The Undying Lands

Does anyone have any information on the far green country? They call it the Undying Lands, but isn't it where the Elves have always dwelt? Does anyone think it may be possible that a source of power from Eru exists in this heaven-like country to make this everlasting life possible? Where do hobbits end up after they have passed away - would it be possible for Frodo to meet the Old Took in the Undying Lands?

[narfforc]

There is something somewhere (I think in the Akallabeth) that mentions; It is not the Land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein..and something like that. The hobbits are mortals and are accounted among men I believe, so where there spirits go only Mandos knows. The Old Took is dead and not wandering around the Undying Lands, if they ever meet it will be when the hobbits die.

Originally Posted by narfforc

There is something somewhere (I think in the Akallabeth) that mentions; It is not the Land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein..and something like that. The hobbits are mortals and are accounted among men I believe, so where there spirits go only Mandos knows. The Old Took is dead and not wandering around the Undying Lands, if they ever meet it will be when the hobbits die.

Do you think it would have been possible for Sauron to ever conquer the Undying Lands? Or would this test the patience of Eru too far for him to dare try this?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Well Sauron corrupted the men of Numenor and made them try to concure the unying lands. The result was that Manwe gave up his "rule" of Arda and that Eru took over. The whole army was destroyed and Eru changed the world. Removing the unying lands from the mortals and destroying Numenor.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you think it would have been possible for Sauron to ever conquer the Undying Lands? Or would this test the patience of Eru too far for him to dare try this?

Concerning the force of the Numenorean fleet, Tolkien noted:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Tar-Calion feels old age and death approaching, and he listens to the last prompting of Sauron, and building the greatest of all armadas, he sets sail into the West, breaking the Ban, and going up with war to wrest from the gods 'everlasting life within the circles of the world'.

What Sauron actually expected is that:

Originally Posted by Akallabeth, Silmarillion

It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud king.

If this fleet is the mightiest that ever was, then it surpasses even that of the host of the valar during the war of wrath - which kicked Melkor and co almost for good. But even the numenorean fleet he expected to be defeated (by what means, it is not mentioned). In conclusion, I don't think he deluded himself by thinking he was mightier than the valar; he rather hoped that he won't have anything to do with Eru & co:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, i, Myths Transformed, HoME X

He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Numenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Silly me forgetting to answer the question. . . well, what he said.

I don't think he had ambition or ability to do so.

Who exactly lived in & commanded the Undying Lands? How big was this country?

[Lalwendë]

Very big I hope. Has anyone else ever thought about the simple maths - a load of immortals and all their immortal descendants would make for one enormous population. Maybe Valinor was like something from a dystopian Sc-fi novel with towering skyscrapers where each person is allotted just seven feet by three of living space? Or maybe they had discovered how to shrink themselves as seen in Kurt Vonnegut's Slapstick?

[Raynor]

A short description is given in the Sil:

Originally Posted by Of the begining of days

Behind the walls of the Pelori the Valar established their domain in that region which is called Valinor, and there were their houses, their gardens, and their towers. In that guarded land the Valar gathered great store of light and an the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.

It seems that the place was quite large .

I would also speculate that Aman was quite fitting - besides Valinor, there was also Araman and Avathar; plus, Tol Eressea too was removed after the Akallabeth, "beyond the reach of Men". This could mean an alternate reality, whatever that is - perhaps something similar to the shadow world of the ringwraith; or it could simply mean a another planet in Ea.

[Legolas]

Mansun, you should read the Silmarillion.

It's alllll about the Undying Lands. Don't let us spoil it all for you.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Where do hobbits end up after they have passed away - would it be possible for Frodo to meet the Old Took in the Undying Lands?

Not in Valinor. Valinor is Elftown... a paradise, yes, but for elves, not men, dwarves, or hobbits. Frodo (& Sam, & Bilbo) went to Valinor as guests, and not as ghosts, but as living Hobbits.

However, once they reach the end of their years, they will die-- presumably then going to the place where the Old Took is. Aragorn calls it "Beyond the circles of the world." What exactly that means...?

And-- What Legolas said-- Hear, hear. Read the Sil.

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Not in Valinor. Valinor is Elftown... a paradise, yes, but for elves, not men, dwarves, or hobbits. Frodo (& Sam, & Bilbo) went to Valinor as guests, and not as ghosts, but as living Hobbits.

However, once they reach the end of their years, they will die-- presumably then going to the place where the Old Took is. Aragorn calls it "Beyond the circles of the world." What exactly that means...?

And-- What Legolas said-- Hear, hear. Read the Sil.

Basically the dead go to the hall of Mandos which seems to be a place where they hang out with other dead people.

I basically think that the undying lands had SOME charm or power for otherwise why would Frodo say to sam-"...my wounds are too great to be healed in Middle Earth Sam.."(or something like that) perhaps old wounds could be forgotten perhaps life could be extended indefinitely i think old JRRT himself wasn't clear on this he has contradicted himself many times.
You can reply privately at my email address sayan_mukherjee_1990@yahoo.com and we'll have a nice chat i'm just DYING to talk to some one about it!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lord Sayan

I basically think that the undying lands had SOME charm or power for otherwise why would Frodo say to sam-"...my wounds are too great to be healed in Middle Earth Sam.."(or something like that) perhaps old wounds could be forgotten perhaps life could be extended indefinitely i think old JRRT himself wasn't clear on this he has contradicted himself many times.

Tolkien addressed this quite on point:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.

Originally Posted by Letter #325

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time – whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

Originally Posted by Aman and Mortal Men, Myths Transformed, HoME X

The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not (emphasis original) alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged.

[Legolas]

Lord Sayan - what contradictions are you referring to?

It sounded like you were speaking of the fate of the mortals (Gimli, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam) that went to Aman. I put together an article about it here.

Tolkien sounds sure of himself when he says these things. Here are definitive statements (in addition to those quoted by Raynor above).

Letter 154:

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world.

Letter 246:

'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.