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11-07-2002, 04:10 PM | #1 |
Fair and Cold
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I hate to come off as a nymphomaniac, but...
First of all, I am not entirely sure that this thread belongs in the Books Forum, since it is a response to concerns voiced in the Movies Forum. At the same time, it concerns Tolkien more than it does Peter Jackson. I'm throwing it in here for the time being, but if the greater powers (i.e. Esty) feel like bumping it off, I won't object too much.
Here is the deal: A whole lot of our members have been expressing their displeasure at the fact that one of the movie posters for TTT features a trio of Aragorn, Arwen, and Eowyn. The chief concern, aside from the obvious alteration of story events, is the possibility of a "love triangle" that would do injustice to Tolkien's vision. Some of our more zealous members are even threatening severe bodily harm to Peter Jackson, if Aragorn, for example, even for one second appears to be swaying in his affections for Arwen. Well, I happen to think that he is attracted to Eowyn, but overcomes that attraction quickly and efficiently, as any decent man would. The thing is, Tolkien's style of writing did not permit a whole lot of Freudian, or, in general, simply sexual innuendo. At the same time, Tolkien wasn't a simple-minded idiot either. Think about it in this terms: Aragorn is a man of flesh and blood, he has been away from Arwen for a great deal of time (we assume that they did not consummate their relationship until marriage, but I think it's safe to think that Arwen's very prensence satisfied Aragorn on a level above sex), he has been through a lot of stress and hardship lately, and suddenly he is confronted with the vision of Eowyn: "...and he thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood." TELL ME if that doesn't SCREAM of at least some form of attraction. This is NOT to say that Aragorn was ready to drop everything and come chasing after the blonde-he was too strong of a man for that-but I think it's a little naive for us to assume that Aragorn was some inhuman being that had never harbored an impure thought. His real strength, I think, is shown in the act of overcoming desire, as opposed to denying desire altogether. Furthermore, I think the fact that Aragorn explicitly denies Eowyn the chance to accompany him, can also be interpreted as Aragorn's way of ensuring that he will no longer be tempted. Think about it: Eowyn is an able woman, and a shieldmaiden to boot. In a war where everyone who can fight is needed, why does Aragorn insist she stay behind? It could be that he's not thinking about her in terms of a fighter, but in terms of a woman. An attractive woman. And he doesn't want, or need, any more temptation. Aragorn's a smart guy. Basically, my central argument is against those people who adamantly believe that sexual desire was something completely absent from the works of Tolkien. Granted, it was definitely on the smallest scale imaginable, but it was there. It was also, to a greater extent, present in The Silmarillion, but I will write on that later. Therefore, I wish people would stop freaking out so much about that silly poster, and go back to speculating on Orli's prowess as a shield-surfer. At least those conversations could provide a good laugh.
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11-07-2002, 06:29 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well, I for one don't care about the poster. I rather like it, in fact! But, maybe he was just so much in love with Arwen, he wasn't tempted by Eowyn. Maybe his love for Arwen ran so deep, that he couldn't be swayed by another. Also, maybe he wanted Eowyn to stay behind because of her attraction to him. He didn't want her to start to care for him even more, and was trying to protect her, as a friend. Why do people these days have to think everything is based on sexual attraction? Maybe he just liked her as a friend.
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11-07-2002, 06:40 PM | #3 |
Etheral Enchantress
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I agree that I thought that Aragorn felt attracted to Eowyn as almost any man probably was, for she was said to, as you quoted, be fair...cold, but fair. I thought that, being the noble, moral person that he was, he recognized that he loved Arwen more and, although there was physical attraction, his heart and soul belonged to Arwen.
I think that, by making it more noticeable in the movie, it may have the effect of making Aragorn seem more devoted to Arwen in that he was tempted by another, but stood strong, even though part of him was unsure. The only part I was worried about was that I was afraid that Peter Jackson would have something actually happen between Aragorn and Eowyn, and that there would be a moral dilemma. If that was the case, I think the JRR Tolkien would inflict bodily harm to Peter Jackson from beyond the grave for messing with the story that much and would take care of that for us. I was also worried that they may have something to make the movie R-rated, which would mean I would not be able to go over and over and over without a parent chaperone. I think that it was good that you put this in here, because everyone in here has read all of "The Lord of the Rings", whereas not everyone has read it in the Movies Section. You get a look at how fans of the book feel about it.
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11-07-2002, 10:54 PM | #4 |
Candle of the Marshes
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Sorry, Lush, but it's a bit too late for that... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].
