The Undead of Middle-earth

[Nazgûl-king]

Middle-earth has quite a few undead beings, Nazgûl, Barrow-wights, the Dead Men of Dunharrow and their king from the paths of the dead, and the dead figures in the Dead Marshes. What differences and similarities do you think there are between the various undead of Middle-earth? I though this would make an interesting topic.

[The Might]

I guess the biggest similiraty is that they all exist in the Wraith-world.
Also, there seems to be a certain hierarchy of these entities, as the Wk was capable of simply stirring up the spirits of the Barrow-downs as if he could command them.
Guess that that might have also had something to do with some lessons from Sauron, he was after all known as the Necromancer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

One big difference is their origin, what they were and why they were in Middle-Earth. The Nazgul and Dead Men of Dunharrow were originally living Men. The Barrow-Wights were some sort of "spirits from Rhudaur and Angmar" (The Appendices to LotR) who entered the empty mounds (though no one says they could not have been spirits of evil Men from there - recently there was some debate about this and someone mentioned that in HoME there was a variant of Sauron trapping spirits of some, but I believe these were Elves, and forcing them to do his bidding - therefore the "Necromancer" nickname). Also, the Dead Men were undead because they did not fulfil their oath; as a result of curse. The Nazgul were undead because of their "fading" after wearing the Nine Rings. The Barrow-Wights... well, who knows. If they were originally just "spirits", then they might have inhabited the wraith-world from the very beginning and therefore, calling them "undead" won't be as "politically correct". Though there is the possibility that a Barrow-Wight, in fact = some empty shell of a skeleton + some sort of a said spirit to give it a "life". So Barrow-Wight as a whole could be called "undead", while the original spirit may be not. But that's just guessing.

[Gordis]

The nazgul were not dead - as they have never died. "Undead" describes them well. Their bodies had faded, passed into the Spirit world, had become invisible, but they were still MATERIAL. The nazgul could wield swords, ride horses and interact with the Physical world. If anything, they resembled faded Elves, the Lingerers, but their origins were, of course, different.

The victims of a Morgul-wound also fall into the same category, undead wraiths, much like the nazgul, but weaker and under their command. Frodo was fading when brought to Rivendell, becoming a wraith, but he was not dying. Reading the description of Minas Morgul attentively, one might assume that there were quite a number of such wraiths gathered there.

The Dead of Dunharrow, in contrast, were indeed DEAD, not "undead": their bodies had long turned to dust, but their fëar were held in ME by their Oath. They were simple naked spirits devoid of material bodies - ghosts. They could only interact with the living by the fear they caused, but they couldn't wield material swords or ride normal horses. I believe they were entirely powerless against the fearless.

There were also Houseless Elves - In a way they resembled the Dead of Dunharrow. Their bodies had been slain and long gone, but their fëar refused the summons of Mandos and remained wandering bodiless in ME, seeking new bodies to inhabit. Thus they were quite dangerous to the Living.

Some scholars like Alvin Eriol (http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=20554) speculate rather convincingly that the Barrow-Wights were Houseless Elves housed in the decaying bodies or skeletons of the long-dead Dunedain buried in the Barrows.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Barrow-Wights... well, who knows. If they were originally just "spirits", then they might have inhabited the wraith-world from the very beginning and therefore, calling them "undead" won't be as "politically correct". Though there is the possibility that a Barrow-Wight, in fact = some empty shell of a skeleton + some sort of a said spirit to give it a "life". So Barrow-Wight as a whole could be called "undead", while the original spirit may be not. But that's just guessing.

Interesting take on the Barrow-Wights. I have nothing to contribute right now, but I'd love to find out more about them... always found them one of the many mysteries in Tolkien that I wanted to know more about.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The nazgul were not dead - as they have never died.

You say it as if anyone ever said that on this thread. As far as I am aware, no one did. But the similarity between Nazgul and Dead Men, in contrary to the Barrow-Wights (probably), is that they were originally living Men. That was the main point of the similarity.

[Gordis]

Yep. But I was talking about the differences.
I was trying to point out at some length that the Dead are not 'undead" (what a crazy observatioin!)

[Elmo]

The 'Wraith world' is interesting. Who made the wraith world, Eru?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Elmo

The 'Wraith world' is interesting. Who made the wraith world, Eru?

He must've indirectly as everything ultimately came from and went to Eru. However, I think the wraith world is a bit of a misnomer. It is used to explain a perhaps larger concept to people who couldn't understand it otherwise.

I've always believe the "wraith" world was actually the perspective of the Ainur, where they had their entities when they were not cloaked as men. It is still the world of the living, it is not a separate entity but rather a separate perspective. That's why the Nazghul still interact with the living, and when Glorfindel is seen by Frodo as he was on 'the other side' he still sees him across the river fighting the Nazghul.

It wasn't a different reality but just a different perception. It is the world of the senses, without the ring Frodo could feel a deep fear of the Nazghul and voila! With the ring on Frodo saw them and they sure were scary. So to finish off this bit of a tangent, the 'wraith' world is actually a state of heightened senses, where things are percieved differently.

