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07-09-2007, 11:36 AM | #1 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Teacher's Bad Rowling Advice
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/s...name_page.html
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It seems Mr Eddy felt that stories about Elves can't be 'gritty', & that they have no place in the mental space of an 11 year old. Of course, Tolkien attacked this very attitude in OFS, but its clearly still quite prevalent among the 'literati' (there are numerous reviews of CoH that take the same approach). I find it more shocking that a teacher can think the same way. If it comes to 'gritty' stories, what is grittier than the Icelandic Sagas - or CoH, & Elves & Dragons play a pretty prominent part in those? But when did this attitude arise? Tolkien talked about fantasy & fairy stories being relegated to the nursery, but why? Haven't adults always loved these tales? Of course, we can find fairies being presented in a 'knowing', mocking, way by Shakespeare in A Midsummer Night's Dream, & by contemptuously dismissed by Cervantes in Don Quixote, yet around the same time Spenser had produced The Faerie Queene. At the same time Spenser was using Faerie to allegorise the cult of Gloriana. I wonder if the situation is changing though? Will the popularity of Harry Potter, HDM (for all Pullman's statements about 'using fantasy to undermine fantasy'), & LotR (movies as well as books) finally put a stop to teacher's like Mr Eddy, or is this attitude of 'write about grown-up things', or 'only write about what you know' going to persist? Shouldn't teachers be encouraging children to use their imagination to the full? Can't help wondering how many other potential JK's have been lost along the way through following teacher's 'advice'. Would we have had the Legendarium if Tolkien had had a teacher like Mr Eddy? |
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07-09-2007, 12:15 PM | #2 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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07-09-2007, 12:27 PM | #3 | ||
Alive without breath
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I personally have come into conflict with those (even teachers and lecturers) who have discouraged me from writing anything fantastical or faerie in orientation or style. This is probably down to literary snobbery. Fairies and myths are seen as the thing that the primitives and children and those of lower intelligence go into, where as things like Jane Austine* are seen as the higher areas because it is 'cultural' and 'normal'. Since fantasy delves into the abnormal and the things that the eyes do not (often) see, touching on the inexplicable and down right unbelievable, some people are scared off. It is one thing, I suppose, to imagine a dragon, but to meet one, even in a book, can be an unnerving thing. Faeries also have their perils. As Tolkien so rightly said, of the realm of Faerie: Quote:
But one cannot blame those who fear to treat those paths. For the realm of Faërie is a perilous one; a man may count himself fortunate to have wandered there, but it is dangerous for him to ask too many questions, lest the gates be shut and the keys be lost. This realm is also wide and high and filled with many things; shore-less seas, stars uncounted, beauty that is an enchantment, and an ever present peril. Both joy and sorrow as sharp as swords, and all manner of birds and beasts, and especially, the Dragon. * *Stabs it with fork*
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07-09-2007, 12:44 PM | #4 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I hope you'll forgive a long quote from OFS:
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07-09-2007, 01:11 PM | #5 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Frankly, I think we should applaud Mr. Eddy heartily for his sterling negative encouragement. Had it not been for him, Ms JK might not have had the gumption or motivation to go on and create Hermione, Ron and that Heddy Cropper fellow.
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07-09-2007, 01:25 PM | #6 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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But we're not yet termites in one big mound. We're humans, and one of the things that we do is explore the universe, and imagination plays a big part in that. What is imagination other than another tool that we use to survive? Can I eat that bug? Maybe a story or song would help me remember. Can I ford that river? Maybe there's a better way, and wasn't I just thinking about spiders? Anyway, an offshoot of this is to look at the world and see otherwise. Another thing about fantasy is that, to me, it's even harder to write...well. Anyone, as davem may have noted elsewhere about the Dragonlance (?) novels, can churn out text that includes elves and dragons and giants, but to do it well, you have to make this new world seem so right and natural that it's almost transparent. When reading LotR I wasn't brought up short by the existence of a Balrog - it seemed to fit, make sense and so I never skipped a beat. Writing about life today is also challenging, but you have cultural references with which to work, and can 'see' what you want to use. In fantasy writing, even the simplest of things must be considered. Do elves even have feet? If not, how do they walk? The fact that many of the peoples of ME are humanoid-type just shows how hard it can be even for a master. And lastly, as I've rambled on long enough, sometimes it's easier to write/read about something very important when it's removed to the fantasy world. Telling the world that the new city is ugly may not be as safe (when heard by the creators) or effective as creating a novel helping them (falsely) remember how wonderful the old city was, even if the old city never existed.
