Denethor's plunge

[MatthewM]

Does anybody else find it to be a little bit of a stretch that Denethor would actually be able to run out of his pyre ablaze and just hop right off the edge of the Seventh level? I just realized the distance that it showed he ran while fully ablaze. Haha...I never liked how they made him do that.

[The Might]

I dunno what is worse - that he made it so far, or that he doesn't burn himself in the Hallows
Of course it's a spectacular image to see him falling down from the Seventh Level while Minas Tirith is under siege.

[Knight of Gondor]

Yeah, that was probably one of the dumbest changes that PJ made. You make a good point about distance, too. From the Silent Street all the way to the end of the high point was probably a distance of about 1/4 mile. All while on fire. I suppose one might use the hardiness of a pure Numenorian as an excuse, but that would be stretching it.

[ninja91]

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

[Sir Kohran]

Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with.

And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that).

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ninja91

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

'Cause Boromir is the man. Enough said! Denethor's a great guy too...but hey, it just doesn't seem possible that a man can run so far fully ablaze.

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with.

And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that).

I gotta disagree. If you're wearing a robe, and it gets set ablaze, you're going to burn with it. It's not like the flames say "oh let's just chill on this guy's robe"

Everyone see's the scene differently, but for me it was just wasn't necessary. To be honest, since PJ kind of made Denethor some what of a "bad guy", when I first saw the scene in theatres I thought he put it there for comic relief. Now THAT's bad!

[Celegost]

He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire

what the............?

[Celegost]

He's wearing a full chainmail hauberk so maybe that offered some protection

[radagastly]

Denethor's accuracy seems even less plausible to me than the distance. I suspect if you were engulfed in flame, even if you kept your wits about (an unlikely prospect, even for a "pure Numenorean,") you would simply find it hard to see through the flames and smoke. And that's assuming that your eyes were not yet damaged from the heat, cooked through or whatever. And yet Denethor manages to make his way across the courtyard, avoiding the tinder-dry White Tree, not to mention the quenching pool of water over which it hangs, and acheive a perfect launch off the exact prow, like an out-take from "Titanic:"

"I'm flying, Jack! I'm f . . aaaaaagh!"
Cue the Canadian singer.

Still, I have to admit that the long shot of him falling into the battle as the Rohirrim gathered on the hilltop was very dramatic.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

funny how none of the gaurds even tried to stop and put him out.

[ninja91]

Are we going to have to do an experiment? If you guys pay me $100, you can light me on fire and see how far I can go.






























I'm joking.

[Folwren]

Hm. I never considered the distance he'd have to run. I never liked the part in the movie. When he does it in the book, he's so cool about it... Not cool, wrong word, I mean, he's so brave about it.

I would probably say that it was impossible. Have you ever burnt your finger on a stove or something? I don't know about you, but I hop around the kitchen, waving my hand in pain, and after ten seconds, have the wits to run to the sink and stick it under the faucet. Okay, okay, okay, so maybe that's a little bit exagerated, but it's tough to move sensibly. I can't imagine what my body would be doing while my mind was consumed in pain while I was fully engulfed in flames.

But, really, I know nothing about it. That's only my opinion, and it may not be very intelligent.

[alatar]

The first few layers of skin burnt from the Steward rather quickly, leaving him in so much agony that the pain center in his brain shut down and went home for the day. Purportedly there is evidence that when an animal (and possibly human) is in pain and about to die that the body can shut off the pain (why bother sending the message) or send in enough endorphines to smooth things over.

Also, we may want to test the effect of a large intact of tomatoes has on one's flame retardance and running speed (Don't be stupid, by the by). And, one may think that the flames reduced the Steward's mass, making it a little easier to run, and the flames surely gave some lift as well (hot air rising and all).

But in the end methinks that, at that last moment, Denethor finally came to his senses, left despair behind and ran out to due his duty, diving for a Battle Troll.

[Celegost]

If youve got a chainmail hauberk and a life-sized replica of Minas Tirith,
yeah!

[Knight of Gondor]

Your post is a delightful mix of reason and insanity. I would agree that our mind may not process the pain if we're experiencing it to extremes, but that doesn't undo the actual damage done. Flames severe enough to burn away layers of skin would be severe enough to be incapacitating.

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

I would say he was...haha

By the way, on a serious note, on this day in Middle-earth (March 15th) Denethor burnt himself on the pyre. Alas for Denethor!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I would agree that our mind may not process the pain if we're experiencing it to extremes, but that doesn't undo the actual damage done. Flames severe enough to burn away layers of skin would be severe enough to be incapacitating.

It's noted that third degree burns are not painful; however, there would be associated 1st and 2nd degree, so...

