Reputation Redux

[Mithalwen]

While it is probably just as well that the "Reputations" thread with its 1,490 posts (and yes I know I was responsible for a good proportion of them) cannot be bumped up since it had become overly self-congratulatory and speculatory (I hope I contributed less on those scores), I think a baby was thrown out with the bath water.

If this is inappropriate, I am sure the powers that be will replace it with something that is but I cannot find any guidance on this matter in FAQ and I know of Downers (not me as it happens)who have received anonymous neg reps which have crossed the boundary of "disapproving of a post" and have been on a continuum varying from unkind to downright spiteful.

I am not against neg-rep per se - I use it from time to time and most of us deserve the odd slap on the wrist now and then even if it is to shake us out of complacency. While disapproval may be interpreted subjectively and some people my feel that it includes things that they disagree with as well as things that are less contentious: spam, advertising, off topic, etc, it surely does not cover personal attacks to which the recipient has no way to respond.

Please find hereafter various pertinent extracts from the early pages of the old thread:

"... the idea is to rate the post, not the member. Your rating of the post, postive or negative, will affect that members reputation up or down. As reputations change, the Reputation messsage changes.

Please don't abuse the Reputation system. Don't use it as a way to play games or disrespect each other. Instead, use it to give your true opinion of the posts you rate. In doing so, you will give people a better idea "The BW

"It just seems pointless to me to leave anonymous ratings/comments for a person. I've always thought a person should step up and take responsibility for his opinions of the actions of others". Piosenniel

"Reputations aren't for "major" problems with others' posts. It's just for pointers, positive feedback, and general comments - simply "Hey, I like how you said..." or "Maybe you would consider trying to...". It's not a way to confront members you are experiencing problems with or anything - that should be handled through others means (as always, by notifying a moderator)". Legolas

"• Did I leave a comment with Reputation I gave to someone else? If you give someone Reputation, positive or negative, leave a comment. Don't be cowardly or lazy and leave it blank. Tell them what you liked (or disliked) about it. Don't leave them in the dark. It is sometimes very dark here in the Barrow.
• Am I being fair? Did my buddy deserve the good Reputation I just gave him, or am I just helping a friend out. Did I give someone a negative Reputation because their post was bad (in my opinion), or because I am mad at them? Make sure you give Reputations because of the post you are reading, and not because of the poster. Again, leave a comment. "
BW

"Be positive instead of negative unless someone is really misbehaving".BW


So far so clear. The only ambiguity is in these comments:

Also, for those of you who get negative reputations given, please don't write to me asking for an investigation. So far, everyone that has contacted me with a concern has each had a grand total of one (1) bad reputation with a point value of -1. This is nothing to panic about. The reputations system is a wonderful tool, and if you doubt me, just sort the Members List by Reputation and you will see how accurate it is.

Thanks
BW


(Psst: if you find that an urgent reason to complain to the Wight, the bad reputation might have been quite accurate) Sharku,


While it is fair enough that it is unfair to burden mods because you are piqued at the loss of a few rep points, they might well inhibit those with just cause "contacting a moderator", because they don't want to waste their time, (certainly the Downers I referred to earlier probably come in to that category and so, I unsolicited do it for them!). I don't post this to be self righteous - I know I am not blameless in the (mis)use of the Rep system as the stats show but it cannot harm any of us to think before we hit that button and maybe really ruin someone's day. Of course it shouldn't matter what some anonymous person thinks of us, we should " Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." but there are real people behind the screen names with real feelings and if you don't have the courage of your convictions enough to put your name to your comments, if you don't in effect want to say it to their face - maybe you shouldn't say it at all?

[Thinlómien]

I can only second what you said.

[Rikae]

And I third it.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

there are real people behind the screen names with real feelings and if you don't have the courage of your convictions enough to put your name to your comments, if you don't in effect want to say it to their face - maybe you shouldn't say it at all?

Absolutely right.

