What about Aragorn and the Numenoreans?

[Imladris]

I have just a couple of quick questions.

1. Who are the Numenoreans? What happened to them? How do they affect the history of ME?

2. This may be a stupid question, but why did the Stewards become "king" of Gondor? Why didn't Isiludur's son (I am assuming he had a son since Aragorn is his descendant) become the King?

3. Who are the Men of the West and South?

Oh, and another thing, what do the icons mean? I looked at the FAQ, but it wasn't very helpful...

[Gorthol]

The númenoreans are the descendents from Elros and the fathers of men, Atani. They were given the land of Númenorë (Andor) for their efforts in the war against Morgoth during the first age.

Some of them assailed Aman to wrest everlasting life out of the hands of Valar, but failed miserably and they were trapped under falling rock and there they shall lie until the end of times and the last battle, Dagor Dagorath.

A small part of the númenoreans was still faithful to the Valar however, and those were washed up on the shores of Middle-earth, and there founded the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. Elendil was their king and his sons were Isildur and Anárion.

Aragorn is probably the most important "link" to the númenoreans, other things related are the "seeing stones", Palantíri, Tower of Orthanc, Elrond, etc..

The stewards didn't become kings of Gondor, they ruled in their place in wait for the return of the king. Eärnur was the last ruling king, but he perished, alas! Decieved by the Morgul King. He had no heir. So Gondor was ruled by stewards, until the return of Aragorn. The northern kingdom had come to an end with the death of Arvedui in 1975.

"Men of the West" are the Dunédain, men of Númenor, of whom Aragorn belonged too. And especially their descendants in Arnor and Gondor. The Men of the South, are the Men of Harad. Southrons.

[Finwe]

1. Who are the Numenoreans? What happened to them? How do they affect the history of ME?

The Numenoreans were the descendants of the Men of the First Age, who lived on this big island called Numenor, between Aman and Middle-earth. They generally were a lot better off than the rest of Men in Middle-earth, since they were very tall and had very long lifespans (although they weren't immortal).

Their kings were descended from Elros Tar-Minyatur, who was the brother of Elrond. They became renowned mariners and explorers of the seas. The only problem was that the Valar told them that if they wanted to sail west, they could only sail with the island of Numenor in sight. They couldn't go any farther. Now, the Valar had a good reason for doing this, which I will get to later.

Meanwhile, in Middle-earth, Sauron was growing in strength. He made his headquarters in Mordor, and started oppressing people. Back in Numenor, the Men were suddenly not very happy. They started getting jealous of the Elves, who, up til now, served as their mentors, teaching them nice, philosophical kingly stuff. They wanted to be immortal just like the Elves, and some got the fool notion that if they sailed West to Aman, they would become immortal as well. They forgot that it was the people that made the land, not the other way around. It was a coincidence that all the people who lived in Aman were immortal.

After a while, the Kings of Numenor started hating the Elves. They completely banned all Elvish things, the Elvish languages, and all traffic with the Elves. Now, a few Elf-friends, or Elendili, remained. These were the people who were still friends with the Elves, and their "headquarters" on Numenor was the city of Andunië, on the west coast. The Kings kept hating and hating the Elves.

The second-to-last King of Numenor, Tar-Palantir actually repented of his ancestors' pride and folly, and tried to reconcile Numenor back with Aman, but it didn't work. Too many people already resented the Elves. After his death, his nephew, Ar-Pharazon (or Tar-Calion the Golden) married his cousin Ar-Zimraphel (or Tar-Miriel, the daughter of Tar-Palantir) and took the throne of Numenor. Now this one was the craziest of them all.

Ar-Pharazon heard that Sauron was starting to call himself Lord of Middle-earth, and got very ****ed off. So, he assembled a huge navy, and sailed to Middle-earth. Now this army was so huge and strong, that all of Sauron's servants high-tailed it out of there, leaving the Big S. all by himself. Sauron realized that he wouldn't be able to defeat the Numenoreans (whom he hated for being so strong and great) by force, so he decided to do it by guile.

When Ar-Pharazon landed, Sauron went to him, and sucked up a lot. So in the end, instead of killing him, Ar-Pharazon brought Sauron back to Numenor as a prisoner. Then, as expected, Sauron squirmed his way into all of Ar-Pharazon's counsels, and told him that Morgoth would give him everything he wanted, if he marched on Aman. Ar-Pharazon, who by this time was getting old, decided to march on Aman. He gathered a HUGE navy, and set out.

Meanwhile, the Elf-friends were completely freaking out. Their leader was Elendil, and his sons were Isildur and Anarion. They all knew that something catastrophic would happen, and kept a bunch of ships ready, with all their possessions on board. When Ar-Pharazon landed in Aman, all of his army was cast down and they sleep beneath the hills of Aman, waiting for the Last Battle. The Valar also asked Eru to intercede, and Numenor was also destroyed.

