Elf Rights Watch needed? Yet again a new Míriel thread!

[Thinlómien]

A while ago I read HoME XII: Peoples of Middle-Earth, and was greatly troubled by one passage.

Originally Posted by The Shibboleth of Fëanor; The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME XII

So it came to pass that Finwë and Indis desired to be wedded, and Finwë sought the counsel of the Valar.
The long debate that they held on the matter may be passed over briefly. They were obliged to choose between two courses: condemning Finwë to bereavement of a wife for ever, or allowing one of the Eldar to take a second wife. The former seemed a cruel injustice, and contrary to the nature of the Eldar. the second they had thought unlawful, and some still held to that opinion. The end of the debate was that the marriage of Finwë and Indis was sanctioned. It was judged that Finwë's bereavement was unjust, and by persisting in her refusal to return Míriel had forfeited all rights that she had in the case; for either she was now capable of accepting the healing of her body by the Valar, or else her fëa was mortally sick and beyond their power, and she was indeed 'dead', no longer capable of becoming again a living member of the kindred of the Eldar.
"So she must remain to the end of the world. For from the moment that Finwë and Indis are joined in marriage all future change and choice will be taken from her and she will never again be permitted to take a bodily shape. Her present body will swiftly wither and pass away, and the Valar will not restore it. For none of the Eldar may have two wives both alive in the world." These were the words of Manwë, and an answer to the doubts that some had felt. For it was known to all the Valar that they alone had the power to heal or restore the body for the re-housing of a fëa that should in the later chances of the world be deprived; but that to Manwë also was given the right to refuse the return of the fëa.

Now what bugs me here is that Míriel defined only in relation to her husband, not as an independent being. I understand the Eldar's love life and marriage was very different from the human's, but this just seems grotesque. Because Míriel's husband wishes to remarry, she is denied the chance of "repenting" and changing her mind and coming back. I don't think this is morally right. Míriel persisted she did not wish to return, but what if she had just needed more time? This somehow reminds me of capital punishment. If something goes wrong, there's no way to fix it. (Capital punishment - if the "criminal" is found innocent after his/her death, denial of returning to life - if Míriel had wished to come back.) Both horrify me in their definity.

Is it a bigger grief if Finwë's to be without a wife to the end of time than Míriel's "dead" to the end of time? I think the latter one much worse, and I think the Valar were wrong here. Míriel's family and friends surely were much grieved of the Valar's decision. The concept of death with no chance of return was not something that belonged to Elven life. Realising Míriel will never be able to come back, even if she wanted, must have been a horrible strike to those close to her. Had Míriel been human, the matter would have been different. Humans do die without coming back, Elves don't.

Shortly, what I'm saying is
1. The Valar made a wrong and unjust decision. Only if the Valar had been 100% sure that Míriel is not willing or able to come back ever, they would have been morally been right to do that, in my opinion.
2. Míriel caused some of this herself, I agree, but I don't think she deserves this treatment.
3. Sorry Finwë... If the Valar had done it the way I would have done it, you'd either have been with no wife 'til the end of time, or have had to do sometime without a wife (the time it takes 'til Míriel comes back). - Well, your fault for fathering such a mother-withering son! -
4. If Finwë, Indis (and partly Míriel) are to blame of the marring of Arda, we should add the Valar to that list, at least according to Peoples of Middle-Earth.

I'd be glad to her your thoughts on this. I'm sure some of you will disagree with me, quite strongly even. Please fire away!

[Břicho]

I had never read this excerpt before.

I conclude(not having any "HoME" at my disposal) that they were confronted with Finwe's grief and simply were not prepared for it; neither they, and maybe not most of the Elves in Valinor at that time had ever had to deal with such a thing.



Or maybe they somehow knew that Miriel's spirit had indeed been "mortally harmed" and she'd never come back.

[Mithalwen]

Lommy, I think this is gone in do in more detail in Morgoth's ring. I think it is the next essay to Laws and Customs of the Eldar and the various arguments are made. Not certain but I will check for you unless someone confirms or disproves in the meantime....

[Lalwendë]

Lommy, this is a very good question, even if it's a thorny one. I'll just quote what it says of this in the Silmarillion:

Miriel was the name of his mother, who was called Serinde, because of her surpassing skill in weaving and needlework; for her hands were more skilled to fineness than any hands even among the Noldor. The love of Finwe and Miriel was great and glad, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor.'