If one actually wants to change someone's opinions or behavior for benevolent reasons, I would think that one ought to be willing to engage in a dialogue (via PM, for instance). Anonymous "sniping" doesn't accomplish anything positive - it only hurts people.
Furthermore, when the beliefs or actions they criticize aren't Downs related, but personal; anonymous neg-repping is still more uncalled for and immature. If a person isn't doing anything to offend you or the Downs community in general, "live and let live".

[alatar]

Sounds like the same issue resides elsewhere due to the anonymity of the web, as noted here.

[Mithalwen]

to feel the need to bump this up but it seem there is a need for the reminder.

The reputation system is not for punishing people who have different beliefs or opinions to your own.

Also a reminder that many Downers are not posting in their first language and may not always use the most felicitous form of words. And some words may have different significance in different countries even where English is the first language.

If you have a problem with something someone has said why not try a PM -or at least sign your rep? Often people post something (knowing exactly what they mean) not realising that someone realising that someone can read it with a completely different "tone of voice".

For example, I once was neg repped for posting something on the lines of :
"well at least I got something right" . I had made some factual error in part of a previous post and had posted it meaning "at least I got SOMETHING right" to express relief that I hadn't been completely wrong. Only after the anonymous (of course) neg rep did I realise it could be read as "at least I got something right" and seeming to express superiority over another poster. With that perspective the neg rep was just and to be taken on the chin but if I had known whom I had upset at least I could have explained that I had intended to self-deprecate not to sneer...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Also a reminder that many Downers are not posting in their first language and may not always use the most felicitous form of words. And some words may have different significance in different countries even where English is the first language.

I couldn't agree more with this. I've myself found this a most annoying problem. Add to that the fact that online one can't accompany what one says with all the bodylanguage and facial expressions one can when talking to someone in a real situation.

So let's just be easy around here.

[The Might]

I definitely agree.
I remember receiving a neg rep on one of my first posts here because I didn't read the rules of Crazy Captions with enough attention and thought I could post a line to an older caption as well and not only to the latest one.
Then again, I don't really mind negative reps that much, only bit annoying.
Actually I haven't gotten one of those in quite some time.

[davem]

Never having handed out negative rep I suppose I get a bit irked when I get some. That said, I don't think I've had more than three or four lots. Mostly though I feel guilty for not handing out more positive rep.....and even when I do it tends to just consist of 'Good one ....davem'. The odd thing is getting a pm from someone thanking you for giving them positive rep - it brings home to you how significant it is: if someone will go to the trouble of writing to thank you for positive rep you get an inkling of how much it must hurt them to get negative rep - the main reason I've always avoided doing so.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I agree with davem. I have never neg-repped anyone, perhaps because I know how I'd feel if someone neg-repped me. I may not agree with everything people say, but I don't see that as reason to mark someone down. If I really want to disagree, I'll remark in the thread, but generally I don't even bother with that. Seems better (and easier!) to just get along with everyone.

On the subject of some Downers not using their first languages, I feel compelled to say that I think everyone here communicates extremely well, no matter where they're from.

[alatar]

With the infraction system in place, not sure why we need the negative rep anymore.

And even a short note let's you know that someone at least read your post. A longer note, which I'm guilty of rarely adding, really can make my day.

Note to davem: my research shows that if you want to get rep, seemingly you have to give it (not that you should lack ).

[Bêthberry]

A timely, reminder, Mithalwen that the rep system is intended to reflect the quality (or lack of it) in discussion rather than agreement or disagreement. Even people with whom we disagree might still, because of the nature of human conversation, enable us to see something new, something interesting, something well done, something that lifts us out of the mundane and ordinary.

I've always thought that neg reps were to be used in cases where posters have, repeatedly and obstinately, after polite requests and several warnings, refused to follow the Downs' rules about courtesy and respect in online discussion--flames, personal attacks, spam. Maybe add to that overbearing insistence upon stating , restating, and restating again one's position ad infinitum, without ever listening to other points of view, and possibly baiting people with the apparent intent to ridicule. Really,with the option of posting to refute or using PM, what's the point of anonymous negative reps?