When Elendil and his followers saw the first signs of destruction, they boarded their ships, and set sail towards Middle-earth. They landed there, and founded the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. The descendant of Isildur was Aragorn.

2. This may be a stupid question, but why did the Stewards become "king" of Gondor? Why didn't Isiludur's son (I am assuming he had a son since Aragorn is his descendant) become the King?

The Stewards of Gondor became king, because the last King of Gondor, Earnur, rode off to meet the challenge of the Witch-king at Minas Morgul. He never came back, so everyone assumed that he was dead. His steward, Mardil, took up the throne in his stead, keeping it in the name of the King. After him, his son took up the office, of the Ruling Steward, and that is how the office passed on all the way to Denethor II.

3. Who are the Men of the West and South?

The Men of the West are the Rangers, Aragorn's "family." They are the remnants of the kingdom of Arnor, that was destroyed by the Witch-King of Angmar and his army. The Men of the South are the Haradrim (whom Tolkien intended to resemble Africans). They serve Sauron, and are fierce enemies of the Free Peoples.

[Imladris]

Thank you so much you guys. You have cleared up a lot of confusion.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Imladris, you can find the answer (or at least as close to an answer as you'll get! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )to your last question here: Icons.

[Imladris]

Thank you so much,Estelyn!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The link was very helpful. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Imladris

[Sillabub]

First of all, let's make it clear that Numenor no longer exists. Numenor (also known as Atlante) was once home to a race of proud, strong men. However, these men became greedy and corrupt, wanting gold and jewels and the ability to go to the gray havens. This grew to the point that pirates of a kind began to roam the shores of middle-earth, capturing and looting other ships. It was on a raiding expedition that Sauron was captured and the foolish king of Numenor decided to take him back as a prisoner, to show off his strenght etc etc etc. Unfortunately, sauron eventually corrupted the king and a shadow began to fall over numenor. The king at some point around then decided that numenoreans should be able to pass on to the gray havens, and sailed off to the gray havens. Sadly, when he put just one foot down onto the soil of the gray havens, Numenor was swallowed by the ocean and sank. Elendil was able to safely sail away with 7 seeing stones (palantiri I presume) and a bunch of other numenoreans. Upon landing at middle earth they created the realms in exile: Arnor, Gondor and (i think) Eriador. Their story is another issue.

Due to the fact that numenor has not existed for at least an age, one would assume that Aragorn is not in fact a Numenorean, but a descendant of the Numenoreans in exile. Plus, if he really was a numenorean how could he be an heir to the throne of Gondor? And how could he live in Numenor if he wasn't a fish?

And anyhow, on the topic of aragorn and Gondor, I have some info. to point out:
-Aragorn is Arwen's cousin
-He is a descendant of Elrond's brother Elros
-Minas ithil, which was once part of gondor, was taken by mordor and renamed Minas Morgul
-It is extremely unlikely that a human heir to the gondorian throne in any manner whatsoever is not related to elrond and arwen and foremost Aragorn
-Aragorn is around 41 when the fellowship sets out
-Rohan was once part of Gondor....
Alright, I'll stop now. If I get started on Gondor It'll be really hard to get me to stop! So there you have it. A VERY ROUGH history of the destruction of Numenor and some info about Aragorn. And no I am NOT obsessed with Aragorn, I've been doing ALOT of studying about Gondor and they mention Aragorn alot in any of the really useful stuff I found. I am also NOT obsessed with Merry and I swear I was NOT staring at him! I was staring at someone else...heh heh nevermind.

[Sillabub]

Hee hee...good job on describing the history of Numenor Finwe! I didn't read any of the topic beforehand so I didn't know...

[Finwe]

Sillabub dear, Aragorn was most definitely NOT 41 when the Fellowship set out. He was about 88/89 when the Fellowship set out.

And Sauron wasn't captured on a Numenorean raiding expedition, and they didn't become pirates. Ar-Pharazon found out that Sauron was calling himself Lord of Middle-earth, and decided to get rid of this "upstart" once and for all. He took a huge navy to Middle-earth, landed at the harbors near Umbar, and set out to kill Sauron. When they saw the Numenoreans coming, all of Sauron's minions fled, leaving the Big S. by himself. That was when he decided that guile would work best, and was made a hostage.

The Numenoreans did become greedy, but they never became pirates. They didn't raid homesteads on the coast looking for gold and riches. They had plenty of that back home. What they wanted was immortality, not riches.

