The Hobbit - Chapter 06 - Out of the Frying-Pan Into the Fire

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A common proverb gives this chapter its title, and in the course of its events we find out that it is used as an equivalent to the original proverb coined by Bilbo:

Escaping goblins to be caught by wolves

Of course, had it been used as the title, it would have given away what happens...

Bilbo's solitary adventure is over, and he is fortunate to find his friends so soon. The conversation he overhears shows us how important Gandalf considers him; like the Biblical Good Shepherd, he would leave the dwarves alone to go back and search for the hobbit. The newly-found ring enables Bilbo to impress the others with his 'burgling' abilities. Why do you think he was reluctant to tell them about it? I also wonder why it is mentioned that the dwarves were especially interested in his account of the riddle competition.

I'm not quite sure from Gandalf's tale whether he brought the dwarves out of the mountains by the back door as well - how would they have managed to pass the goblin guards? Wouldn't those then have been more agitated by the time Bilbo came there?

Bilbo's hunger is mentioned several times in this chapter, both early, when travelling on with the others, and later in the Eagle eyrie. Is that just to remind us of his hobbit nature, or do you think there's more significance to it?

The trees save their lives at first when the wolves/Wargs enter the picture, but they are also a trap. There's no escaping from them. The element of fire is a two-edged sword as well; was Gandalf reckless in using it without taking their own danger by the flames into account?

What are your thoughts on the 'partnership' between the goblins and the Wargs? Who do you suppose the Men are that have built homes near this location?

The noise and the fire alert the deux ex machina of Middle-earth. What does this passage tell us about the race of the Great Eagles? We also read clues as to Gandalf's relationship with them, and the reason they are willing to do him a favour.

There's poetry to discuss here as well, though 'only' goblin rhymes. What do you think of their songs?

The chapter closes with Bilbo's dream; any ideas as to its significance? It reminds me of Frodo's dreams in LotR...


What are your favourite lines? One that amused me is this:

The wizard, to tell the truth, never minded explaining his cleverness more than once...

[A_Brandybuck]

First I want to say, that I am now getting in here at Chapter 6. So, I have not read the earlier chapters (sure I have, but I am starting now to read from Chapter 6). Thus just let me know, when something has already discussed.

The first thing, which got my attention was a phrase from Gandalf:

I must see if I can't find a more or less decent giant to block it up again, [...] or soon there will be no getting over the mountains at all

What was Gandalf's plan concerning the goblin-gate? He couldn't really mean to find a giant, who blocks the gate with a huge stone. Does this formulation is caused by the circumstances, that the 'Hobbit' is a children's book and does this fit only in the context of the 'Hobbit', but not in the context of later Middle-Earth.
Maybe he really meant the Stone-Giants, which they have seen before.

On the other side, Gandalf could have made some kind of joke and only wanted to say, that this is a serious problem and someone, who is powerful enough, has to solve the problem. But the Dwarves should not care about it now.

Also, the flight always remember me at the Flight of the Fellowship out of Moria.

"We must be getting on at once, now we are a little rested," he said. "They will be out after us in hundreds when night comes on; and already shadows are lengthening ...

It is a very similar situation. Coming out of Caves, which are 'populated' by Orcs/Goblins, Have to hurry, because the Goblins are not yet here, but coming soon.

One word also drew my attention: christmas tree
Where did the narrator get this word, because there is no christmas-tree in Middle-Earth, because there is no christmas.
But I think, that this is caused by another instance, the narrator of the story was surely not an inhabitant of Middle-Earth, but of our World and he is the one, who drew the comparison. He surely knows about Christmas ...

What exactly was the language of the Wargs? The fact, that Gandalf understand the language let me to the assumption, that it could be a kind of "Black Speech".

Concerning the Eagles, I wondered whether the name 'Gwaihir' was already derived, probably not, because then the 'Lord of the Eagles' were surely named.

The chapter ends with a very good ending for Bilbo. His stomach was finally feeling full again.

The question, what does Bilbo's dream mean bothered me, too. I have no proof, but my feeling tells me, that the dream is somehow related with the Ring. Maybe some foresight concerning his dependance to the Ring.
Another possibility could be, that he is now that long on the road, that his memory to his home has become more and more vague, so that he dreamt only from the House, but could not think about something else in Bagend.
But as I said, only speculation.

[Kath]

I suppose Bilbo's immediate reluctance to tell the true story about how he got out of the tunnels could be a sign of the power of the Ring, that it has already begun to exert an influence over him. However, it could also be that he felt deep down that he had got it from Gollum by unfair means because, once he realised that he was holding the very thing this creature wanted, he kept it.