Then Finwe was grieved, for the Noldor were in the youth of their days, and he desired to bring forth many children into the bliss of Aman; and he said: 'Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest.' But when Miriel languished still, Finwe sought the counsel of Manwe, and Manwe delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lorien. At their parting (for a little while as he thought) Finwe was sad, for it seemed an unhappy chance that the mother should depart and miss the beginning at least of the childhood days of her son.
'It is indeed unhappy,' said Miriel, 'and I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after.'

She went then to the gardens of Lorien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos. The maidens of Este tended the body of Miriel, and it remained unwithered; but she did not return. Then Finwe lived in sorrow; and he went often to the gardens of Lorien, and sitting beneath the silver willows beside the body of his wife he called her by her names. But it was unavailing; and alone in all the Blessed Realm he was deprived of joy. After a while he went to Lorien no more.

and

Now it came to pass that Finwe took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwe the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Miriel. Finwe' loved her greatly, and was glad again. But the shadow of Miriel did not depart from the house of Finwe, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought.

The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Feanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Feanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwe', judging that if Finwe' had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Feanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwe is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves. But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.

Now we have both passages close to one another in the thread it's easy to compare what was published and what was not.

What we read in the Silmarillion is very different. It is much more subtle. The Valar do not come into it so there is no thorny argument with their conception of what is moral. Miriel does not have to make a 'choice', and nor does Finwe; she simply fades away. Nor does Finwe's love for her fade away. He is also able to marry again with no judgement from on high. The only 'moral' judgement which comes to pass is Feanor's displeasure, and even this we may take as a result of a moral misdemeanour or as simply a characteristic of Feanor, according to taste.

What is in the Silmarillion is so much more acceptable.

However what is in the Shibboleth is at the very least dodgy, and had it been published as part of the authorised story, would have been like hurling a grenade. For one, the Valar are enabled to take decisions in personal and sexual matters for the Elves - and we'd have to ask where their free will was? And what Eru might have had to say about this interference? We have to ask how she could be made to be 'dead' if she was an Elf. We have to ask if she could be held to moral account for something which came as a result of childbirth - something which would be supremely dodgy not only in our world but in any world. And we have to ask what this would have said about the balance of power between male and female in Tolkien's world. I suspect the answers would not have been very pleasant at all, and I'm glad he had the sense not to publish this.

Going to have to go and see if there are any footnotes from CT now...

[Mithalwen]

I think the moral lapse of Miriel is in her refusal to hope for healing or to consider rebirth and not try, thus abandoningher child with such disastrous consequences .

[davem]

Miriel's 'sin' is equivalent to that of the Numenoreans. They reject the gift of Eru to Men, desiring an escape from death. She desires an escape from life. The fate of both is the same effectively - removal from existence.

The point is that both Elves & Men have an obligation to follow the rules of their nature & must face the consequences of willful refusal. Miriel, if she is capable of returning to life, has no right not to. Hence she either cannot return to a full life in the world, or she is essentially breaking the 'Law'. As the Valar have an obligation to uphold the Law they were put into a difficult situation. Finwe's claim was legitimate (ie within the Law) Miriel's demand was not.

Or, from another point of view, such an event could not escape the attention of the Valar - they had to be involved in some way, & have the final say in what happened. Of course, Tolkien could have changed the story, but that would have changed Feanor's character & motivation as given. So, Miriel must be 'replaced' by Indis & the Valar must play a major part in what happens, because they could not be left out of it. Finwe marries Indis & thus we get the spark of the whole drama of the rebellion in the devastating effect this event has on Feanor.

Thus Tolkien must construct a justifcation for what happens which includes the Valar, & we get the account given in the Shibboleth.

Note, Tolkien does not say he approves of what the Valar did - merely that that is what they did, that what they did was based on the Rules of the World which Miriel broke. We may sympathise with Miriel's plight (we may also sympathise with what drove the Numenoreans - they didn't want to die) but what she wanted was against the Rules, & the obligation she had as an incarnate. It seems to me that Finwe effectively backed the Valar into a corner & demanded a decision one way or another. The Valar's decision may not strike us as either fair or politically correct, but it is certainly according to the Rules which bound them as well as the Elves.

Its also pretty clear that Feanor was just as offended as most of us, & probably played major part in his anger against the Valar. He too felt the decision was wrong.

[Lalwendë]

Reading on in the Shibboleth it is presented that the Valar simply could not decide if remarriage was allowable. The decision came down on the side that it was, but only if Miriel agreed never to take form again as long as the world lasted. This is all framed within Finwe's discovery of another woman and his wish to marry her.