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07-09-2007, 01:48 PM | #7 | ||
Sage & Onions
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If you look at the first page of each author's first book, you'll find these two quotes-
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
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07-09-2007, 01:50 PM | #8 |
A Mere Boggart
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Half the struggle is in getting kids to write anything creative at all. I did a project looking at different ways to prompt and develop storytelling with 14 year olds, and some of them were as watertight as granite when it came to getting them to exercise the rainbow (as opposed to grey) matter. However, given enough encouragement it was surprising how the most uptight, grade-grubbing nerdy kids would let fly with some mad storytelling (one very scary one about zombies springs to mind). Alas, so much of school now seems to be utilitarian, and its surprising just how many kids are quite happy about that! If only they knew that all that learning how to write business letters will have been useless when they get jobs and have to conform to the corporate house style...
What I don't like is that children are being encouraged not to write on certain subjects, as you will write about whatever turns you on, frankly! Yes, learn different styles and formats of writing, but as for whether you write about pixies, ponies, politicians or pugilists, it's your voice. Where i can see that this comes up as an issue is when you get that kid who sits there wailing "But I dunno what to write about!" The easy way out then is to say "Write about what you know!" However, the kid who knows what they are going to write about is a treasure! And that makes me think of my old writing tutor - I'd spend hours gassing away to him because I had a ton of ideas, but he used to get exasperated at the number of students who'd opted to take a degree where writing was compulsory and could come up with nothing more unique than rhetorical and repetitive verse about why people die in Africa. Also he liked to see what wacky outfits I'd turn up in - the vintage velvet bellbottoms were a fave I recall, but I digress... Luckily I had good teachers more or less, laying aside the alcoholic who told me I'd fail my O Levels (riiiight, brain addled by vodka....) so nobody told me what to write about, just how to do it. And they had trouble stopping me at times. I think that's why I like Lyra in HDM so much - she's full of stories. But there is one lesson that's a good one to learn, and that's not to stick within genre cliches - in fact forget all about genre and whether what you write is realistic or fantasy or not - just write what's swirling round in your head if you want to be really original
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07-09-2007, 02:03 PM | #9 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Well, Rumil, Eddy does say in the Mirror article that he gave his students fantasy books to read.
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07-09-2007, 03:09 PM | #10 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Of course, this is by the by. Its the attitude that's the problem, the idea that fantasy is fine for kids, but as they get older & move towards being adults they should 'put away such childish things' & start on the 'gritty realism'. And this pro-'gritty realism' approach is quite pernicious - because its nothing to do with getting children to include 'adult' things like sex, violence & swearing - anyone familiar with unbowdlerised fairystories, myths & Sagas, knows that they're full of that kind of thing - its about getting them to exclude the Elves, Trolls & Dragons which can elevate even the grossest aspects of that kind of tale by introducing Magic & the sense that even in the darkest, ugliest places there is the possibility of something 'more' lurking just over the next hill. So, this is not so much an attack on Mr E. Its an 'attack' on the attitude that 11 year olds have to be encouraged to 'outgrow' Elves & Dragons. Clearly there is a desire, a need, among the general populace for those things, while at the same time there seems to be a conviction among certain members of the 'literati' & the educational establishment that it shouldn't be there, that such desires are 'wrong', immature & need to be gotten rid of. Their anger about, & contempt in response to, the popularity among adults of LotR, Harry Potter & the like actually sets them apart from the majority of us who love such things - & I think we are in the majority (even though many people feel embarrassed to admit out love - look at the way the HP books are issued in 'Adult' covers ). Now, I don't know if Mr E is on the extreme wing of that movement, but he seems at least to be on the fringes of it. However, I'm happy to leave him on one side & focus more on the general attitude as pointed up by Tolkien in OFS. |
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07-09-2007, 03:29 PM | #11 |
Blithe Spirit
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I get thoroughly depressed when I hear people moaning that Harry Potter is not "real" enough.. I read some article about how he should get a few ASBOs etc to make the whole story more "down with the kids."
Yeah right. On the other hand, the literary genre that kids these days all seem to be obsessed with is horror. Which in many ways I find even more depressing than the "gritty reality" stuff. Particularly with all this nasty torture-porn Eli Roth stuff around right now....
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07-09-2007, 05:02 PM | #12 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I'm only catching up slowly as there seems to be too many things to make a comment on. But this for starters.