The whole controversy has me rather confused, to be honest. I'd never thought anything *other* than that Aragorn found Eowyn attractive - she is described as being fairly pretty and of course, having skills and brains didn't hurt either. The "fair and cold" description certainly does imply that. But Aragorn is hardly alone in this assessment of Eowyn - as we know, Wormtongue is also among her fans, and it's not unreasonable to suppose that other guys have given her the glad eye on occasion without falling in love with her (I refuse to believe that Wormtongue felt anything other than the most physical emotions for her - he just isn't about altruistic emotions). And there's no reason to suppose he didn't feel friendly towards her, even if he didn't feel terribly tempted. The impression that the book leaves with me - and all this is open to interpretation, of course - is that when Aragorn left Eowyn at home and refused to let her accompany him, he was more concerned for her than for himself. He plainly twigged very quickly to the fact that she had an all-consuming crush on him; the description of her watching him leave, how she stops when he comes close to her - he would have had to be blind not to notice that while he found her pleasantly attractive (if not someone he wanted to pursue) she was far more focused on him. As for the "triangle" element - well, that's what the situation was in the book, since a triangle does not necessarily need the approval of all the participants in order to exist. Eowyn loves Aragorn (or thinks she loves him, which is just as painful), Arwen loves Aragorn, Aragorn loves Arwen but feels friendly towards Eowyn - nice girl, fellow-warrior and all that sort of thing. There are three people tangled up here, like it or not, and putting them all on the poster seems appropriate enough to me. As for the fear that Jackson might show Aragorn yielding to temptation and "having a relationship" with Eowyn - I doubt it; they'd have to change too many things needlessly. I think people have been overreacting to the scenes from the previews which show Aragorn sparring with Eowyn and so forth - but there's nothing there that can't be explained his feeling friendly towards her, in an older-brother sort of way. (After all, there was that scene with Boromir teaching Merry and Pippin to use their swords in LOTR, and nobody's saying that scene was implicitly romantic [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). And besides, having Aragorn love-and-leave Eowyn would REALLY darken the ending needlessly. Arwen marries Aragorn and the audience wonders "Does she *know*?" which doesn't bode well for their marriage. Faramir talks with Eowyn in the Houses of Healing and instead of that wonderful conversation she says "I was involved in an unpleasant romantic fling with Another. But I desire no man's pity." No, no. These guys just aren't like that. And Vanima - I think Jackson is contractually obliged not to make the movie R-rated. So we're safe (at least until the extra-scenes DVD comes out [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). My $0.02. Hope that was at least sort-of coherent. [ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]
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11-07-2002, 11:10 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I would like to mention that in my post before I didn't mean to imply Aragorn didn't find Eowyn attractive, he just wasn't tempted to leave Arwen or cheat on her or anything of the sort. Eowyn was probably beautiful enough that any guy would find her attractive, but that doesn't mean he had to lust after her or anything. Well, there's my opinion anyways!! I do tend to be rather opinionated at times. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Arwen
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11-08-2002, 04:29 PM | #6 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I also agree that there was a triangle of sorts, although very limited. Eowyn with the crush, Aragorn thinks she's cool but he isn't romantically interested - end of triangle. I also don't think PJ will have any soap-opera like stuff going on. I could see the crush being brought out more in the movie, but as was pointed out by someone else the way Aragorn handles the situation will illustrate his faithfulness. I would not object if PJ showed Aragorn to give Eowyn a second look. As Lush points out these are human beings, and reality says that when a man gets attention from an attractive woman with common goals and interests he doesn't just blow her off.
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11-08-2002, 04:38 PM | #7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Aragorn did feel sorry for her, he didn't want her to be hurt, but he really did love Arwen, that was probebly the only thing that kept him going. There is a difference between acknowloging beauty and being atracked to someone.
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11-09-2002, 09:19 AM | #8 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Great title for a thread! Who couldn't help but be curious about Lush's self-revelations!
First let me point out what was posted in that other thread: if you want the book and not the movie, by all means read the book. Movies based on books are not the books! Anyone who reads this forum knows there are hundreds, if not thousands, of interpretations of Tolkien’s words. If anyone thinks that Peter Jackson shouldn’t have his own interpretation, then they are incredibly selfish. The only difference between Peter Jackson and us is that he made a movie. I personally believe that Jackson did a good job in not insulting the books, as other people’s cinematic interpretations have done. Putting that aside, I agree with Arwen Imladris. I think that line is very ambiguous. It may or may not indicate physical or emotional attraction. Lush could be right, but I can’t find anything else indicating Aragorn might have had a sexual attraction to Éowyn. That’s not to say that one could not interpret that sentence along those lines. Looking at it from Éowyn’s perspective, though, there is even more room for interpretation. Many on this and the other thread characterize her attraction to Aragorn as a “crush.” This is terribly unfair to Éowyn on many levels. What was it, exactly, that she was attracted to? Quote:
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Once Éowyn realizes this, she says: “No longer do I desire to be a queen.” –VI, 5 The Steward and the King. She doesn’t have to be a queen to be valiant, noble, and great. She already is. And people claim that Tolkien was sexist! BAH!