The biggest problem I can see is holding one's breath for the amount of time it takes to run from Rath Dínen to the wall outside the Citadel. Those flames are going to drink oxygen from any nearby source, and that would include lungs. We can assume that Denethor, having traveled the path many times, could run the distance without sight (for whatever reason), but without air? Even if he were an Olympic speedster, that would take about a minute, and a long minute that would be.

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

Really? Why else the effort?

"In later days, when at the end of a long day, in the tavens a man might order a 'Flaming Steward,' and drink a salute to Denethor the Brave, he who gave all at the end in the defense of his city, as commemorated by the eternal flaming stature (see attached) standing inside the Gate of Minas Tirith, where the Last Steward fell, felling a foul foe in his fall."

[Celegost]

He He He....funny picture

[Essex]

of course PJ's rath dinen could have been directly under where we see denethor run - and a little tunnel that brings him up just outside the sheer drop off the edge.

and what always amuses me is that we moan about things not being physically possible i.e. denethor's run / gandalf catching up with the balrog etc, but we don't mind the fact that wearing a ring can make you invisible!!!!

[Celegost]

I agree....who cares about the science? And yes, there could have been a tunnel/stairs/extra fast escalator....

[alatar]

Gandalf was in the vicinity with Narya, and do we know just how far a member of the Mearas can kick one of noble blood? Every little bit helps...

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Essex

of course PJ's rath dinen could have been directly under where we see denethor run - and a little tunnel that brings him up just outside the sheer drop off the edge.

and what always amuses me is that we moan about things not being physically possible i.e. denethor's run / gandalf catching up with the balrog etc, but we don't mind the fact that wearing a ring can make you invisible!!!!

I have photographic proof that that would be, as the immortal Vizzini said, inconceivable, in fact that the entire run of Denethor would be completely and totally inconceivable!


Overhead shot of the pinnacle of Gondor.


Photo demonstration of the length of the across the courtyard.


Distance of the bridge Denethor would have needed to run.


Better shot showing the incredible length of the bridge to Rath Dínen, as well as showing Denethor would have had to run up some flights of steps!


Final shot showing the path Denethor traversed to get to the tip and launch himself into a flaming oblivion.

From these pictures, IT IS CLEAR THAT DENETHOR COULD NOT HAVE MADE THIS LONG-DISTANCE SPRINT WHILE AFLAME. This dash would have taken him at least three minutes to make, counting his trip back through the hallways leading back to the Silent Street, the long bridge, the flights of stairs and the courtyard.

Conclusion? The guy made it back to the courtyard and doused himself in the water by the tree. However, Shadowfax (having not yet fully exacted his equine vengance) chased him down with a torch and reignited him, leaving the sprightly Steward no choice but to vault himself over the edge.

Plan B Conclusion: Nazgul (not Witchking) picked Denethor up and carried him a piece before putting him down because its claws were getting scorched.

[davem]

Don't know if it helps, but using Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, which is noted for its accuracy, the distance from the Hallows to the Minas Tirith 'Precipice Viewpoint' is approx 3 miles & involves a climb (as has been noted) from the fifth to the seventh levels. This being impossible one must suspect that it is not actually Denethor who is seen falling but one of his guards.

It seems that the most logical conclusion is that Denethor was grabbed by one of his guards just outside the Hallows, who attempted to extinguish the flames. Said guard, tragically, caught fire himself & in his panic left the dying Steward & fled looking for help. He in turn ran into another guard who attempted to put him out & suffered the same fate as his colleague. This event was repeated a number of times & left all Denethor's personal guard dead along the three miles distance. A kind of horrific 'relay', where the flames were passed along from guard to guard.

This tragic event was commemorated in later years by the famous 'Minas Tirith Relay Run' involving a flaming baton being passed by runners starting at Rath Dinen & culminating in the igniting of a Dummy at the edge of the 'Precipice Viewpoint' being set alight & catapulted off the edge, to fall into the great Courtyard before the gates at the First Level.

'The Fall of the 100th Guard Festival' as it came to be known was originally celebrated every ten years at midnight on the anniversary of Denethor's death & became so famous throughout Middle-earth that travellers of all races would come from across the length & breadth of Middle-earth to witness the spectacle, crowding the streets & spending lots of money.