So going a bit back with this discussion… The educated people in the middle ages – and indeed long forwards to the modern age (before the advent of romanticism) thought that imagination was something where human mind broke apart that which was indeed one in the world and put together those which were separate things in the world. Like a fork. There were a lots of thorns in nature as well as stems but only human imagination could bring forwards a fork combining the two! (Nicolas Cusanus, 15th century – at that time many people thought forks devilish inventions…). Even in 1757 Charles Batteux who coined the word ‘art’ insisted that human imagination can only operate with things it has experienced and all the monsters and fairies are the result of putting together or cutting away of the characteristics of things perceived in real life (like unicorns, centaurs or hydras). This view was held up to the romanticism era, when people suddenly got a boost to their egos and started slowly thinking that their personal or “own” imaginations could be greater than the world as it is. Goethe was one of those who got in the middle of this then current dispute when he answered the inquirer whether his appreciation of the beautiful sunset on the mountains were lessened because he knew of the science of colours and how they behaved. Goethe scorned the question, of course it was even heightened experience when he knew how the rays of light acted! I think Tolkien was torn in between the thin line between the earlier times he admired and the newer romaticism he belonged to - and finally gave up and fell to romanticism (because of the war-experiences, his love-affair etc.). So as davem asked in his first post, Quote:
As an anecdote I should point to this. The pope Gregorious (Gregorius the Great, on 7th century) decided to establish a canon of Christian music while so far people in different parts of the world had praised God in very different manners. He had only one requirement to the people who would accomplish this task leading to what is nowadays known as gregorian chant: keep it simple so as a layman standing in the backrow could easily sing along after hearing it once. Now put your hand in your heart and say whether you can follow a gregorian melody after one hearing? So are we the ones who can say that the greatest stories and the most imaginative things come from within our individual selves today? "Inspiratrion" in roman latin meant in-spirare - breathing in. So taking in something outside us not bringing forwards our outstandingly differentiated individuality. Romanticism brought forwards the idea that the genius is innate and personal. While the class-structure was breaking down and the elite were not any more seen as born to that higher recognition there was a chance for the poor intellectuals to claim their place... As we know that never happened in a grander scale even if some flourished. I'm a bit lost about this overall... What would be the full imagination then the teachers should encourage? Aren't the prevailing theories of the universe by physics imaginative enough? Which one is more imaginative and more awesome: the pantheon of the early Greeks or the universe of the quantum-physics? I love the Greek mythology and understand barely nothing of quantum physics, but still I think this begs the question as I myself am quite ready to accept my knowledge is shallow... and maybe Goethe had a point?
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07-09-2007, 07:17 PM | #13 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Having majored in English Lit. for my B.A. before moving on to Medieval Studies for my M.A. (I know, could I have chosen two more frivolous degrees?), I would have to say that there are 'acceptable' fantasies in the curriculum of most schools, such as Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, Beowulf, the study of Greek and Roman pantheons (which are usually relegated to Comparative Religion classes), and, of course, the odd Shakespeare play; however, those have received the patina of legitimacy based on centuries of study. It would have been unheard of to discuss Tolkien's cosmology with any of my professors (although quite acceptable to debate his exquisite philological research regarding Beowulf, Gawaine and the Green Knight, Orfeo or Pearl).
I cannot speak for British universities, but in the U.S. the English departments are highly politicized and agendized, either left or right wing leaning dependent on their department heads; therefore, as in my case, I was more likely to be studying Kafka, Camus, Hemingway, Faulkner, Cheever, Bellow, Rand, D.H. Lawrence, etc., rather than literature I really cared for (T.H. White, Tolkien, Yeats, Huxley, etc.) because it did not fit the agenda. Erskine Caldwell's Tobacco Road, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man and Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath were compulsory not because they were classics of modern literature in their own right, but because of the inherent political message they inferred. Many of the folks I knew who went on into the teaching profession maintained the ingrained ideologies impressed upon them in school, a certain political correctness I abhor, and do not deviate from the curriculums they were browbeaten with years before. A friend of mine is getting her Masters at the same university I attended twenty years previously, and I was appalled at her syllabus: it read like an extended sociology curriculum rather than English Lit. It has gotten even worse! And so, to draw my diatribe to a close, the fantasy element in literature is indeed frowned upon and deemed intellectually inferior, or as in Tolkien's case, perhaps a bit too quaint and certainly too chauvinistic and tainted with religious symbolism for the PC palate of many teachers. As a parent of a soon-to-be second-grader, it is too early to tell what reading curriculum will be deemed acceptable when she hits 11 or 12, but I do remember a fractious school board meeting I attended where I had to defend books authored by Mark Twain that were scheduled to be removed from the library shelves. I am becoming quite leery of the U.S. educational system, but fortunately for my daughter we have already read fantasies like The Hobbit, Charlotte's Web and Alice in Wonderland, much to her delight. I hope that, like myself, she maintains that delight throughout her adult life.