Hmm, an analogy from History may be made with Henry VIII's wish to marry Anne Boleyn after Catherine of Aragon became menopausal and unable to bear him sons; like Catherine, Miriel is expected to fade into the background and allow her husband to take a newer, younger wife. Of course Henry VIII's actions had immense consequences, and so do Finwe's. And that would also mean the Valar are rather like Henry's Protestant advisers. Interesting.

But back to the Shibboleth, there is another dimension. Feanor is presented as very much in the wrong for not accepting the judgement visited on his mother, and it is presented that his refusal to stop greiving and accept his new step-mother and step-brothers is morally wrong. This is quite dodgy.

The dodgiest part though is not that Miriel cannot accept her nature as an Elf and be healed, but that it seems she is at that time incapable of being healed, she is 'as dead'. But not actually dead, and the Valar decide that in order for Finwe to get his new bit of stuff (for that's how Indis seems, someone who secretly lusts after Finwe even when his marriage is happy), she must accept that she will be eternally 'dead' no matter what her thought may be as the years pass. Bit harsh, expecting someone to die so that her husband can remarry! This also makes me think of situations where a wife becomes disabled and her husband may seek to remarry as he cannot cope with it; or even more so, of situations of euthanasia.

Makes you wonder if Galadriel was allowed to have it away with Celebrimbor after she left Celeborn in Middle-earth...

[Aiwendil]

Daven wrote:

Miriel's 'sin' is equivalent to that of the Numenoreans. They reject the gift of Eru to Men, desiring an escape from death. She desires an escape from life. The fate of both is the same effectively - removal from existence.

Meseems their fates are actually very different. We do not know what happens to the Numenoreans, since we do not know what happens to humans after death; but we do know that they were removed from Arda (not necessarily from existence). Miriel is not even removed from Arda - her spirit goes to Mandos while her body lies in Lorien. But this is not the end of the tale (see HoMe X): later, after Finwe is killed, Miriel is granted permission to leave Mandos, on the condition that Finwe remain there. This she does, returning to her body and later becoming the chief handmaid of Vaire.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Daven wrote:


Meseems their fates are actually very different. We do not know what happens to the Numenoreans, since we do not know what happens to humans after death; but we do know that they were removed from Arda (not necessarily from existence). Miriel is not even removed from Arda - her spirit goes to Mandos while her body lies in Lorien. But this is not the end of the tale (see HoMe X): later, after Finwe is killed, Miriel is granted permission to leave Mandos, on the condition that Finwe remain there. This she does, returning to her body and later becoming the chief handmaid of Vaire.

Well, they were both removed from physical existence in the world, either temporarily or permanently, & I think this is significant. They are 'removed' from participation. The other significant thing, perhaps, is when the various versions were written. This might be useful for examining the different versions & how Tolkien's thought changed

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Daven wrote:


Meseems their fates are actually very different. We do not know what happens to the Numenoreans, since we do not know what happens to humans after death; but we do know that they were removed from Arda (not necessarily from existence). Miriel is not even removed from Arda - her spirit goes to Mandos while her body lies in Lorien. But this is not the end of the tale (see HoMe X): later, after Finwe is killed, Miriel is granted permission to leave Mandos, on the condition that Finwe remain there. This she does, returning to her body and later becoming the chief handmaid of Vaire.

I've just been reading this.

Incidentally, page 237 of HoME X gives a much more gentle picture of this story - Finwe asks Manwe if something might be done; Manwe decides to ask Miriel and she says she would like to remain where she is and asks that Finwe be allowed to remarry. Here too, the great debate takes place afterwards and it is more about the implications of what has happened, than a decision on what to do.

But back to what Aiwendil says. This is again much more palatable in many ways. And of course what would the Valar have done when Finwe came to Mandos? That would have been a sticky old mess.

I get the feeling that as this was all drafted in the 50s, with the express purpose of working through these concepts and plot/philosophy issues, whereas the Shibboleth was written in the late 60s with the purpose of looking at language, the 'word' on this issue should be taken as the earlier drafts.

[Thinlómien]

Good points everyone, especially Lal and davem.

I agree that the version in Silmarillion is much subtler, and I must say I prefer it to the Shibboleth, though the latter is very interesting with it's moral dilemmas.

Originally Posted by Lal

Makes you wonder if Galadriel was allowed to have it away with Celebrimbor after she left Celeborn in Middle-earth...

I don't have HoME XII here right now, but I just started to think of it... If I recall correctly, it seemed that Indis was much in love with Finwë, but Finwë's feelings weren't as deep as hers. Might this be some effect from that he was previously married with another woman? Or am I just misinterpreting the Shibboleth?