Unfortunately, the popularity (& the resulting cash benefit for the city) lead first of all to the festival being increased to once in five years, then annually & finally to every Saturday night. Drunkenness & general rowdyness increased to the point that locals began to complain about the 'yobs invading our lovely city & making a nuissance of themselves' & many visitors who couldn't wait for the official event would sneak up to the Viewpoint & throw their own home made dummies off the top. This resulted in two main problems which eventually lead to the event being cancelled - first, flaming dummies would pile up in the courtyard, making access into the city a difficult thing, & secondly, the Burns Unit of the Houses of Healing found they couldn't cope with the numbers of locals & visitors who fund themselves on the receiving end of a flaming dummy hitting them from 5,000 feet. It became a bit of a sick joke among some of the locals, who began making & selling tunics emblazoned with the legend 'I went to Minas Tirith for the 'The Fall of the 100th Guard Festival' & all I got was these lousy third degree burns'. An attempt to make Dwarf sized tunics emblazoned with 'I was a burned Dwarf' failed miserably & lead to the violent murders of a number of tunic vendors at the hands of angry dwarves.

In the end it was decided that for the public good the event would cease & the 'official' version of events was declared to be that Denethor had burned to death in Rath Dinen, no guards had perished in flames & that none of the above had actually happened. Tourism in Gondor suffered but the locals bore it stoically (apart from the tunic printers, who raised a riot on hearing the official declaration of the end of the festival & attacked the local Civil Servants, dragging them from their offices (coincidentally on the Fifth level) all along the route to the edge of the Viewpoint, setting many of them on fire & hurling them off the edge, in a desperate attempt to start up another 'tradition'. The rioters claimed that this was a spontaneous outburst of anger, but the discovery of a batch of tunics emprinted with the legend '1st Weekly 'Fall of the Flaming Civil Servants' (who weren't set on fire & pushed over the edge by the Tunic Printers Guild of Minas Tirith & anyone who says they did it are liars because we were all somewhere else doing other stuff & it was most probably the pressure of the job which lead to a mass sucide on their part) Commemoration Festival' was seen as proof positive that the whole thing had been planned.

Initially there was a demand by the survivng colleagues of the dead Civil Servants that the Tunic Printers should suffer the same fate as their own colleagues & be dragged up to the Viewpoint & ignited & catapulted from the edge (they were working on their own tunic designs but took so long to come up with a legend they could all agree on, submitting various versions, in triplicate, to their immediate & senior managers, bringing in third party consultants to 'think outside the box', advertising managers to choose the most effective colours & fonts for the lettering, that in the end nothing came of it, & the whole thing faded into blessed obscurity & everyone went back to what they had done before the whole thing had gotten so far out of hand.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Ah, cynicality is the spice of life, is it not, Davem?

'Cause Boromir is the man.

Okay, but Denethor is his father, thus Denethor having two children would inevitably split the man-ness (albiet in Boromir's favour) between the two. So Denethor's wife (who's name escapes me at this moment in time) had a significant contribution to the manliness. This raises some questions about her!

Perhaps instead of being born the-man, Boromir achieved the-man, or indeed had the-man thrust upon him?

I'm rambling here people..

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by davem

This being impossible one must suspect that it is not actually Denethor who is seen falling but one of his guards.

So what you're saying is, Elvis could still be alive???

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

So Denethor's wife (who's name escapes me at this moment in time) had a significant contribution to the manliness. This raises some questions about her!

Finduilas.

[alatar]

Have we considered that fire may have not even been real?

When Gandalf begged Saruman for information outside Orthanc, Saruman sent down a fireball to the new White Wizard. Gandalf astride Shadowfax was unharmed by the blast, and so:

• Gandalf is able to create a cloak of sorts that protects those so covered from fire, yet permits the fire to burn as it would on the outside, or

• Gandalf saw the fire for what it was, just another mind trick. Saruman's voice did not fool Gandalf, and though the others saw the flames, Gandalf did not and so was unharmed. There is precedent in at least two Star Trek episodes (original and NextGen), as well as in the 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' movie, and so I feel that I'm on solid ground here.

So were the flames that burned Denethor real? Did Gandalf cloak him, to protect the Steward in his madness, but the Steward ran off before Gandalf could continue to thump him senseless? Or, did Gandalf, a quick study, learn the spell from Saruman and decide that the Steward needed a lesson, thinking that the burned hand teaches best? Again, Gandalf may have started it off with good intentions, yet did not think that Denethor would take so long a dive.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Honestly? Before RotK:EE, I thought the Movie!Hallows were situated right behind the Steward's chair in the Hall, or thereabouts.
Then EE came along, and the guards carried Faramir for about a mile back to the Hallows, and I thought... Wait a minute... The Leap of the Flaming Steward is totally impossible! Any of the above situations (Nazgul, Shadowfax, guard aid) seem more plausible than Denethor doing a three-minute mile while aflame.