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07-10-2007, 06:45 AM | #14 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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In fact, you only have to look at the high fantasy of Doctor Who to see how science can be utterly mind-bending and imaginative. Quote:
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07-10-2007, 07:20 AM | #15 |
Shady She-Penguin
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This attitude towards fantasy is weird. There is something that makes many people avoid fantasy like it was an illness. My mother, for example, once said to me that "I hope that you some day grow out of that" when I pondered if I should start LotR again after just having finished it. Though her comment was humorous and affectionate, it still was a stupid comment, if you ask me. One of my mother's best friends is a man about her age. They've known each other for something like 20 years. This man is around 40 years old and he owns a fantasy shop of his own and plays various fantasy games and reads fantasy and sci-fi. Sometimes it seems my mother regards him as very childish because of this, or if not childish, then maybe a bit weird/funny, but again in the good snse. Can't fantasy be a "serious" hobby or interest for grown-up people? Why does it provoke such amused hush-hush reactions? I appreciate my mother but I just can't get why she shares this very common viewpoint.
But if you look very close, the heart of the problem is probably that most people see fantasy only as the Dragonlance/Robert Jordan/Weis&Hickman/Eddings (whose books I actually do like unlike the others on this list ) stuff. The clumsy and pompous badly-written and cheap-looking stuff with too much everything just seems to rule the popular image of fantasy. Some say that the so-called magic realism and the Nobel-winner García Marquez's A Hundred Years of Solitude is fantasy. It is highly approved in literary circles. There are many similar writers categorised as fantasy. But because they are fantasy, not "normal literature" potential readers avoid them. Wouldn't people who like historical novels enjoy say Guy Gavriel Kay's ambitious political alternative history books? But they can't read them because they're fantasy. So stupid. I'm waiting for the day people realize fantasy includes those interesting cross-overs between imaginary and real and the highly complex almost political thrilling novels and so much else. Not just dragons, trolls, elves and dwarves in cheap-looking covers. That would be one problem solved and as already said aloud in this thread, it probably is being solved these days. But what about our traditional fantasy with dragons, elves, dwarves, magic and valiant heroes? When can it arise and shake off the cheapness writers like Weis&Hickman have stamped over it? I don't know. Many writers seem to be avoiding this kind of fantasy these days. I've noticed avoiding it myself if I'm making up stories for my own amusement. It's a pity. For who would not like to read something about those great peoples and creatures of Faerie, if it was well-written and believable? And this has very little to do with the thread topic, but as it's somewhat related I can ramble a bit about it as well. Why are fantasy books separated from other books in libraries and bookshops? Maybe therte are good reasons for it. But there is one bad thing about it as well. If you pick a book from thhe "normal book" section and in the book a wizard appears and claims to be able to do magic you instantly think "hah, he's a fraud, because wizards don't exist in the real world". But if you had picked the same book from the fantasy shelf, you'd (probably) think this character was really a wizard and able to do magic. How annoying. Sorry for ranting and rambling...
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07-10-2007, 10:41 AM | #16 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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It's always struck me as odd that "modernism"- the mandatory artistic creed for most of the past century- has actually meant so many and often contradictory things. "Modern" literature - I remember not long ago some pompous poster on rabt going on about the "post-World War I consensus" (meaning of course the bourgeois novel)- seems to be obsessed with "realism" (preferably of course gritty)- and the Literati seem always to prefer petty, miserable stories about the petty, miserable little lives of petty, miserable little people in petty, miserable little suburbs. Whereas over the same period visual art, of course, has been running screaming away from anything resembling realism, and the 'serious' musical world utterly rejected tonality, realism's aural analogue. How bizarre! How can what is purported to be the same intellectual movement denounce la phantaste as childish, yet praise Paul Klee to the skies?
I suspect a very great deal of it has to do with snobbery. Nothing that peasants and philistines might enjoy can possibly be any good. |
07-10-2007, 11:19 AM | #17 |
Blithe Spirit
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It really annoys me when children's literature is praised for being "real life" and that this "reality" equals foster homes, ASBOs and abuse.
OK, that sort of thing is unfortunately a reality for some children but not the majority. Why is the reality of ordinary children somehow less valid than that of the deprived minority? I would argue that for most readers, the "gritty realist" novels by the likes of Jacqueline Wilson - mothers who are profoundly mentally ill, children in foster homes, whatever - are actually fantasy. Because they have nothing to do with the reality of the children reading them. I was there - I had the first wave of "social realist" literature for young people inflicted on me when I was little. "John sat in a ****-stained cement stairway on his grim council estate, trying to come to terms with his parents' divorce....." Strewth. Give me Hogwarts and Hobbiton any day.
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07-10-2007, 11:34 AM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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What are ASBOs?