Originally Posted by davem

The odd thing is getting a pm from someone thanking you for giving them positive rep - it brings home to you how significant it is: if someone will go to the trouble of writing to thank you for positive rep you get an inkling of how much it must hurt them to get negative rep - the main reason I've always avoided doing so.

I suspect people have any number of reasons why they send thank you PMs to people for positive reps. For some, it could simply be a matter of courtesy and politeness, an acknowledge of kindess. For others, it could be a means to open up further areas of discussion. There could be as many possible motivations as there are people. I don't think it's necessarily odd at all.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Since I'm new here, this is obviously just me tossing in a general opinion/observation of my own. I've been a participant on a lot of boards that use a rating/rep/mod system, and it seems that on all of them, sooner or later, it becomes an issue (usually not for the better. Actually, I can't recall a single site where, when it DID become an issue, it wasn't in a negative way). I'm given to understand that this feature is used as means to allow the active members of the board to have input into moderation, but sometimes, I have to wonder if it's more trouble than it's worth.

Now, that said, from what I've seen here, both during my lurking phase and as a participant, this is one of the most well-behaved, mature boards I've ever seen. I don't know what's going right in the Downs (stability of membership, perhaps?), but it's a pleasure to see. And a commendation to site owner, the moderators, and the members all. Bravo (and brava)!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I suspect people have any number of reasons why they send thank you PMs to people for positive reps. For some, it could simply be a matter of courtesy and politeness, an acknowledge of kindess. For others, it could be a means to open up further areas of discussion. There could be as many possible motivations as there are people. I don't think it's necessarily odd at all.

I should thank people more for the positive rep I get - sadly I'm always seem to be too busy particularly at the moment (well, the reason I'm busy isn't sad, but....you know what I mean). My biggest fault at the moment is taking ages, or even forgetting, to respond to PM's! Talk about 'One thing drives out another.' - try becoming a father for the first time at 47

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

I should thank people more for the positive rep I get - sadly I'm always seem to be too busy particularly at the moment (well, the reason I'm busy isn't sad, but....you know what I mean). My biggest fault at the moment is taking ages, or even forgetting, to respond to PM's! Talk about 'One thing drives out another.' - try becoming a father for the first time at 47

That all said, but you only have one! Can't understand what you're doing with all of your free time.

Think that the PM responses to rep also help to build the community - slim ties maybe, but better than nothing.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by alatar

That all said, but you only have one! Can't understand what you're doing with all of your free time.

Agreed. Would you like some cheese with that wine?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

Agreed. Would you like some cheese with that wine?

I will take all of the wine you've got as well, along with the cheese.

And note I remember (vaguely) what it was like to be a parent of one, and now that I have four, think back to those times and wonder why I was so spastic...it was only one, before the time of zone defense.

And that's why you should rep people when they do make a better than average post - you don't know what it took them to even get fingers to the keyboard that day.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I suspect people have any number of reasons why they send thank you PMs to people for positive reps. For some, it could simply be a matter of courtesy and politeness, an acknowledge of kindess. For others, it could be a means to open up further areas of discussion. There could be as many possible motivations as there are people. I don't think it's necessarily odd at all.

I think that there is a lot of truth in this - and in Alatar's suggestion that it is a way of forming community links.

Given that "social discourse" has usually been stamped on pretty hard, a rep is a way in to PM communication on a topic. Most of my friendships and acquaintanceships here have started through such conversations. Since I am now so used to the place it is hard for me to judge if the Downs is as daunting as it was when I joined (with the Canonicity debate in full steam) and despite not being in the first flush of youth and having many years of Tolkien reading (and a Literature degree) behind me it took me quite some time to dare to post in "Books". Receiving rep was very encoouraging and saying thank you was a way of meeting people you might not have pm'ed on spec.