It also explains why the Nazghul didn't see things as the hobbits did. They were almsot solely in the 'wraith' realm and therefore unable to feel with the conventional senses.

Going back to the discussion, I think that we are being too hasty claiming the Nazghul had never died. The Witch King was attempting to pierce Frodo's heart with the cursed blade, which would've made him into a wraith instantaneously. If you stop and think about it, piercing someone's heart with anything but a cursed blade of Morgul will also kill them instantaneously. Therefore it may just be that, in order to fully turn a wraith, you have to die physically and your fear has to somehow be 'contaminated' in a way that binds it to Middle Earth rather than going to whatever destiny awaits it (Mandos or the gift of men).

Furthermore, if this is true, then it may just happen that the difference between the Nazghul and the dead men of Dunharrow is not their undead/dead nature, but rather the kind of curse that binds their fear to Middle Earth and to a higher cause. Because neither wight is free, the Nazghul are slaves to Sauron and the men of Dunharrow are slaves to their oath.

So perhaps it's not whether you die or not, but rather whether your soul is free or not at the moment you die. Furthermore, the "kind" of wight you turn into depends on the type of curse you suffered. Sauron would not only want to curse but would want to have minions who can do physical harm, as he knew he could never wrestle the "wight world" off the Valar, but he sure could master the "physical" world and for that he needed wights who could carry weapons. Conversely, Isildur did not want wights who could fight, he probably just wanted to scare them into fighting and what bound them to Middle Earth was their oath and not anything Isildur may have done.

So, since we are making distinctions, I would suggest that there are two different types of "undead" that we read of in LoTR alone.

The wights, which are souls that are trapped in Middle Earth through a curse or an oath or any other entity that has the power to do so and

The spirits of the undead inhabiting bodies or objects. Here we have the barrow wights, where the bodies they inhabit are not their own and we also have the spirits that inhabited the doors of the tower where Frodo was caught. These are also disembodied spirits, with the difference that rather than remaining in their "spirit" form, they instead possessed (whether willingly or not) something else.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Farael

However, I think the wraith world is a bit of a misnomer. It is used to explain a perhaps larger concept to people who couldn't understand it otherwise.

The term wraith-word was used only once, IIRC, when Gandalf explained to Frodo the happenings at Weathertop and his interactions with the Ringwraiths. In other places it is called "the Unseen" , "the world of Shadow", "the other side" etc. The latter term I like best, because the Seen and the Unseen worlds are tightly bound together like two sides of the same coin.

Originally Posted by Farael

It wasn't a different reality but just a different perception.

I agree.
The Calaquendi Elves live in both words and wield great power both in Seen and the Unseen. The same likely applies to Maiar.
Ordinary Elves, like Legolas, were able to get some glimpses of the "other side: ‘The Dead are following,’ said Legolas. ‘I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. "
Even mere Men were able to perceive the Dead at times "Theoden: Folk say that Dead Men out of the Dark Years guard the way and will suffer no living man to come to their hidden halls; but at whiles they may themselves be seen passing out of the door like shadows and down the stony road."

Not so with a Dwarf. The fear fell on Gimli the heaviest, but he saw nothing, only heard whispers. Perhaps it means that the Dwarves have no access whatsoever into the World of Shadow? (Even the 7 Rings were unable to turn them invisible, to transport them into the Shadow-World.)

Originally Posted by Farael

It also explains why the Nazghul didn't see things as the hobbits did. They were almsot solely in the 'wraith' realm and therefore unable to feel with the conventional senses.

They were unable to see in daylight (maybe except the Witch-King), but in the night they were most dangerous:

They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell.

Also we know that nazgul have quite acute hearing.
Isn't it interesting that at night the boundary between the two words was not as strictly defined, it seems: the Seen and the Unseen blending?

Going back to the discussion, I think that we are being too hasty claiming the Nazghul had never died. The Witch King was attempting to pierce Frodo's heart with the cursed blade, which would've made him into a wraith instantaneously. If you stop and think about it, piercing someone's heart with anything but a cursed blade of Morgul will also kill them instantaneously. Therefore it may just be that, in order to fully turn a wraith, you have to die physically and your fear has to somehow be 'contaminated' in a way that binds it to Middle Earth rather than going to whatever destiny awaits it (Mandos or the gift of men).

Here I have to disagree. You will not find a single quote referring to Nazgul as "dead" or referring to their deaths.
Then, were the nazgul dead, how could they be killed AGAIN? You can't kill a ghost of Dunharrow - there is nothing to kill - but you can kill a nazgul if you have a right weapon.