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11-09-2002, 11:32 AM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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OK, so I reacted a little off the wall when I first saw that poster. My mistake!
I just don't want PJ to "oversexualize" or put too much emphasis on the "triangle" thing. It is really not that important to the story, is it? I realize that PJ can't please everyone, so I'm not complaining or whining, and I won't complain or whine if things didn't turn out the way I wanted them to. Who cares what I want? Its his movie, and, as said before, "his interpretation" of Tolkien's books.
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11-09-2002, 11:56 AM | #10 | |
Haunting Spirit
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I think, all in all, that I won't care too much, but I just don't want them to ADD many of there own twists to LOTR,a nd to stay as close as possible.
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11-09-2002, 01:29 PM | #11 | |
Wight
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Arwen Imladris raises a good argument against Aragorn being attracted to Eowyn at all though. As she said, Eowyn is describe as not yet having reached womanhood. Aragorn is of the line of Elros and possesses a long life span. I don't know how old he is when this all goes down, but his feelings could have been more "big brotherly" than anything else. Earlier I said I thought there definitly was a triangle of sorts, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe it was more of a one sided thing from Eowyn.
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11-09-2002, 04:14 PM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Ah, your right, Keneldil.
*Bill bends down and picks up yet another apple flung at his head, takes a big bite* Maybe I meant that it wasn’t a childish infatuation like crush. I don’t really know. Sometimes my fingers type faster than my mind operates. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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11-09-2002, 05:19 PM | #13 |
Etheral Enchantress
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(Bill, I know how you feel)
I agree that it was a crush in that she did not know Aragorn and was reacting merely on the fact that he had power. I mean, why does anyone have a crush on a world leader? Most world leaders are not attractive, but they give off a feeling of power that some women find attractive. Eowyn, knowing that Aragorn was the future king, felt an air of authority coming from him, which made her lust after his power. I mean, think honestly, how many of you can truthfully proclaim that, even now (for those of you that are at least, oh, say 25: good age to use) you do not every now and then think that it would be nice to somehow obtain a little more power? And, since Aragorn was a good man, that made it even harder for Eowyn to resist him. [ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]
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"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes |
11-09-2002, 09:43 PM | #14 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I'm open to Lush's interpretation of the key phrase (meaning Aragorn felt some attraction for Eowyn). I think it has validity. It could well be. Aragorn may have found Eowyn attractive on more than a physical level.
Aragorn's motivation for leaving Eowyn behind, however, didn't have as much to do with protecting himself from temptation as it did with his accurate perception of WHY she was so strongly attractd to him, then doing the right thing by her. It just so happened that it was the right thing for HIM, too. That's how it looks to me, anyway. Interesting thread, Lush! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
11-09-2002, 11:22 PM | #15 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As for Aragorn’s feelings toward Éowyn, I had seen the relationship much as Arwen Imladris and Keneldil the Polka-dot (now there’s a name) do; I had imagined that she would seem very immature to him (standing next to him, she seems immature to me), and I’d planned to quote the feelings that Elrond predicts in Arwen toward Aragorn: Quote:
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--Belin Ibaimendi [ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
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11-10-2002, 02:07 PM | #16 |
A Ghostly Light
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I don't doubt that Aragorn was tempted by Eowyn. However, I believe that portraying that temptation as a "love triangle" is way off. For example, in a healthy modern marriage, the husband will occasionally look at a hot girl walking by. That doesn't mean that there is a love triangle with him, that girl, and his wife. It just means he's being human. I think playing that glance up until it becomes a huge issue goes against what Tolkien meant.
Also, of course there was sex in Middle Earth. People continued to propagate! But Tolkien, as a staunch Catholic (I'm one too.), probably wouldn't want Aragorn to even be hinted as giving into that temptation of adultery. Aragorn and Arwen have true love to tie them together, and Tolkien, I believe, wanted to emphasize that their bond was more than just sex.
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11-10-2002, 03:50 PM | #17 | |
Etheral Enchantress
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11-10-2002, 07:41 PM | #18 | ||||||
Fair and Cold
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Of course, having this turn into a "huge issue" is against the spirit of Tolkien, but only if that's coming from the perspective of Aragorn. For Eowyn it is a huge issue. Quote:
What I haven't written about, and what nobody has yet mentioned, is Aragorn's attitude toward Eowyn later in the story. It's mentioned only a few times, but the whole "feel" is different. I think when he heals her, that's when the "brotherly love" that a few of us have mentioned really surfaces for the first time. Before, I just always wondered...
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11-10-2002, 07:58 PM | #19 | |
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
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11-10-2002, 08:07 PM | #20 |
Candle of the Marshes
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Flyover Country
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However, I believe that portraying that temptation as a "love triangle" is way off. For example, in a healthy modern marriage, the husband will occasionally look at a hot girl walking by. That doesn't mean that there is a love triangle with him, that girl, and his wife. It just means he's being human. I think playing that glance up until it becomes a huge issue goes against what Tolkien meant.