As to why the Dwarves should be so interested in the riddles, perhaps it was a common game. Since both Bilbo and Gollum knew it though their heritages and histories were quite different, it may be that it was a well-known thing. Also, if someone tells you a story and mentions a riddle, wouldn't you want to know what it was to see if you could figure it out?

Is that just to remind us of his hobbit nature, or do you think there's more significance to it?

I can think of no other significance it would hold. We are constantly reminded that he is not a natural adventurer. In fact we are reminded that he is really a bit of a wuss! Though perhaps his comment - "I am nearly dead of it!" - when referring to the hunger mentioned could be a sort of play on words. We have just had a bit of narration in which Bilbo constantly fears being torn up for food, so maybe he is afraid that he'll be killed because the eagles are hungry. Tenuous I know!

I think to answer all these questions on Wargs we're going to have to get Eomer and SamwiseGamgee in here, they are the resident experts after all. Though they may argue that these cannot be 'real' Wargs, since no self-respecting Warg would allow such a creature on it's back.

Gandalf's fiery attack on the wolves does seem reckless, and so a little out of character if you look at the LotR Gandalf who seems to think over every action, but the TH Gandalf seems less concerned with the consequences of original actions. It might also suggest that he had never dealt with that particular situation before, and didn't really know what he was doing.

Truthfully I found the songs to be a little scary when I first read the book. All that about roasting and fat melting and bones blackening . . . certainly creeped me out! While they may not be on a par with some of his more serious songs, they are just as effective, and they definitely get the point across.

Bilbo's dream, of searching all round the house, perhaps as A_Brandybuck says it is an early warning of how the Ring will affect him? I believe in LotR he says that he is constantly needing to know where it is, so maybe.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

I suppose Bilbo's immediate reluctance to tell the true story about how he got out of the tunnels could be a sign of the power of the Ring, that it has already begun to exert an influence over him. However, it could also be that he felt deep down that he had got it from Gollum by unfair means because, once he realised that he was holding the very thing this creature wanted, he kept it.

But again the canonicity-question (or kind of)! Those that you mention are surely Bilbo's motives from a viewpoint which includes LotR, but if we think about TH as one sole book that was written before LotR, the ring-effects-motive possibly can't be. Because the Ring wasn't (read: Tolkien didn't consider the ring) such a significant item that altered people's behaviour.

Bilbo's dream, of searching all round the house, perhaps as A_Brandybuck says it is an early warning of how the Ring will affect him? I believe in LotR he says that he is constantly needing to know where it is, so maybe.

Again, a good point if we include LotR in our consideration, if not it's a little use.

[Kath]

Because the Ring wasn't (read: Tolkien didn't consider the ring) such a significant item that altered people's behaviour.

Do you know that? I'm not saying you're wrong I just don't know. Perhaps in writing it he did realise what an impact it might have. We know he changed bits of the story to make it fit in with LotR, but perhaps this was something that had already come into his head.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

Do you know that? I'm not saying you're wrong I just don't know. Perhaps in writing it he did realise what an impact it might have. We know he changed bits of the story to make it fit in with LotR, but perhaps this was something that had already come into his head.

Of course I can't know!
...
I was just assuming.

[Kath]

Ah I see, I thought perhaps you had read it somewhere!

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kath

I suppose Bilbo's immediate reluctance to tell the true story about how he got out of the tunnels could be a sign of the power of the Ring, that it has already begun to exert an influence over him. However, it could also be that he felt deep down that he had got it from Gollum by unfair means because, once he realised that he was holding the very thing this creature wanted, he kept it.

My sense is that his motivation was as immediate as his reluctance. He had just snuck under the nose of Balin, and his vanity kept him from admitting that he'd done it with a magic ring. He wanted the Dwarves' approval, and now had a means of getting it; underhanded, mind you, but he was a thief, after all.

[Lhunardawen]

Because I've never heard of the proverb before I read the book, I must say that this is one of the best chapter titles I've ever encountered!

Originally Posted by Esty

The newly-found ring enables Bilbo to impress the others with his 'burgling' abilities. Why do you think he was reluctant to tell them about it?

Elempi got there before I did. Why would a magician reveal his secret to anyone, especially when previously his talents were doubted?

It's a stretch, but maybe Bilbo was also driven to hide it by a bit of paranoia. After all, he technically stole it, and the last thing he would want is somebody else stealing it from him.

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

One word also drew my attention: christmas tree
Where did the narrator get this word, because there is no christmas-tree in Middle-Earth, because there is no christmas.
But I think, that this is caused by another instance, the narrator of the story was surely not an inhabitant of Middle-Earth, but of our World and he is the one, who drew the comparison. He surely knows about Christmas

Once again, you got there before me. I even had the words underlined! Funny how it's just two familiar words in our vocabulary, but seeing them in a book like this had me thinking about the author and his relation to the story he narrates, as well as his intended audience. Wouldn't a non-Middle Earth word be out of place in this story? Or did he want - somehow - to connect more personally with the readers?