Now about the Morgul blade. I doubt it was an ordinary metal weapon, remember it simply melted in daylight. Therefore it is possible that when it pierces a heart, it doesn't damage it enough to cause natural death, instead it delivers a poison (coupled with a dark spell) into the bood flow and changes the characteristics of the victim's body, making it cold and transparent, not needing food, or water, or sleep anymore. It sounds like fanfic, I know, but the nazgul's intention was clearly NOT to kill Frodo. That's why they used the Morgul blade (and were prepared to use another one in Crickhollow as well). The WK had a sword in his other hand and surely it was much easier to skewer the hobbit with it if Frodo had to die first and then to be turned into a wraith.

Originally Posted by Farael

Nazghul are slaves to Sauron and the men of Dunharrow are slaves to their oath.

Nazgul, strictly speaking, are slaves to the Nine Rings which Sauron now holds - therefore to Sauron. But he has lots of other slaves...
I think the real similarity between the Dead and the Undead is that something holds their souls bound to Middle Earth: the Oath and the Rings. In the case of the Houseless Elves it would be their unwillingness to go to Mandos.

So perhaps it's not whether you die or not, but rather whether your soul is free or not at the moment you die.

I would agree with one correction: …at the moment you are expected to die in the case of the nazgul.
The rings prolonged their lives far beyond the normal lifespan. They have become almost what they had desired to become - immortal, like Elves. Only there were 2 drawbacks. 1. Their souls of the Second-born still strived to be free and depart the Circles of the World - thus they felt drained until "every passing moment was a weariness." 2. Their bodies were not supposed to endure so long, but their rings didn't allow them to age and to die normally. Thus the bodies had faded, much like Elven bodies would fade, but much faster and earlier.
.

what bound [the Dead] to Middle Earth was their oath and not anything Isildur may have done.

I think so too.

So, since we are making distinctions, I would suggest that there are two different types of "undead" that we read of in LoTR alone.

The wights, which are souls that are trapped in Middle Earth through a curse or an oath or any other entity that has the power to do so and

The spirits of the undead inhabiting bodies or objects.

Nay, I have to propose a different classification:

1.The Undead - with a physical body present, but invisible
1a. Ringwraiths
1b. Wraiths (victims of the Morgul blades)
1c. Faded Elves, the Lingerers.

2. The Ghosts of the Dead - naked fëa without a body -
2a. Men-ghosts (of Dunharrow, Helm's ghost, etc)
2b. Elven ghosts: the Houseless

3. The fëar of the Dead housed in some bodies not their own or in objects.
3a. Houseless Elves "housed" unlawfully in living bodies - "possession"
3b. Houseless Elves (or other naked spirits)"housed" in dead bodies (not their own) - Barrow-wights
3c. Houseless Elves (or other naked spirits) "housed" in stones - Silent Watchers of Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not so with a Dwarf. The fear fell on Gimli the heaviest, but he saw nothing, only heard whispers. Perhaps it means that the Dwarves have no access whatsoever into the World of Shadow? (Even the 7 Rings were unable to turn them invisible, to transport them into the Shadow-World.)

Maybe only those created by Eru can see in both worlds. This would include the Ainu (in particular the Valar and Maiar) and the children of Illúvatar (Elves and Men) and possibly others. But the dwarves were made by Aulë, so maybe they did not have the full awareness of the Children.

An interesting thing would be Orcs. They were not fully made by Melkor (Morgoth) and were corrupted Children of Illúvatar. Does this mean they could see into both worlds? I would guess so, for example, to see the Nazgûl. Bu I don't have any copies of any of Tolkien's works on me, are there any instances i any texts? Does anyone have a quote?


Anway, didn't the barrow wights used to be kings of men? I'm sure I read that somewhere (maybe in the house of Tom Bombadil), but I have no copy of any of Tolkien's works on me so I can't prove this.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

An interesting thing would be Orcs. They were not fully made by Melkor (Morgoth) and were corrupted Children of Illúvatar. Does this mean they could see into both worlds? I would guess so, for example, to see the Nazgûl. Bu I don't have any copies of any of Tolkien's works on me, are there any instances i any texts? Does anyone have a quote?

Well anyone is able to see a nazgul if the nazgul is clothed.

I guess orcs had about the same abilities as to seeing the Unseen as ordinary Elves or Men. They would not have properties of the Calaquendi Elves, even if we suppose that there were some among their distant ancestors, because these properties are not inherited. One had to dwell in the Blessed Realm and see the Light of the Trees himself to become a Calaquendi and get access to both worlds.

And it seems orcs could be turned into ghosts, at least I think that is implied in the following quote:

Gorbag: "Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." - The Choices of Master Samwise

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Anway, didn't the barrow wights used to be kings of men? I'm sure I read that somewhere (maybe in the house of Tom Bombadil), but I have no copy of any of Tolkien's works on me so I can't prove this.

The Wights were some spirits who came from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows of Cardolan after the plague of TA 1636. It was the Witch-King who sent them. The bones in the barrows belonged to the Dunedain and their ancestors the Edain. It seems that the particular Barrow where the hobbits were imprisoned belonged to the Last Prince of Cardolan killed in TA 1409. Thus the Prince had been dead for more than 200 years when the Wights appeared to take over his bones.