembling visions of Sauron in the Palantir, drew him to the straits of desperation and madness), but he did not understand its all-consuming nature, something that Faramir comprehended quite readily, and Boromir only understood as he lay dying.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Originally posted by Mansun:

True enough, though I suspect any of his accomplishments were probably eclipsed in the books of lore in Minas Tirith by the presence of Gil-galad, for whom he was the herald. Especially since those books would have to have been written by Isildur:

It appears to me that this seems to imply along with the comments of other posters, that Denethor only sent Boromir to Rivendell for the Ring, and not to seek counsel from Elrond, of whom Denethor rated higher in wisdom even than Sauron himself.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Mansun:

It appears to me that this seems to imply along with the comments of other posters, that Denethor only sent Boromir to Rivendell for the Ring, and not to seek counsel from Elrond, of whom Denethor rated higher in wisdom even than Sauron himself.

I would agree this was the motive in the movie, especially the Extended Edition, but this quote from The Council of Elrond seems to imply otherwise (at least for the book):

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. "So that is what became of the Ring!" he cried. "If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed."

Boromir, at least, seems genuinely surprised that the Ring still even exists. Looking through The Return of the King doesn't seem to reveal any indication that Denethor knew any more about it than his elder son. Even the Palantir of Minas Tirith did not seem to find any news of it (and a good thing too, since Sauron would have probably then spotted it as well, and Frodo would probably never have reached Cirith Ungol, much less Orodruin.)

I suspect that Denethor did not send Boromir to Rivendell so much as relent and permit him to go:

Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay.

[MatthewM]

radagastly is right. Boromir pressed Denethor to even let him go on the errand. Boromir wanted the meaning of a riddle, not the Ring until he saw it.

[Gordis]

Boromir wanted "the Sword that was broken" - I guess he knew which one it was all right.
But even more he wanted "a token stronger than Morgul spells" whatever it might be.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Boromir .....
But even more he wanted "a token stronger than Morgul spells" whatever it might be.

What about Gandalf's staff? More deadly than any weapon . . .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mansun

What about Gandalf's staff? More deadly than any weapon . . .

Was it now?

Gandalf the Grey had been in Gondor many times, but there was hardly any help from him against the Morgul spells... ever. Had he been that powerful, he could have helped in reclaiming Ithilien -at least before Sauron's return to Mordor. And where was he when the nazgul took the Bridge of Osgiliath?

Boromir hoped for a super-weapon... and indeed "the token" in question was stronger than Morgul spells... only it was even more evil.

[mark12_30]

Gandalf discussed this, didn't he? I mean, Frodo's cousins' usefulness in the end. Wasn't he talking to Aragorn (if I remember correctly) when he said that Pippin's foolishness in looking into the palantir provided Sauron with the idea that Pippin was the Ringbearer, captured, and in Saruman's custody; and that therefore whoever "made" Pippin look into the Palantir, now had the Ring? And if it wasn't Saruman, then it must have been Aragorn?

Isn't that why Sauron took Aragorn so seriously when Aragron himself looked into the Palantir?

Pippin was as 'useful' as a Ringbearer Decoy as Elrond would have been in diplomacy. Elrond could not have talked Sauron into believing that Arqagon had the Ring, and so, taking Aragorn seriously for the rest of the war.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Gandalf discussed this, didn't he? I mean, Frodo's cousins' usefulness in the end. Wasn't he talking to Aragorn (if I remember correctly) when he said that Pippin's foolishness in looking into the palantir provided Sauron with the idea that Pippin was the Ringbearer, captured, and in Saruman's custody; and that therefore whoever "made" Pippin look into the Palantir, now had the Ring? And if it wasn't Saruman, then it must have been Aragorn?

There is no question that even Pippin proved useful in the end - yes, looking into the Palantir, rousing the Ents and saving Faramir and Merry.

But were Gandalf and Elrond back around the time of the Council able to foresee such details - exactly what would happen? I don't think so. I believe Gandalf only had a vague feeling that Pippin and Merry would be useful on the Quest, as he supposed the same all along about Gollum.

However, apart from that, Elrond and Gandalf had to have some plan for the Quest. I think the splitting of the company was planned from the start: Boromir was going to Minas Tirith and Aragorn planned to go with him. What about the hobbits? I think all of them were supposed to go to Mordor, led by Gollum whose involvement was foreseen by Gandalf. Gollum was the only one who knew the way to Mordor after all.
All the big people go to Minas Tirith, all the stealthy and Ring-resistant hobbits to Mordor, that was the idea. Four hobbits could defend the Ring far better against Gollum's attempts to take it. This way there would have been three hobbits, not one, to take over the Quest if Frodo failed.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Actually, I believe Aragorn says somewhere
that he planned to go with Frodo to Mordor
(and with at least Gimli and Sam?).