And honestly? again? I thought the Leap of the Flaming Steward was cheezy. After the beautiful father-son moment in the Hallows, Denny had to go and ruin it all by getting us yet another long pan-out of Minas Tirith.
As if we hadn't gotten enough with Gandalf/Pippin's ride in.

[Essex]

notice the 'steps' just behind the flaming denethor in Knight of Gondor's last picture?

You see, that was the tradesmen's entrance and exit to the Hallows in Movie Middle-earth. All that walking around just leads them back to a point underneath where we see Denethor run in flames. - a quick run up some stpes and then out over the side.

And anyway, Denthor survived the fall. It obviously gave him a Russian accent, put about 4 stones on him and transported him to the Russian Embassy to have one of his fingers cut off by a CTU agent. (If you can believe he run that long from Rath Dinen then you can believe that!)

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Have we considered that fire may have not even been real?

I do not think this is plausible. The fire brought by the (senseless) guards was real enough. Pippin feared for Faramir's life because of the flames. And Denethor's groaning in pain couldn't be just put on.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Have we considered that fire may have not even been real?

When Gandalf begged Saruman for information outside Orthanc, Saruman sent down a fireball to the new White Wizard. Gandalf astride Shadowfax was unharmed by the blast, and so:

• Gandalf is able to create a cloak of sorts that protects those so covered from fire, yet permits the fire to burn as it would on the outside, or

• Gandalf saw the fire for what it was, just another mind trick. Saruman's voice did not fool Gandalf, and though the others saw the flames, Gandalf did not and so was unharmed. There is precedent in at least two Star Trek episodes (original and NextGen), as well as in the 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' movie, and so I feel that I'm on solid ground here.

So were the flames that burned Denethor real? Did Gandalf cloak him, to protect the Steward in his madness, but the Steward ran off before Gandalf could continue to thump him senseless? Or, did Gandalf, a quick study, learn the spell from Saruman and decide that the Steward needed a lesson, thinking that the burned hand teaches best? Again, Gandalf may have started it off with good intentions, yet did not think that Denethor would take so long a dive.

Oh, gosh, I've just thought of something that might relate to fire things. I think we have a precedent of some sort here.

Moses is reported as seeing the Lord speaking to him out of a burning bush. I seem to recall that the bush was not consumed. So, I'm not sure if the bush or the fire was actually doing the speaking, but something along the lines of imperishable was part of the story.

So, in the hands of lesser writers than those of Holy Writ, we could have the Steward speaking to us out of flames and not being consumed. Thus we would be able to conjecture a very long run on the part of Denethor (whoops, almost wrote Denimthor there) unhampered by the flames.

This would suggest that PJ and the other filmic writers have a unique understanding of Flame Imperishable in Tolkien's works. Or else they are suggesting something about Denethor's sense of himself as having proportions almost approaching that of a deity.

[davem]

It is of course possible that the flames were an optical illusion. We know Denethor wore armour under his robes, so it is possible that the flames of the Pyre simply burned off the robes & that the 'flames' were actually a reflection of the fires burning the lower levels of the city. Freak atmospheric conditions could have easily produced this effect (as any fule kno this is the well known 'Molesworth effect' - named after the famous Prof. Molesworth, Old Boy of St Custard's skool, & formulated after a series of experiments involving a flamethrower & his long suffering assistant, one Fotherington-Thomas.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I do not think this is plausible. The fire brought by the (senseless) guards was real enough.

Sure, the fire was real, but was the fire that engulfed the running Steward real? In the scene where Shadowfax attacks Denethor, the film makers realized that the real horse would be afraid of the real flames. Virtual flames were tried, but didn't look real enough, and so a mirror was used - watch the Appendix material on the DVDs for more.

Anyway, so real flames appeared to be cooking Faramir, yet actually were elsewhere. Could Denethor's flames also be illusionary in the same manner? Gandalf did use a white light to chase off the Nazzies once on the Pelennor Fields, and so we can assume that he had knowledge of optics.

Pippin feared for Faramir's life because of the flames. And Denethor's groaning in pain couldn't be just put on.

Pippin was mostly concerned that his wardrobe's future prospects were protected. And, speaking of Pippin, I too groaned in pain when the hobbit and his partner bounced on Frodo's bed later in the movie, yet I wasn't on fire (though may have wished that it were so).

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Or else they are suggesting something about Denethor's sense of himself as having proportions almost approaching that of a deity.

But Denethor was consumed, both physically and mentally. And even the memory of the Leaping Steward of Fire will burn out eventually.

So, I'm not sure if the bush or the fire was actually doing the speaking,

No one reported any last words from the Steward, flaming or not, after he hit the ground, or at least more than "whoop!"