Moving on, I felt a certain oneness with the wolves as they howled at the moon! (Maybe I should stop antagonizing the Wargs and the Warg-friends...)

Originally Posted by Kath

Gandalf's fiery attack on the wolves does seem reckless, and so a little out of character if you look at the LotR Gandalf who seems to think over every action, but the TH Gandalf seems less concerned with the consequences of original actions. It might also suggest that he had never dealt with that particular situation before, and didn't really know what he was doing.

That was what I thought too, although I had to drag it a little because my knowledge of Gandalf was a bit hesitant to come to that conclusion. Perhaps he was feeling desperate, or he thought the Wargs were not wise enough (a to Eomer, Formy and Nilp) to come up with a way to use his weapon to their advantage. In any case, it was certainly non-Gandalfesque.

But it's interesting to note that I find this Gandalf more human than the wizard we get to know in LotR. This particular passage suggests so:

"Go away! little boys!" Gandalf shouted in answer. "It isn't bird-nesting time. Also naughty little boys that play with fire get punished." He said it to make them angry, and to show them he was not frightened of them - though of course he was, wizard though he was.

This answer of his certainly lightened the mood after the goblins' dreadfully scary song.

How did you all feel when Bilbo was almost left behind by the Eagles again? I pity him for having to hang on to Dori's legs for that long, but at least I suppose he got an effective shock treatment to his acrophobia after that flight.

Speaking of flight, isn't it interesting how that rescue by the Eagles is a precursor to Sam and Frodo's rescue on Mount Doom several years later?

Finally, on a very serious note, the mini-landslide at the beginning of the chapter prove a bit fortunate for them as their travel was made less burdensome thanks to the force of gravity. But for me I read that part at the wrong time, what with the recent landslide in Southern Leyte here in the Philippines - which I'm sure some of you have heard news of - that claimed so many lives. Of course I can't blame Tolkien, but I couldn't help but be reminded of the tragedy when I read that.

[Bêthberry]

I suppose it is time to raise a point I have been noticing as I reread TH for this discussion. In general the question is, "How is this a children's story and how is it not, if it is not?"

Time was, academe turned its nose up at children's literature. It wasn't so long ago that literature departments refused to allow courses in children's literature or, allowed only students in the Education programme (that is, those training to be teachers) to earn credit for English courses in Children's literature. Didn't Tolkien himself express regret that he had written TH as a children's story?

Yet children's literature has become one of the finest areas of development in literature in the last decades. Ideas about what children's literature is and how it should be written are prime topics for discussion.

So, what can we gather about Tolkien's ideas concerning children's literature from TH? One aspect I have noticed is how the narrator seems to describe events and characters from what I think must represent Tolkien's conception of a child's point of view. This is, I think, what makes Bilbo seem so childlike at times: Tolkien describes a point or feeling so as to make his audience--his sons--identify with Bilbo.

This is the excerpt in this chapter which makes me think Tolkien might have made a very good Sunday School teacher. It is the opening paragraphs:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Bilbo had escaped the goblins but he did not know where he was. He had lost hood, cloak, food, pony, his buttons and his friends. He wandered on and on, till the sun began to sink westwards -- behind the mountains. Their shadows fell across Bilbo's path, and he looked back. Then he looked forward and could see before him only ridges and slopes falling towards lowlands and plains glimpsed occasionally between the trees.

"Good heavens," he exclaimed. "I seem to have got right to the other side of the Misty Mountains, right to the edge of the Land Beyond! Where and O where can Gandalf and the dwarves have got to? I only hope to goodness they are not still back there in the power of the goblins!"

Children are by nature empiricists. Until they have developed the habits (and brain function) capable of abstract thought, they live by observation. Here is our little hobbit fellow noticing very experientially just where he is. We might perhaps as well comment on the style of dialogue here, but I prefer to move on to another point about this opening.

Originally Posted by continuing on from above quote

He still wandered on, out of the little high valley, over its edge, and down the slopes beyond; but all the while a very uncomfortable thought was growing inside him. He wondered whether he ought not, now he had the magic ring, to go back into the horrible, horrible, tunnels and look for his friends. He had just made up his mind that it was his duty, that he must turn back -- and very miserable he felt about it--when he heard voices.

Now this paragraph represents well a child's sense of moral dilemma, the quandry between protecting oneself and doing what he has been told is the right thing to do.

There are other passages in the previous chapters where the narrator gives to Bilbo this kind of child psychology. I think it is Tolkien the story teller working on his audience, to help them identify with his hero.

Does this make sense?