And wasn't the vague earlier plan to have Merry and Pippin
go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, not sure about Legolas.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

To put in my two cents: I think it was not without reason that Elrond said:

"This is my last word... The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road."

Which, as we all know, turned out to be prophetic. I suspect that Elrond foresaw if not precise events of the future, at least the probability that some members of the Company were fated to perform other deeds that would contribute greatly to their cause, even though they could not have imagined doing them at the outset. Gimli certainly had a notion in his head that he would stick by Frodo to the end, since his reply to Elrond was:

"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens," said Gimli.

"Maybe," said Elrond, "but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall."

"Yet sworn heart may strengthen quaking heart," said Gimli.

"Or break it," said Elrond. "Look not too far ahead!"

Boromir always intended to return to Minas Tirith, as was his duty (and no doubt he had notions of taking the Ring with him, either by persuading Frodo that this was the better way, or by seizing it); not even Gandalf appears to have made plans for the entire quest, other than that somehow, they would find a way to get the Ring into the Fire:

"We have not decided our course," said Aragorn [to Celeborn]. "Beyond Lothlorien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose."

I have long suspected that this is because Gandalf knew that the closer they came to Mordor itself, the greater a danger his presence became to the Ringbearer. I think he would have gone with Frodo had there been no other choice, but he recognized that it would be a terrible risk. Before leaving Lothlorien, the Company was actually leaning in favor of going with Boromir to Minas Tirith,"to escape for at least a while from the terror of the enemy"; Aragorn had not originally intended to go to Mordor:

His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir.

I also have long felt that the reason Gandalf had not made clear plans beyond Lothlorien was because he knew that his own great purpose in the quest lay in getting the company to that point, a point which he himself might not reach. I have often thought it strange that there was no apparent record of the nature of the evil that first drove the Dwarves from Khazad-dum, but it is clear that not even the Dwarves were aware that a Balrog was "Durin's Bane," nor were Galadriel and Celeborn. But if, as Celeborn said when the Company first arrived in Lothlorien, the Dwarves had "stirred up this evil in Moria" -- implying that it was not Pippin's stone that had first roused the Balrog, but probably the Dwarves of Balin's attempted colony -- it was almost inevitable that someone would have to deal with it. If a dragon in Erebor would have been a dangerous ally for Sauron to use in his war, how much worse would a Balrog have been? As the war progressed, there was no guarantee that it would remain confined to Moria; indeed, since the orcs there were apparently aware of its presence, it's possible that Sauron already knew of it, and was waiting to use it when he opened his war and attacked Lothlorien. Once its presence was known and it was awake enough to pursue the Company, someone had to take it out. That was imperative. I believe Gandalf had a presentiment of this, in some vague fashion, since he says, "A Balrog. Now I understand." The immediate interpretation is that he understands what power had been on the other side of the door when he was forced to speak a word of Command, but I suspect the understanding runs deeper:

"But Gandalf chose to come himself, and he was the first to be lost," answered Gimli. "His foresight failed him."

"The counsel of Gandalf was not founded on foreknowledge of safety, for himself or others," said Aragorn. "There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."

Between this and Aragorn's warning to Gandalf not to enter Moria, I think that the two had discussed the possibility that Gandalf knew he might meet his end there, if not how or why. But even facing that possibility, Gandalf evidently thought some greater good would achieved by it, and he was right. Even if Pippin's foolishly dropped stone did not actually awaken the Balrog, it alerted their enemies in Moria to their presence, and ultimately did not allow them to sneak through, unnoticed -- leaving behind a live and dangerous Balrog. It pushed Gandalf to this dark destiny, which ultimately proved to be a great benefit to their cause.

As for the wizards' staffs having some power, I don't believe we're ever really given any solid proof that they serve as anything but a channel for the wizards' own power. Breaking or obtaining the staff of another wizard would, I think, at most deprive them of a useful tool, at the least be a merely symbolic gesture. If it had innate power, I suspect we would've heard Gandalf warning Pippin not to EVER touch his staff.

Guess that was more like a dime's worth.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Even if Pippin's foolishly dropped stone did not actually awaken the Balrog, it alerted their enemies in Moria to their presence, and ultimately did not allow them to sneak through, unnoticed -- leaving behind a live and dangerous Balrog.

I never believed that Pippin's stone was the reason for this. There is a possibility that Gollum had kept enemies alert in Moria after skulking around in habited areas. Also, what is there to say that a Moria scout had not spotted the Company? Balin's attempt to retake Moria had awoken the armies of Moria, and going through unseen and unchallenged after that would be almost impossible.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

I don't need to read another thread, thanks.