Originally Posted by davem

We know Denethor wore armour under his robes, so it is possible that the flames of the Pyre simply burned off the robes & that the 'flames' were actually a reflection of the fires burning the lower levels of the city.

Think that it would depend on what he wore under the armour. We bought a stainless steel tea kettle, more for looks than utility (who drinks tea?), and I've burned my fingers more than once when grabbing the steel handle, as the metal conducts heat rather well. If Denethor wore dish towels or a garment made of oven mitts under his steel rings, then he may have survived the initial fire well enough to run with the illusionary one as far as he did.

Freak atmospheric conditions...

In the world of Middle Earth, one only wonders what would be considered freak atmospheric conditions...

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Think that it would depend on what he wore under the armour. We bought a stainless steel tea kettle, more for looks than utility (who drinks tea?), and I've burned my fingers more than once when grabbing the steel handle, as the metal conducts heat rather well. If Denethor wore dish towels or a garment made of oven mitts under his steel rings, then he may have survived the initial fire well enough to run with the illusionary one as far as he did.

It is a little know fact of Middle-earth history that Denethor was a bit of a fashion icon & began the short lived trend of wearing asbestos underwear. This accounts for his lack of fear at being around smokers like Gandalf, whose pipe tended to spew out large sparks when he got angry, igniting unwary bystanders. Gandalf usually explained this as the result of the Secret Fire but nobody believed him. In actual fact the story of Denethor lighting his & Faramir's pyre in a final desperate act of self immolation was Gandalf's own invention (supported by Pippin): the truth was that Denethor had taken the feverish Faramir to the Hallows because it was the coolest place in the city & Gandalf pursued him there to steal his underwear for protection among the fires raging on the First Level (Gandalf's exact words being, as reported by a drunken Pippin many years later, 'I need his pants more than he does!!'). In the angry confrontation that ensued sparks from Gandalf's pipe ignited the sheets on Faramir's bier which Denethor in a last, desperate act of fatherly devotion attempted to extinguish. This lead to Denethor's cloak & tunis bursting into flame. The Steward was of course immune to harm due to his protective undergarments & on seeing that Pippin had put out the fire, made a run for it with Gandalf in hot pursuit crying out to the guards to stop the fleeing Steward in the now infamous words 'Stop that man & remove his pants & vest!! I have a battle to fight!!'

Denethor managed to avoid the stunned guards & run out to the court of the Fountain where he hoped to extinguish the flames & steal a horse & make for his summer residence in the vales of Lebennin, but Gandalf was too close behind & Denethor chose Death rather than dishonour & hurled himself from the pinacle with the cry 'You'll have to pry them from my cold, dead botty!'

Thus perished Denethor son of Ecthelion......

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

you have forgotten one thing tho, Denethor was a track star.

[Elfchick7]

hahahaha

These post are so funny! The scene of Denethor's plunge was undoubtedly an absurd one.

I remember seeing it for the first time and thinking, "What the heck!?!!"

[calandil]

hey guys,
give pj a break!!
the image of of denethor falling of the 7th level is one of the most iconic images of the movie!
it would not have looked good if he just fell dead in the room,eh?
there is also the case of cinematic license!

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by calandil

hey guys,
give pj a break!!
the image of of denethor falling of the 7th level is one of the most iconic images of the movie!
it would not have looked good if he just fell dead in the room,eh?
there is also the case of cinematic license!

I agree. You cant film anything without making some enemies. And that is just how it is in the film world. Its a win-lose situation. Either make the movie follow the film exactly, and lose some interested newbies (at the same time even boring some), or add and cut some of the books to fit the film, and bring a flood of people to Tolkien's world (like the movies did to me.) I understand where everyone dissatisfied with the movies is coming from. But nothing is always perfect.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

hey guys,
give pj a break!!
the image of of denethor falling of the 7th level is one of the most iconic images of the movie!
it would not have looked good if he just fell dead in the room,eh?
there is also the case of cinematic license!

Oh, come on! The palantir clasped between his hands, withering in flame? The collapse of the House of Stewards dome in a rush of flame? What wonderful, horrific visual drama!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

'Cause Boromir is the man. Enough said! Denethor's a great guy too...but hey, it just doesn't seem possible that a man can run so far fully ablaze.




Everyone see's the scene differently, but for me it was just wasn't necessary. To be honest, since PJ kind of made Denethor some what of a "bad guy", when I first saw the scene in theatres I thought he put it there for comic relief. Now THAT's bad!

I gotta agree cause Denethor wasn't bad he was just slightly cracked, and wouldn't you be too if you just found out that your favourate son had just died, AND your country is being over taken by the dark lord?

[Elmo]

...and you had epic mind contests with the dark lord