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07-10-2007, 11:44 AM | #19 |
Illustrious Ulair
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07-10-2007, 12:31 PM | #20 | |||
Cryptic Aura
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Frankly, I think this dichotomy between fantasy and "gritty realism" is a bit of a broad stroke. Just think of the novels of Iain Banks, aka Iain M. Banks. His 'realistic' works are incredibly macabre fantasies. Now there's one writer who is definitely making fantasy mainstream!
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07-10-2007, 02:03 PM | #21 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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So we aint even got fantasy celebs to look up to any more. Bring back people like Audrey Hepburn, please.... Quote:
Or it could just be marketing of course yet again - like you say, not all books with wizards in are fantasy, so why cordon books off into one section? It's because they want to sell things to us, things they think we might be tempted by. They do the same thing now in music shops which really, really annoys me as it takes ten times as long to find what you want...
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07-10-2007, 02:28 PM | #22 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I try to come more into the topic this time (sorry about the last one, I got a bit carried away with the associations... that's what happens when one is up too late and drinks wine to accompany himself... ).
I think some of the reasons for all this adult/modernist scorn for fantasy is based on some quite simple things. Like associating fantasy to the fairy-tales for the children - from which every decent adult should grow up from. Now princes and princesses, dragons, valiant deeds, honour, ideals to die for, happy endings... c'mon! Nice and educative for kids but... Like looking at the general preconception of fantasy with it's widely spread half-porn imagery from Conan Barbarian to mass-fantasy book-covers. So fantasies indeed for nerds... (wasn't it that the creator of Conan was a small and grey office clerk or something? Would fit the general scorn nicely) Like associating the fantasy to the not-here, not-serious, not emancipatory literature. Using old forms of storytelling are initially bad for any modernist and the word escapism has been heard quite a many times as well. And stuff like that...
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07-10-2007, 02:43 PM | #23 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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My definition of the "literati": Those who either write material that is painful to read, or those who exercise their influence to persuade us that such pain is "for our own good."
Nevertheless, I suspect that the overwhelming popularity of the Rowling books, not to mention the elevation of JRRT to "Author of the Century" by the reading public, bespeaks the ultimate failure and futility of the literati to drive the desire for fantasy from the public psyche. It smacks to me of drawing a circle, an "Inner Ring" to employ the same term used by C. S. Lewis, in an attempt to provoke people to some kind of jealousy of "not being on the inside." How many people (outside of school assignments) have read books in which they had no interest and from which they derived little pleasure, just to seem intelligent and witty in saying that they'd read them? I am reminded of an episode of "The Brady Bunch" (yes, I know how that dates me), in which 7-year-old Cindy, smarting from someone calling her "immature", comes home from the library lugging a weighty volume. Dad Brady sees her and naturally asks, "Whatcha readin'?" Cindy, nose elegantly elevated, replies "A Farewell To Arms, by Ernest Hemingway." Brother Greg, trying to be helpful, says "shouldn't you be reading Dr. Seuss?" Cindy haughtily snorts, "those are children's books!" before raising her nose another notch and flouncing off with her superority intact. Poor Cindy had been duped into thinking that admission to the inner circle (in this case, of "maturity") was to be had by reading things you don't want to read. However, Quote:
I don't know the real source of the quote, but Gene Wilder's Willy Wonka character said "A little nonsense now and then is treasured by the wisest men." I second that. Does anyone know if Tolkien's "On fairy Stories" is (legally) available on the Web? If so, please post a link -- it is something I've been meaning to read for years, but haven't had the rare combination of time, opportunity, or availability.
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07-10-2007, 03:07 PM | #24 |
Illustrious Ulair
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And yet it could be argued that 'once upon a time' all stories were 'fantasy' stories - myth, legend, fairytale & the like. Folkore is magical lore. I wonder whether its to do with the loss of belief in real magic. Once the whole world was magical, but for too many now it isn't. We have to escape into a secondary world where magic is real because its not real in the primary. Perhaps it was the enlightenment, & the drive to 'liberate' humanity from 'superstition'.