The wizard's staff was symbolic of their order (as when Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff -- a token of Gandalf attaining white status), and used as a means of channeling their inherent power. There is no direct quotes to show that the staff had any innate power in and of itself (as a matter of fact, Gandalf would have most likely lost his original staff in his fall in Moria); hence, Gandalf is seen most often swinging around Glamdring. This is in line with Ibrin's opinion:

As for the wizards' staffs having some power, I don't believe we're ever really given any solid proof that they serve as anything but a channel for the wizards' own power. Breaking or obtaining the staff of another wizard would, I think, at most deprive them of a useful tool, at the least be a merely symbolic gesture. If it had innate power, I suspect we would've heard Gandalf warning Pippin not to EVER touch his staff.

[Gordis]

I like your post, Ibrîn! Good work.

You proved that Aragorn was not intending to go to Mordor initially, neither was Boromir.
Gimli indeed seemed set to stick to Frodo and the Ring - but that doesn't mean that Gandalf and Elrond were of the like mind. Dwarves were not reknown for stealth, but they had a bad reputation for their greed when it comes to jewelry. I don't think Gimli would have been trusted to accompany the hobbits to Mordor without other Big People to keep him in line.

Gandalf indeed seemed to foresee his own end and thus made no plans beyond going to Lorien.

And I wholly agree with Morthoron and Ibrin about wizards staffs.

[Alfirin]

I would actually disagree on the issue of wizards staffs being merely conduits of the wizards power; and nothing more. I think that a wizards staff probably does have a power beyond the wizard holding it, either inherent in itself or residual for the wizard's use of it; that if you throw enough magic at an object (or in this case run enough through it) eventually some of it begins to "stick" and stay in the object (a bit like Terry Prachetts minor character of Unlucky Charlie, the poor scarecrow whose been cursed so often as part of the witch trials that he now has developed what borders on a life of his own (see the ettique secion of Nanny Ogg's Cookbook for futher information). If a wizards staff had no power in and of itself, then Gandalf's destuction of Saruman's would have been meaningless; saruman could have simply grabbed another stick of wood (Orthanc proably had a good pile of sticks to be used as firewood) or at least cut a new one (or had Grima cut him a new one) once he was let out (he proably wouldn't want to do so in Fangorn itslef (given how Ents react when you damage trees) but I'm sure there were other trees along the route he could have cut a new staff from. Moreover if the staffs had no power out of the wizards hands then way would aquiring all of them (i.e. "the rods of the five wizards) be a desirable goal?) I'm not saying that anyone who took a wizard's staff would be able to use magic, but the staff is probably, in a certain sense a part of the wizard and a wizard whose staff was destroyed or lost would find it diffcult, if not impossible to replace.
Speaking of replacing staffs I do agree that the staff gandalf carried into Moria was proably lost or destroyed in his battle with the Balrog. Indeed the penultimate line of Bilbo's tribute poem does say "his staff was broken on the stone" (though this may of course be only hobbit poetic imagery) when Gandalf was given his new life and his new flesh he presuably was given a new staff, more powerful than his old, as he now was.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I would actually disagree on the issue of wizards staffs being merely conduits of the wizards power; and nothing more. I think that a wizards staff probably does have a power beyond the wizard holding it, either inherent in itself or residual for the wizard's use of it; that if you throw enough magic at an object (or in this case run enough through it) eventually some of it begins to "stick" and stay in the object (a bit like Terry Prachetts minor character of Unlucky Charlie, the poor scarecrow whose been cursed so often as part of the witch trials that he now has developed what borders on a life of his own (see the ettique secion of Nanny Ogg's Cookbook for futher information). If a wizards staff had no power in and of itself, then Gandalf's destuction of Saruman's would have been meaningless; saruman could have simply grabbed another stick of wood (Orthanc proably had a good pile of sticks to be used as firewood) or at least cut a new one (or had Grima cut him a new one) once he was let out (he proably wouldn't want to do so in Fangorn itslef (given how Ents react when you damage trees) but I'm sure there were other trees along the route he could have cut a new staff from. Moreover if the staffs had no power out of the wizards hands then way would aquiring all of them (i.e. "the rods of the five wizards) be a desirable goal?) I'm not saying that anyone who took a wizard's staff would be able to use magic, but the staff is probably, in a certain sense a part of the wizard and a wizard whose staff was destroyed or lost would find it diffcult, if not impossible to replace.
Speaking of replacing staffs I do agree that the staff gandalf carried into Moria was proably lost or destroyed in his battle with the Balrog. Indeed the penultimate line of Bilbo's tribute poem does say "his staff was broken on the stone" (though this may of course be only hobbit poetic imagery) when Gandalf was given his new life and his new flesh he presuably was given a new staff, more powerful than his old, as he now was.