This may seem a bit demented to people who are more confident..(or not British !) but I seldom bother to visit another board anymore because all serious discussions are dominated by two old timers who seem to delight in smacking down newcomers. Either what you say is wrong or what they have said already....

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An excellent reminder, Mithalwen, and good points, especially those added by Bêthberry and alatar. Yes, positive feedback is encouraging, and I think it is important to give newcomers and shy posters that kind of reassurance. The community aspect is certainly an important one. I know that it makes my day (and I'm no newbie around here, nor am I shy!) when someone gives me a positive comment after I've made an effort to post well.

Look closely at the words in the box when you click on the rep icon:

I approve
I disapprove

Not, "I agree" or "I disagree"!

I can recall giving a positive rep and comment (signed, of course) to someone with whose posted opinion I did not agree, but it was stated so thoughtfully that I thought it deserved to be rated positively for that reason.

I have also given a negative rep with comment (signed as well) to a post with which I basically agreed, but it was stated so aggressively that I did not approve of the manner of posting.

Yes, I do give negative reps, but only when I feel that the poster has expressed his/her opinion in an inappropriate manner, or when the same opinion has been stated so repetitively that it is exceedingly boring. However, most members here on the Downs post enjoyably, so the positive reps I give are certainly in the majority!

[Mithalwen]

than to let this thread disappear into the depths as completely irrelevant but seemingly it is time to bump it up again.

It seems that someone is playing silly beggars again, so time for a Captain Obvious moment.

Anonymous neg repping is cowardly

Neg repping under an assumed name is really deeply unpleasant.

It also raises the possibility that some despicable person could cause a lot of mischief by signing neg rep with the name of a bone fide Downer. This would be a lot easier to do now that we are all rep at about the same weight.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

It also raises the possibility that some despicable person could cause a lot of mischief by signing neg rep with the name of a bone fide Downer. This would be a lot easier to do now that we are all rep at about the same weight.

I don't mind receiving bad reps when they make sense; however, I got a rather rude one from a person named Angrist the other day. I looked up the name in the member list, but to no avail. Gutless.

P.S. By the way, i-n-t-e-l-l-i-g-e-n-c-e is spelled with 2 L's, Angrist.

[the phantom]

It also raises the possibility that some despicable person could cause a lot of mischief by signing neg rep with the name of a bone fide Downer.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I've been signing all of my neg-reps "from Esty". Sorry.

But seriously, yes, if you're going to neg rep give your name. If it's not a criticism that you feel you can attach your name to then it probably doesn't need to be given.

[Morai]

I think the only neg rep I got was blank. So I have no idea why they didn't like my post, only that they didn't like it. A name would've been nice, so I could pm them and pursue the issue a little further and perhaps resolve and/or improve it.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I don't mind receiving bad reps when they make sense; however, I got a rather rude one from a person named Angrist the other day. I looked up the name in the member list, but to no avail. Gutless.

P.S. By the way, i-n-t-e-l-l-i-g-e-n-c-e is spelled with 2 L's, Angrist.

Wow. What a huge scumbag.

I only got one neg-rep, and it was unsigned, but I think it was from a new user who probably had yet to "get" the whole rep "thing". It was for a post with which the neg-repper simply disagreed, though he/she/it didn't actually dislike my tone or style or something neg-rep worthy. But, because I'm relatively sure it was a newly dead Downer, while the disagreement should have been addressed through a responding post rather than a neg-rep, I don't actually hold any hard feelings about it. Though...I have some Sicilian cousins who do little jobs for the family, and they may be taking a plane trip when I find out who it was...

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I don't mind receiving bad reps when they make sense; however, I got a rather rude one from a person named Angrist the other day. I looked up the name in the member list, but to no avail. Gutless.

I got one from the same guy! It said: "Please try and use inteligent speech like Morth and Gwathagor! ~Angrist" At first I thought it was Morth or Gwath under a disguised name, but I guess that I was wrong.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I got one from the same guy! It said: "Please try and use inteligent speech like Morth and Gwathagor! ~Angrist" At first I thought it was Morth or Gwath under a disguised name, but I guess that I was wrong.