Whatever, 'magic' has been relegated to the 'nursery' or to 'children's books', & any book which posits the reality of magic is considered to be a 'children's book' by the 'literati' & teh 'educational establishment' . Its the subject matter alone which makes it a 'children's book' rather than the style or themes explored. Hence CoH is a 'children's book' - or at least a 'nerd's book' - because it contains Elves, a dragon & a hero with a magic sword despite the fact that it explores themes of pride, sacrifice & , of course, incest. The book cannot be taken seriously because a serious book would not contain Elves & dragons. That said, most of the stuff published as 'fantasy' literature is actually trash, & aimed at teenage boys & most writers of fantasy do aim their work at that audience. So it could be argued that the writers & publishers have a particular audience in mind & are themselves responsible for the kind of fantasy we get. I don't read fantasy, so I don't know how unique CoH is, but from the reviews I've read of it it seems it is far darker than the usual fare & many fantasy fans find it very uncomfortable reading. So, its not 'fantasy' per se that's the problem, but the kind of fantasy that's out there. However, it appears that all fantasy is judged by this 'bad', juvenile, trash - as if there is a belief that fantasy cannot be anything other than nerd literature. If a book is a fantasy novel it must be 'escapist nonsense', fit only for children, or adults with the mental age of children. Hence, rather than tell older children they should be reading (or writing) 'good', grown up, fantasy, they tell them that they should leave the fantasy books behind altogether. |
07-10-2007, 03:18 PM | #25 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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07-10-2007, 03:30 PM | #26 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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After reading davem's eloquent post I think I need to specify my last one a little. Those three examples I gave were from my point of view "bad arguments" but common... not ones I share myself.
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07-10-2007, 10:06 PM | #27 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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But Joyce was unlike Tolkien in that sense. Tolkien's style is deceptively simple and familiar, whereas Joyce's is deliberately dense and daunting. But the farther one goes, the further one gets a feeling of infinite corridors being opened in Tolkien's work, and suddenly nothing is simple or familiar. Hence, 'The Lord of the Rings' is always atop the reader's polls of great novels, while Joyce's novels tend to receive the critics' accolades on a comparative list. Like this one for instance... http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlib...estnovels.html Please note the inclusion of several fantasies on the reader's list (like LotR and Watership Down), as well as inclusions from the Science Fiction genre, whereas the critic's list is devoid of either (save for Huxley and Orwell, which are more political/social commentary and thus 'acceptable'). It is unfortunate, as davem so eloquently pointed out, that in the vast sea of mundane fantasy novels there are but few islands of true magic and profundity. The derisive term 'pulp' has long been a desriptor of the genre in general, and a brief perusal of the major book chains' fantasy aisles seems to bear that out. One could certainly say the same for the Science Fiction genre (for every Heinlein, Herbert or Asimov, there are hundreds of non-entities and thousands of throw-away Star Wars and Star Trek serializations). And regarding serializations, I think perhaps one problem with the fantasy genre is that authors with even nominal success are required to continue expanding their sub-created worlds beyond trilogies and tetralogies and septologies in imitation of Tolkien's standard. One wouldn't have gone up to William Golding and asked, "Hey, when's the sequel to 'Lord of the Flies' coming out?" (it is with much ironic humor that I remember an ill-fated attempt at offering a sequel to 'Gone With The Wind' a few years back ). Yet it seems there are fewer and fewer recent standalone fantasies of note being published.
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07-11-2007, 12:23 AM | #28 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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I've linked to this piece by Tom Simon previously, but I think its relevant here:
http://superversive.livejournal.com/49083.html Quote:
Which is not to say that here isn't very good fantasy out there - there always has been - but it seems that, unlike most literary genres, fantasy has become dominated by junk to such an extent that fantasy = junk not simply to the literati but also to the general reader. And I think its because fantasy is percieved as 'easy' - if its fantasy you can make up the rules, stick anything in there, make it as fantastical as you like - there are no 'rules'. Well that's the perception. And I wouldn't want any child of mine to read that kind of junk. Tolkien pointed out, though, that there have to be rules - particularly in fantasy: Quote:
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07-11-2007, 06:54 AM | #29 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Not an easy hurdle to overcome in a society held in thrall by a fast-food, immediate gratification, set-it-and-forget-it ethic. I suppose this comes down to individual choice and personal decisions, which, unfortunately, has led to 'American Idol' and resultant spin-offs being the most watched TV shows in the U.S. The manufacturing of 'pop stars' goes right along with the industrial proliferation of fantasy potboilers.
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07-11-2007, 08:07 AM | #30 | |
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Oh my! Between all this talk of bullying literati and dumbing down, why, I hardly dare know if I should admit to enjoying such as The Complete Works of William Shakespeare--Abridged. But seeing as its for the stage--always a tart--I suppose it can't be held against me.
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Both of those RandomHouse "100 Best" lists give me the giggles. Ayn Rand has four in the Top Ten and L. Ron Hubbard has three and Charles de Lint has seven overall but there's no Asimov in the Student list? And the list created by The New York Times readers is so perfect in hitting all the correct books for a University Syllabus in Modern Literature 301, complete with just the right touch of irony, sex, and social commitment-- it is positively suspicious as a send up. V.S. Naipaul is met by Salmon Rushdie--there's a good laugh. Really, both these groups are notorious for playing with words and so I wouldn't find their lists as evidence for anything other than, well, what we do here. I suppose the only place where fantasy is free of this pernicious conspiracy of fans, writers and publishers is on the Net. EDIT: I inserted the Merisu smilie after the Squatter one, but it doesn't appear on my post on my screen. I do hope others can see it.