What else can we gather about Tolkien's ideas concerning children's literature from this story?

[Thinlómien]

Bethberry
Does this make sense?

A bit too much even. Probably needless to say, but I've never thought about it like that. (Maybe it's because I'm myself such a child still... ) But doesn't that psychology work with adults as well? they don't maybe think about it on that Winnie-the-Pooh-ish way, but aren't their minds after all quite similar?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

: they don't maybe think about it on that Winnie-the-Pooh-ish way, but aren't their minds after all quite similar?

No.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

No.

Okay, but even if they tend to do the thing they have to but they don't want to don't they have the same kind of feelings (deep) inside them?

In Finnish this chapter's name is something like "From a ditch to a bog." I found the English name much more accurate and amusing, but that's nearly always so with translations...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Okay, but even if they tend to do the thing they have to but they don't want to don't they have the same kind of feelings (deep) inside them?

Yes indeed! Children have intense emotional feelings; as the infant develops, emotion is very closely tied in with memory. But the brain develops over years. Have you ever watched an infant come to realise that that those things flapping in front of his face--hands--are a part of his or her body? Development is rapid in the first three to four years, a bit more slowly until age 10, and then, well, it's not quite a grinding halt then. There is also some debate about the specific nature of adolescent brain function, though. I digress!

But my point isn't so much the feelings as it is the particular form of argument and the style , which is expressly suited to a particular understanding of children. It is purposefully designed to help Tolkien's audience identify with the hero, Bilbo. We see Bilbo in many instances as child-like because he is made to appear through the feelings and perceptions which Tolkien attributed to children. Frodo's thought processes are handled very differently in LotR.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

: But doesn't that psychology work with adults as well? they don't maybe think about it on that Winnie-the-Pooh-ish way, but aren't their minds after all quite similar?

Thinking more about your comment, hinlómien, I've been wondering if a better way to answer you is, simply, to say that the important part is the Winnie-the-Pooh-ish way. That's the catch.

[Formendacil]

Hmmm.... I seem to be lagging behind in discussion... I blame being sick- although I suppose that's not really true in this thread's particular case.

This chapter has a bit of a final feel to it, as if we're done with the Goblins and their ilk, and we're on to other adventures. The next chapter confirms that view, and so it seems that we're in a story of serial, unconnected, adventures, moving from Trolls, to Goblins (and Gollum), and now on to... Beorn.

Of course, once we reach the end of the book, these threads are all tied back together. As we learn then, the Goblins do NOT give up regarding Thorin and Co. However, discussion of such returns should be left, perhaps, for the chapter of the return.

"Out of the Frying Pan and Into the Fire" always seems a little bit disjointed. As noted, it's really more of a bridge chapter than one of the big adventure ones, although with burning pine combs, Wargs, and the Great Eagles does give it plenty of adventure in and of itself. It's main purpose, however, seems to be to bring Bilbo back to the Dwarves, to resolve the Goblin situation, and to move the whole company a little closer to their next adventure.

Two very interesting things happen in this chapter. The first is Bilbo's reluctance to tell the Dwarves the truth about his Ring. Although this can be explained as him looking for respect, feeling guilty about its theft, or whatnot, one has to wonder if this secretiveness on Bilbo's part isn't what started Tolkien down on the the train of thought that resulted in very crucial parts of Frodo's Ring-behaviour in the Lord of the Rings.

The other, very momentous first-appearance in this chapter that ought to be noted with full fanfare is that of the Wargs. Yes Virginia, here is the original appearance of the noble beasts whose followers are known on this website as the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Society.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Finally, on a very serious note, the mini-landslide at the beginning of the chapter prove a bit fortunate for them as their travel was made less burdensome thanks to the force of gravity. But for me I read that part at the wrong time, what with the recent landslide in Southern Leyte here in the Philippines - which I'm sure some of you have heard news of - that claimed so many lives. Of course I can't blame Tolkien, but I couldn't help but be reminded of the tragedy when I read that.

I did a quick "find" on 'landslide' and 'avalanche' on this thread and didn't find any answers to your comment, so I'll give this a go. Tolkien actually experienced an avalanche in the Alps when he was young. He was on a narrow path with a group, and an avalanche started, and a boulder passed right between him and a lady walking in front of him. Had he or the woman been a few feet farther forward or back, they would have been dead. So Tolkien includes it in TH in all seriousness as to how dangerous landslides are.

[deal_with_it]

Why didn't the Orcs of Moria use the same tactic against the Fellowship when they escaped out the Eastern Door? There had to be other passages besides just the Bridge? maybe not

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There had to be other passages besides just the Bridge? maybe not

I think not, unless they were "magic" doors only discovered
and/or opened by dwarf passwords.