[Sillabub]

2.(or was it three? I forget sorta. it was the one about isildur) See, the stewards became King because the king was sorta dead at the time. By the descendant of Isildur, it could mean aragorn was a VERY distant relation someone just decided would become the heir for some reason. Heck, he could be his 11th cousin or something. I personally preferred the stewards for some reason. Perhaps it's because boromir's one of my favourite characters.

And anyhow, going on to some other stuff. The men of the south are the wild men who have all those oilophants. I assume they are the same wild men as the men who captured Umbar from the Gondorians sometime during the second or third age (sniff...poor gondorians!). The wild men are in league with sauron and saruman etc. and don't have much (if any) relation to the Numenoreans, either the exiles or the original people. The wild men are said to also inhabit Dunland, which does not come from the word 'dun' which means west in sindar. The word 'dunedain' has no relation in meaning or anything to Dunland, it simply means 'man of the west'

So anyhow, about the men of the west. Remember the afformentioned Numenor (or Atlante)? It was in the west. Coincidentally Gondor is also in the west (NO! you don't say!) and therefore 'man of the west' could be reffering to a man of Numenorean descent or a man of Gondor or just any man in particular (not counting the wild men!).

And there you have it. Sorry if I explained it after somone else, I just love talking about this stuff!

[Sillabub]

oh yeah. Sorry finwe. That was Boromir. Oops...

88?!?!HE'S OLD!!!!

[Sillabub]

heh heh. I keep on getting that stuff mixed up. sorry! I haven't fully read the silmarillion yet, so I've been relying ton the annals of arda and such for my info.

[Finwe]

Yes, I know, Aragorn's old. But we must remember that he is a descendant of the Numenoreans, and even the lifespans of the Dunedain of Middle-earth decreased, they were still a LOT longer than "regular" Men. Aragorn was also long-lived, even compared to his kin. He lived until he was 210, then willingly gave up his life. He could have probably lasted a while longer, although he would have gone senile.

[Mahal]

no i think he couldnt have lasted for very long in the UT it says that Numenoreans could become senile and weak in ten years.So im assuming this also holds true for Aragorn.The dunedain of the north also lived longer then the ones of the south because they mingled(is this the right word???) with the "lesser" men.

[Sillabub]

Hee hee aragorn senile! That is just such a funny picture! *ahem* no offence to anyone who likes aragorn.

[Imladris]

I must say I was rather surprised when I saw that my first topic all of a sudden had 14 (?) replies. Hehe. (And no, Aragorn is not my favortie character).

So if the Men of the South, to put it bluntly, are "bad guys" while the Men of the West (Gondor) are "good guys," did the movie Fellowship of the Ring Extended Edition get it wrong when Aragorn told Boromir that the Men of the South are welcome here?

So Aragorn may not be Isildur's great great grandson or whatever, right? Is that why his family never became king?

Gondor is the most confusing thing I've ever read...

Thanks for the extra info! It's always nice to get explained in different words etc...even though the folks who first responded did a great job anyway! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Anardil]

Boromir comes from Minas Tirith in Gondor. Rivendell lies far to the North of Gondor, while Harad (where the "bad guys" live) lies to the South of Gondor. When Aragorn tells Boromir that the "men of the South" are welcome, he means "men of Gondor" since Gondor lies to the South of Rivendell (just not as far as Harad).

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The South generally means either Harad, or more often, the South-Kingdom of the Numenoreans -- Gondor. Consider the context and you'll be able to tell which is which.

Aragorn was the heir of Isildur. His family did not become king of Gondor because the claim of Arvedui -- the last king of Arnor -- to the right of kingship over both North and South-kingdoms was denied. The line of the kings in Gondor had been slightly broken. Instead the crown was given over to Earnur, a relative of the king. Thus, Arvedui's missed out on gaining the High-kingship that Aragorn later attained in his place. Arnor was destroyed in Arvedui's reign, so when the line of Anarien finally came to an end in Gondor a few years later, it was too late to give power to a king of Arnor.
However, the son of Arvedui survived in Lindon. The remnant of the Dunedain of the North became the Rangers, and the heir of Arvedui -- who was the only direct heir of Isildur, and the heir of Elendil as well -- became their chieftans. The line was carried unbroken until the birth of Aragorn, who it was seen was destined to rise up and take the kingship again, or else there was no hope in the revival and succour of the still strong but flagging Dunedain, Gondor and Arnor.

It is quite possible that the Stewards guessed at the existence of a Northern heir of Elendil, and yet did not feel it appropiate to yield the kingship to him. It would really have been impossible, I think. The Stewards did a good job anyway, and the Chieftans were kept, waiting, in the North. They played an important role as well. At least, Denethor seemed to be in knowledge of Aragorn's existence:

And you would supplant me with... a wandering vagabond of the ragged house of Isildur?

If it was known that the house of Isildur was 'ragged', then it is likely that secret suspicion of it's existence was also harboured by the Stewards. Another quote:

Some said that he [Denethor] may have guessed Thorongil's identity in truth...