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07-11-2007, 08:20 AM | #31 |
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Just a quick addendum.
I don't know whether Fantasy is judged to be junk, or relegated to children's literature because most of it is bad (& in the judgement of critics all of it is bad) or simply because it contains Elves, Dragons & dark lords. Perhaps it’s a combination of the two. Certainly there is a lot of junk churned out in all genres, but there isn't the same conviction that all crime, or all historical, novels are 'trash' just because a good deal of them are. So it does seem to be the subject matter that is the basis for this negative judgement. Which probably means that even if all fantasy was of the standard of Tolkien it would still be adjudged to be trash – which kind of negates my earlier point. It seems that fantasy is considered trash because its fantasy & is not judged on its 'quality' as fiction, because it is believed to be impossible for fantasy literature to have any quality. |
07-11-2007, 08:20 AM | #32 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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Before we glibly throw out the bathwater, let us make a cursory effort to extract the baby from it first.
You cannot say that all prose of "Form X", as exemplified by davem, Quote:
I read once, it might have been in high school "creative writing" class back in the paleolithic age, that there are only two real plots for all stories, which can be boiled down to the phrases "A stranger came to town" or "She got on the train." In other words, stories revolve around people's reactions to either something unfamiliar entering their familiar world, or something familiar (perhaps even precious?) being taken away. What is normal has been disturbed, and the events of the story relate to the establishment of a new equlibrium, usually involving great upheavals not foreseeable in the original event. It is not the plot formula that is selected but what is done with it that makes a book brilliant or trite -- from character development to creative plot elements to expert use of vocabulary. Of course there's more junk than jewels -- it's easier to create junk, and if junk pays, then why exert the extra effort required to create jewels? Only the dedication of brilliant minds like Tolkien's could impel him to craft Middle Earth in such exacting detail, and it is that detail that makes Middle Earth seem so comfortably *real* despite its fantastic elements. Another author, though perhaps adhering too closely to the basic plot davem so succinctly decried, could create a believable universe with memorable characters and sufficient plot diversions and diversity such that the resulting book might rise above the mucken mire of trite fantasy. But such an author will have to *work* to ensure that quality -- it doesn't come by osmosis. EDIT: Cross posted with davem and Bethberry -- some good points.
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07-11-2007, 11:24 AM | #33 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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An interesting discussion. Thanks all!
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But this academic taste seems also to catch the people’s minds outside the literature departments and academic journals as well. I’d say that the majority of the people with university education (humanistic, scientific, engineering, marketing, juristic, medical…) would answer just like the board of the Randomhouse poll shows even if they would never had studied literature or aesthetics or belonged to those circles. Not to say that they would have actually read the books they deem so worthy of praise. One thing all the people learn in Uni is that Uni is a respectable institution which has a priviledged position to the Truth. This might have a ring of truth in it regarding the “hard sciences” but with humanities it’s more difficult to see the inevitabliness of the claim. It’s as well a question of taste and of the position of the academics in the world we live in. For example many academics want to differentiate themselves from the commercial world and the values it carries with it and thence see their position in the opposite direction: what sells can’t be good, what entertains can’t be good, what is easily approached can’t be good etc. Just to defend the academics a bit in the end. Yes I fully agree with Bethberry about Shakespeare – and would go even further - I like the unabridged versions even more… As a non-native speaker I have never dared to approach Finnegan’s Wake (Proust is another one I have managed to duck as I know I should read it in French and that’s a challenge I’d not wish to take) but I kind of liked Joyce’s Ulysses and writers like Kafka, Beckett, Ionesco, Broch… I still hold them as my favourites. So arrogantly intellectual and elitist as they are. So why? Because they are geniuses! So as you Morthoron protested that your seven year old daughter could teach Paul Klee about perspective, I think you should reconsider. If anyone of you have seen some early works by say Picasso or Kandinsky you know what I mean. They really knew how to paint and they were masters in the art. They just decided consciously to do something completely different – and they had their reasons for it. Just read any of the theoretical discussions there is a wealth of by modern artists like Cézanne, Matisse, Kandinsky, Picasso, Leger, Malevich… you name it. Just an anecdote to sum up. Two years ago I was visiting my sis in London and took a decent walk in the National Gallery, walking through the whole museum in chronological order (it was hard to keep it all the time but I managed somewhat well). What made an impression on me beside the great paintings was the notion that the few self-evident truths of academic art history were in fact so true! So the renaissance really was something! It was like an explosion after the middle-ages (in which there is nothing wrong… there are great pieces of art there as well)! But then even bigger bang was the advent of modernism… how refreshing it was after centuries of doing the same nice thing all over and over again! It was like fresh air coming into the room in a hot day! So the literati aren’t always wrong or stupid and thence we should seek for the bad publicity of the fantasy also from other areas. Prejudiced the academics may be – and they are, trust me, I know enough of those people to say this – but there surely are other issues, like ones we have been talking here about… mass-producted moneymakers, lowest common denominator searchers, instant gratification seekers… I’d agree with Bethberry once again. Read Iain Banks - with M. in the middle or not!