There's a big difference here; the girl walking by doesn't know the husband and probably doesn't think twice about him unless it's to wish he would stop ogling her. Very different from Eowyn, who had a big emotional investment in Aragorn. Also, Tolkien's Catholic faith doesn't mean that all of his characters have to behave according to ideal Catholic standards, even his heroes - look at Graham Greene, he was Catholic and wrote about faith extensively, but that didn't prevent his Catholic characters from really going off the rails morality-wise. Being a Catholic novelist doesn't mean that your characters somehow magically behave better. Characters do what they do; the best you can hope for is to be able to write it all down well enough.
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11-10-2002, 08:27 PM | #21 |
Speaker of the Dead
Join Date: Oct 2002
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And to think they could've avoided all this and just put Sam on the poster...
I haven't put a whole lot of thought into the Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn thing, but since the movies started coming out I have thought some on it. I always saw it as a one-sided affection, never even getting the impression that Aragorn had any feelings "like that" toward Eowyn. He had given his heart to Arwen--and besides, how can a girl hope to beat the other woman giving up her immortality for the man in question, especially when she doesn't have immortality to give up? Aragorn was, of course, not stupid, and realized that Eowyn had feelings for him. But now that you guys have brought it up, I agree that it wasn't really that romance, much less sex, but ambition guiding that relationship. Like y'all said, not to put Eowyn down--a lot of relationships between people in ruling positions have to do with ambition. But the Arwen/Aragorn relationship as love, pure and simple. 'Sides, I always liked Faramir. ^_^ I think Eowyn got duly compensated for losing Aragorn. No short side of the stick in this choice! ~*~Orual~*~
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11-10-2002, 08:42 PM | #22 | |
Fair and Cold
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And I also think that there is a difference between "giving your heart" to a woman (or an Elf), and keeping your thoughts pure. Then again, this could just be college-age cynicism rearing its ugly head.
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11-10-2002, 08:47 PM | #23 |
Speaker of the Dead
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Okay, Frodo and Sam. I'll compromise. I'm a reasonable hobbit!
~*~Orual~*~ PS: If you must, put Arwen and Eowyn and Aragorn in the background. But have Sam in the foreground, okay? Is it a deal?
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11-11-2002, 08:39 AM | #24 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I going to borrow your quote Belin.
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While I was reading that part of the story between Aragorn and Eowyn I ran across something else that casts a slightly different light on Eowyn's position than has been mentioned so far: Quote:
Hmm...as usual I wander off the track. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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11-11-2002, 07:46 PM | #25 | |
Fair and Cold
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...Actually, the real talk about the birds and the bees should be reserved for The Silmarillion.
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11-15-2002, 09:04 PM | #26 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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My point is that he feels that this is a situation in which it matters that he's in love with someone else, rather than one in which he is simply not interested. --Belin Ibaimendi
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11-15-2002, 09:57 PM | #27 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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point taken, Belin. And Bill Ferny's provided me with some enlightenment as well.
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I tried putting myself in Eowyn's shoes, and from that point of view of Aragorn, I'd say he did a great job at preventing stick issues. He just kept it all hush-hush. Quote:
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11-16-2002, 04:49 PM | #28 | |
Etheral Enchantress
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12-16-2002, 11:16 AM | #29 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I hope it doesn't look like I'm criticizing Eowyn. She's actually one of my favorite characters.
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12-16-2002, 03:44 PM | #30 | |
Spectre of Decay
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12-17-2002, 08:10 AM | #31 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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But again, as somebody said "love is enough", but another one answered "it is not". I vote for "it is not" option, beggin your pardon, if you follow my meaning...
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12-28-2002, 02:54 AM | #32 |
Delver in the Deep
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Posters? I thought all the posters sucked, but nevermind, back to the topic...
Aragorn is probably the staunchest, sternest, and most difficult to read characters in the book. Faramir says that Gollum has closed doors and windows in his mind - he hasn't met Aragorn yet! Keeping true to his point of view, Tolkien lets us know very little of what is in Aragorn's mind. We only really get the story from the hobbits' point of view. The chapters in which Aragorn is separated from the hobbits have a very 3rd person Eye of God feel to them. Two things which are clear, however:
Rather than a true Love Triangle, I think that Eowyn is the all-too common sad loser on the outside of a happy relationship. But even though she doesn't get the King, she gets the Steward. Loser she may be, but in second place she's the First Loser!
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12-28-2002, 03:11 AM | #33 |
Wight
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The way I see the Aragorn-Eowyn relationship is that he loved her as a friend, a close friend, like a sister perhaps, but nothing more. His affections for Arwen never swayed. Well thats how I see it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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