I would dread to think that Gandalf would be a useless old man without his staff though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I would actually disagree on the issue of wizards staffs being merely conduits of the wizards power; and nothing more. I think that a wizards staff probably does have a power beyond the wizard holding it, either inherent in itself or residual for the wizard's use of it; that if you throw enough magic at an object (or in this case run enough through it) eventually some of it begins to "stick" and stay in the object....

saruman could have simply grabbed another stick of wood (Orthanc proably had a good pile of sticks to be used as firewood) or at least cut a new one (or had Grima cut him a new one) once he was let out (he proably wouldn't want to do so in Fangorn itslef (given how Ents react when you damage trees) but I'm sure there were other trees along the route he could have cut a new staff from. Moreover if the staffs had no power out of the wizards hands then way would aquiring all of them (i.e. "the rods of the five wizards) be a desirable goal?) I'm not saying that anyone who took a wizard's staff would be able to use magic, but the staff is probably, in a certain sense a part of the wizard and a wizard whose staff was destroyed or lost would find it diffcult, if not impossible to replace.

Speaking of replacing staffs I do agree that the staff gandalf carried into Moria was proably lost or destroyed in his battle with the Balrog. Indeed the penultimate line of Bilbo's tribute poem does say "his staff was broken on the stone" (though this may of course be only hobbit poetic imagery) when Gandalf was given his new life and his new flesh he presuably was given a new staff, more powerful than his old, as he now was.

The complete sentence Saruman says is important to put his meaning in context:

"Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now."

The key, the crowns and the rods are symbols of power, not a power in and of themselves. They represent dominion in one form or another. To have the key to Barad-dur means you have defeated Sauron and command his tower, to have the crowns of seven kings means you control each kingdom, and to have the five rods indicates you are the head of the order of Istari (as Saruman was). Saruman was saying Gandalf had gotten too big for his britches (if wizards actually had britches). When Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff, he was in essence stripping him of his station, as one would taking the crown off of a king.

As far as innate power residing in the staffs, that can only be conjecture, as no where is it stated the staffs held residual power (that I can recall anyway). Consider, if you will, that Gandalf defeated the Balrog after he broke his staff on the bridge in Moria (the broken staff is mentioned in the text). So, the most momentous battle Gandalf encountered was with a sword, not a staff.

Could the staff concentrate a wizard's power more readily, and thus be useful in directing a wizard's inherent Maiaric essence? That's a different discussion altogether. We know that Gandalf cast light in the darkness of Moria using the staff, but then again he threw burning pinecones down on the wargs and the staff was not used (he wasn't batting pinecones at the wargs). Perhaps, like a divining rod, it focused power and acted as an extension of the wizard. We unfortuantely do not know where Gandalf's 'white' staff was carved, but since his white robes came from Galadriel in Lorien, then it's logical it came from her (made of mallorn?).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The only strong indication we have that the staff is a very useful implement for the Istari is Gandalf's insistence on keeping it when he goes to the Golden Hall in Edoras -- and yet, he doesn't really use it, not even as a conduit for light as he did before his death; indeed, the light seems to come more from him than his staff:

He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.

And as the story progresses, we see less and less of the staff. Contrary to what was shown in the movies, in the rescue of Faramir, the light that drives off the Nazgul comes from Gandalf's hand, not his staff. When he confronts Denethor in the Tombs, "his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place," and he merely lifts up his hand to send Denethor's sword flying; he doesn't even appear to have his staff with him. When confronting the Mouth of Sauron, "He cast aside his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place." Less and less do we hear of him using his staff as even a conduit for power. If the staff is indeed an implement for directing a wizard's power, then it could well be that Gandalf the Grey's staff shattered when he broke the bridge because of the amount of power he had to direct to achieve his aim -- rather like power lines that get burned and slagged when too much energy surges through them. Gandalf the White may be employing power that would burn mere wood to cinders.

On the way home, when the company encounters Saruman in the wild, he is described as leaning on a staff, but this would appear to be no more than a stick, because he is never seen using it as anything more than a prop. If there is indeed a unique usefulness to the wizards' staffs as a conduit for their power as Maiar, it may be because they bear the blessing of the Valar, who sent them as their messengers. Without such a blessing, Saruman couldn't simply make another for himself, just as he could not imitate the forging of a ring of power without giving up a part of his own native strength, already limited by his incarnation in a real body. It may also explain why Gandalf never uses his second staff in the same way as he used his first. Speculation, of course, but not unreasonable, I think.

And this seems to be wandering away from the original topic...