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07-11-2007, 11:48 AM | #34 | |
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But is there any way around this? Will we ever see a time when 11 year olds aren't told to forget the fairies & write something 'gritty'? Are children always going to be forced out of faerie by 'well meaning' adults? |
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07-11-2007, 11:54 AM | #35 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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07-11-2007, 12:01 PM | #36 |
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So all we have to do is wait a few decades & LotR will be acceptable?
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07-11-2007, 12:01 PM | #37 | |
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07-11-2007, 12:16 PM | #38 |
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It occurs to me that Rowling hasn't suffered from the same venom as Tolkien has & I'm wondering whether this is because Rowling has 'done the proper thing' & written her fantasies for children. She hasn't had the 'temerity' to write adult fantasy. In fact the only real attacks I've come across in relation to the HP books are against adults reading them ( the 'adult cover' editions are considered to be condoning this 'sin).
So, fantasies for children are ok, but adults must treat them with contempt, or with a knowing wink as they read them to their children. EDIT I wonder whether Tolkien would have been more highly regarded by the Literati & the educational establishment if he'd stopped at The Hobbit? |
07-11-2007, 01:01 PM | #39 | |
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Now this business about fantasy not being suitable for grown-ups (with a kind of reverse X certificate attached) is odd as some fantasy is acceptable for grown-ups, indeed one Sir Rushdie has just been honoured for his magic realism. And Pan's Labyrinth was lauded to the hilt. You'll also find Angela Carter lurking on most University reading lists. So clearly, some fantasy works are more equal than others. Why not Tolkien's brand? Is it the fault of Tolkien or is it the fault of those who aped him and gave a bad impression? Is it our fault? That's likely - when at Uni I sought out Tolkien fans and nobody on my degree would admit to liking him apart from a couple of my delightfully mad tutors - quietly though, they had jobs to think about; amongst the students I found it was the unfashionable (at the time), ungainly students of science and engineering who liked their Elves and Dragons. It was the Goths, and the new-Hippies. Scallies too liked their Tolkien - young, working class, unemployed Scousers (there's a lot to be written about how Liverpool is Britain's lost city of dreamers and visionaries...) - I've had many mad all-night conversations with assorted Scousers about how Gandalf is Shamanic and the like. But notably NOT the young students of Literature and The Arts. In summary, Tolkien has had a serious Image Problem. Yet there's a curveball to throw into this whole topic... What about Tolkien himself? What would he have said, in his professional opinion? The public image of Tolkien doesn't exactly make a big deal out of the fact that he loved a lot of popular fiction himself (Asimov and H Rider Haggard, for example); instead it focuses on the more 'high-brow' stuff he liked. So his public image is that he spent his hours in reading sagas and the Eddas and Beowulf and the like... Why? We can't blame the literati for that image. Why has his love of the distinctly mass market, the bestseller, been buried? Are even Tolkien's biographers and critics, and fans, a little embarrassed by his own liking for popular fiction? It's like discovering Kurt Cobain was heavily into Tiffany...
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07-11-2007, 01:16 PM | #40 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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It's not only the years that will give the finishing touch to a future masterpiece but as the world changes the academic tastes will change as well... and I even think Tolkien is more and more appreciated in the academic circles as well. It's only that the academic fashions change slower than the mode of the boutiques. It's hard to see this current world with it's polarisation and casting things to good and evil without noticing the comeback of fantasy and historical epics. You can see the trend by looking at the box-office cinema hits for example... So there clearly is a social demand for this kind of stuff after all the anxiety and relativism given to us the last 20-30 years. Even as an admirer of Tolkien I'm not too sure how gladly I look at this cultural transformation though. There are a lot of things that I deem valuable, like tolerance, multiculturalism, human rights not depending on race or sharing a tradition... which are heading for the gallows both here in the west and in the islamist east. These times of needing to take side bring forwards the heroes and the villains, the dragon-slayers and the Wormtongues... and the ladies one should rescue with chivalric action not caring about the means as it is the virtue of the hero and not the universal shared morality of tolerance that governs things... Gah, sorry to be this depressive....
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