He would have kept it to himself though.

Although it is true that little knowledge of the currect state of Eriador lay in the knowledge of Gondor, as is shown by Boromire's ignorance of 'Imladris'.

[Imladris]

Thank you so much for the very clear explanations. Is this all explained in the Silmarillion (hope it's spelled right...too lazy to look)? I really want to read, except I have so many othering things to read that are required...sigh.

Imladris

[Afrodal Fenyar]

You should always read the books first, as they clear a lot of questions. If you ask something in the Downs, you're going to get MANY spoilers. I assume that you haven't read even LotR yet, or at least the appendixes, since you need to ask these. If you just didn't understand something but have read the books, it's ok, of course. But I would suggest reading first, and asking then.

[Imladris]

Ahem.

I assume that you haven't read even LotR yet, or at least the appendixes,

Actually, I have read LOTR about five or six times in the last two years or so. As for the Appendices, I have skimmed through them, mainly skipping things about Rohan kings ('cuz I don't care anything about them), anything about the Numenoreans because I didn't know who they were, etc. The only reason I asked this question is because I am reading The Fellowship of the Ring to my aunt currently and she is a LOTR fan. The only problem is that she is an LOTR fan because she watched the movie...I doubt she ever heard of the trilogy (or if she did she wasn't interested in them) until we insisted that she watch the movie FOTR. However, she wants to know who the Numenoreans are and who the men of the west and south are. So she is basing the info from the movie and trying to make it fit with the books. Also, the Numenoreans are mentioned in the books when they aren't in the movie. I have read enough Tolkien literature (such as the Bestiary) to have a vague idea about who the Numenoreans were, not enough to answer her questions though. I can't just read and find the answers in the Silmarillion in a week because I am busy with school, required reading, etc. I don't have all the time in the world. I came here to have a couple of quick questions asked.

Trust me, I plan on reading the Silmarillion when I have time.

[Imladris]

Besides, I don't care about spoilers.

I am sorry that I needed to ask these questions.

Imladris

[Sillabub]

It's alright by me. I ask an over-amount of dumb questions on this site anyhow, so other people doing that seems alright by me. Plus I just loooooove to babble on about Gondor. Any other gondor fans out there?

[Imladris]

It's alright by me. I ask an over-amount of dumb questions on this site anyhow, so other people doing that seems alright by me. Plus I just loooooove to babble on about Gondor. Any other gondor fans out there?

Hey, I'm glad that I'm not the only one out there who asks really dumb questions. I like the way you think...no, I'm not a Gondor fan -- just an unoriginal elf fan. Thanks again for all your help you guys.

Imladris

[Finwe]

You should try to read the parts about the Kings of Rohan because there is a lot of Gondorian history in there too.

Since the House of Isildur was referred to as "ragged" I think that one of the main reasons that Denethor and Boromir were so bitter about the Dunedain of the North was that Denethor knew that Aragorn would one day "supplant" him and the reign of the Ruling Stewards would come to an end. He probably passed on that knowledge to Boromir, his favorite son. The way that they show the Boromir/Aragorn rivalry in the movies is an excellent example. Boromir first meets Aragorn in Rivendell, and thinks he is just another Dunadan. But, once he finds out that the Shards of Narsil are still sharp, he puts two and two together, and realizes that the "nice Ranger" he was talking to was the "upstart King of a ragged house" who would supplant him and his father. It accounted for a lot of the bitterness.

[Kaiserin]

no i think [Aragorn]couldnt have lasted for very long in the UT it says that Numenoreans could become senile and weak in ten years.

Actually, Aragorn didlive to over 200 years old. As stated by Finwe, the Dunedain are not like ordinary men. Actually, if you checked out the Appendix in RotK and did a little math, you'd find that out too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
(It would also probably come as a surprise to you that Arwen Undomiel is over 800 years old [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

[Finwe]

Numenoreans had the gift of dying when they wished. When they felt the onsetting of old age, and knew that in a few years they would become senile, that was when they gave up their lives, calmly. When the Darkness overcame Numenor, Men began to cling to life, and senility overcame them quickly. From the time of the first onset of old age, and complete senility, was a period of about ten years. The usual thing for a Numenorean was to give up his life with the first onset of old age.

[Imladris]

Interesting info. Yes, I know that I need to read the appendixes and I plan on reading them to my aunt since she keeps on asking the most awful questions that I can't answer. It would have been nice to have been a Numenorean, being able to end your life before you become senile.

So much to read...so little time.

Thanks alot.

Imladris.

[Finwe]

I would agree. The gift of being able to take your own life whenever you want would really get rid of some of the crazy people in our world and all these nursing home problems.