If it wasn't a ne'er-do-well talking (Angrist, that is, not Groin), I'd take that as a compliment.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

The only neg rep I've ever gotten was well deserved, but I got this positive rep that was blank, I don't know why I got it and there was no comment with it, it wasn't even signed... I don't know why... maybe the person was just dealing out rep points? But I think that if you're going to give rep, then you should give it for good reason...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I repped you. . .but I am quite sure that was signed.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I repped you. . .but I am quite sure that was signed.

Yes, it was...

[Gwathagor]

How many rep points do I have to get before I get two boxes, Thinlomien or Legate? Any idea?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

How many rep points do I have to get before I get two boxes, Thinlomien or Legate? Any idea?

I can answer that... 100 points will make it.

[Gwathagor]

Man...really? That's going to take me forever.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I'm still fairly new to the place, so take whatever I have to say with that in mind, but I would tend to think that an unsigned (or commentless) positive rep might come from someone unfamiliar with the system, and its local protocols. An unsigned negative one is possibly the same, but also possibly someone who fears retaliation (after all, who's going to go after someone for giving them a virtual thumbs up? But the thumbs down, especially a rude one....) The one that appears to be signed by a member who doesn't exist.... Now, that strikes me as a tad suspicious. I would suspect it's from someone who knows the ropes quite well indeed, and is attempting to avoid retaliation, or point the finger of blame at someone else. Funny, though, from the wording and the misspelling, a couple of candidates immediately came to mind, but I would never name names (pointless to add to the bruhaha, I think). Anyway, it's things like this that always make me wonder at the value of the various kinds of reputation systems I've seen around the net boards. It's so easy for people to misuse them, either to be malicious, or to go around artificially pumping up the reps of their buddies. But I must admit, this system is probably less prone to frivolous misuse than some others I've seen -- another reason I like the community. Most members appear to use it sensibly, which I think is a major kudo to the community rather than the system. Can I give a positive rep point to the board itself...?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Funny, though, from the wording and the misspelling, a couple of candidates immediately came to mind, but I would never name names

Heh heh...yeah.

[Mithalwen]

I certainly would not want this thread to become a forum of speculation. Bear in mind that the old thread was closed for getting very baggy with posts about reps people had got and from whom.

I would say that an anonymous positive rep is either because someone doesn't realise that their name isn't automatically shown (as with PMs) or is shy. I know that when I started I felt almost presumptuous repping the great of the day - who was I as a mere newcomer to approve their posts. For whatever reason it is a nice thing - treat it as a Valentine. It is unlikely not to be reasonably obvious why your post was good.

Neg reps are different for the reasons above ....

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

this system is probably less prone to frivolous misuse than some others I've seen -- another reason I like the community. Most members appear to use it sensibly, which I think is a major kudo to the community rather than the system. Can I give a positive rep point to the board itself...?

I really agree with this.

[Thinlómien]

What happened to Thenamir?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What happened to Thenamir?

It would appear that some of the Admins around here have a wacky sense of humour and a mordant sense of authority.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It would appear that some of the Admins around here have a wacky sense of humour and a mordant sense of authority.

Well that certainly answers the question of what the top level of the new rep cycle is...

By the way, Bêthy my love, I adore your use of the word mordant. I wish more people incorporated it into casual conversation.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

By the way, Bêthy my love, I adore your use of the word mordant. I wish more people incorporated it into casual conversation.

Thankee, my dear Fea.

Through questionable morphology and erroneous phonology it sounds like the French for dead, and since mordants fix things (in dyeing), well, the shaky philological associations were just too tempting to refuse. Likely such a confluence is ne're to occur again on this dark screen.


And are we sure the Crack of Doom is the farthest one can go? Surely sailing west would be the pinnacle for one such as our man Thena?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What happened to Thenamir?

Holy holy holy holy cow ..... !