The Hobbit - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter is absolutely pivotal, not only for Bilbo ("It was a turning point in his career..."), who was able to fulfil his role as a burglar because of the ring (no capital R yet!), but also for Tolkien's Legendarium, which was given a focal point for the events of the Third Age, and indeed for JRR Tolkien himself! His life was changed as a result, some things for the better, such as increased finances later on, and some things for the worse, as far as his personal privacy was concerned.

On a side note, the title of this chapter made it into the LotR movie, as one of the phrases Gandalf muttered to himself in Bag End.

Though Bilbo is completely out of the picture concerning his quest and companions, we see him growing into the person he is to become. The Elvish blade provides both light and defense, helping him take an active role, and his decision to go forward is brave!

He (and the readers) meets Gollum here. Do you remember your impressions of him the first time you read the book? Did he scare you? Did any of you read the original version of this chapter first, the one that was published before it was revised to fit in with LotR? Perhaps those of you who have a copy of the original version can briefly summarize the differences for us. One question that occurred to me - was Bilbo foolish to name his real name in a situation like this?

What do you think of the riddle contest? What about Gollum's promise if Bilbo won? It's lucky for Bilbo that Gollum has developed the habit of talking to himself, thereby giving the hobbit some important information about the ring.

Then comes what is perhaps the most important part - Bilbo's pity and understanding for Gollum. This has an enormous effect on the later story of the LotR. He escapes both Gollum's and the goblins' attacks, though not without a sacrifice - his brass buttons!

How do Bilbo's and Gollum's characters compare in this chapter? Which are their similarities, which their differences? How do you feel when reading it?

[littlemanpoet]

I have to comment on this now instead of later!

As I've mentioned elsewhere, this chapter was my introduction to Tolkien, because my older brother gave me a vocal performance of it, reading it aloud to me at bed time. The events in the chapter changed Bilbo's life; I can honestly say that this moment in my own experience changed my life. In discovering Tolkien, my imagination was baptized (to borrow a phrase from Lewis), and I have never looked back.

Part of what captured my imagination was the life and death aspect of this event; also, Gollum was deliciously scary and evil. On top of that, the riddling is enough to capture the interest of any young reader; it also awakened me to the realities of Anglo-Saxon poetry, which I was to discover only much later.

I (once upon a time) had Jared Lobdell's (edited) Tolkien Compass (now sadly lent and lost), in which the old and new versions are presented side by side. That was a fascinating read! And I'm so glad Tolkien revised it for the sake of LotR. From memory, the main difference in the original version is that Gollum keeps his word, and leads Bilbo out of the depths of the mountain. I don't remember, but it's almost like Gollum wishes him luck, like in some Grimm's Fairy Tale! The edge of one's seat intensity of the revised version is much better, and allows for the eucatastrophe of Bilbo's change of heart, choosing not to kill Gollum out of pity. Very important and very moving.

Was Bilbo foolish? Well, yes, but it was really naiveté, wasn't it? It highlighted how immature and childish he still was at this point, which only heightened the impact of the very mature pitying of Gollum at the end of the chapter, not to mention the exceedingly deft handling of political turmoils between Thorin and the army that wanted a share in the spoils of Smaug's death.

The fact that Gollum and Bilbo riddle back and forth to each other shows their kinship, however remote. Their minds are not dissimilar; thus, we have a clue that Bilbo does have the potential to become a second Gollum! But that is maybe hindsight only. Or is it?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I (once upon a time) had Jared Lobdell's (edited) Tolkien Compass (now sadly lent and lost), in which the old and new versions are presented side by side.

You might want to check out The Annotated Hobbit, which
gives the versions and discusses them, although my
impression is that the editor of The Annotated Hobbit
prefers the original version and doesn't see a compelling
reason to have changed it..

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The fact that Gollum and Bilbo riddle back and forth to each other shows their kinship, however remote. Their minds are not dissimilar; thus, we have a clue that Bilbo does have the potential to become a second Gollum! But that is maybe hindsight only. Or is it?

I think it's also a question of character and personality. And, if there's such a thing, I'd say that Bilbo had better ring-resistance than Gollum did. But again, the situations in wich they first saw (and took) the Ring are very dissimilar. Would Bilbo have used violence to get the Ring? (Luckily) we don't know. But it's interesting to speculate. I don't believe he would have because he had a different personality and had a better self-control or/and ring-resistance than Gollum had.
Another fact that affects would Bilbo have become another Gollum is that the Ring had more time to affect Gollum. If Bilbo had wielded the Ring as long as Gollum did, what would he have become? He had a better ring-resistance (he f.g. gave it up voluntarily), but was he resistant enough? I think he would have become a "milder" version of Gollum.

Riddles in the Dark has always been one of my favourite chapters. the riddle-game intrigues me. The riddles fascinated me when I was first read TH aloud (I was about 6 yo). I couldn't guess them, but I could get the "air" of them and was always keen to know the answer.
I'm also interested in the first version of the chapter and how it would have changed the Lord of the Rings, if it had remained. (Discussed here.)

Also, I like that the buttons of Bilbo's vest come off. In the midst of all adventure there are such small things! And it's so absurd (sorry, I'm jumping to the next chapter) when Bilbo grieves after his buttons when he's barely got out of the caves alive!

[JennyHallu]

I don't know if Bilbo's resistance to the Ring was as much better than Smeagol's as it seems. Bilbo found the Ring in such a way that it prevented any necessity of violence. Perhaps the ring had learned how to approach his victims.

Honestly, I never really got the feeling that the handy little trinket in The Hobbit and the actively malevolent presence in The Lord of the Rings were the same bit of jewelry. Almost as though even in his revision of the chapter Tolkien still hadn't yet realized quite what a danger the Ring was going to be.

I wonder if Bilbo was riddling with Smeagol or Gollum? The ring had left him, and Bilbo was bringing up all his hidden and hated memories of sun and happiness, and Smeagol really seemed almost wistful about it.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I wonder if Bilbo was riddling with Smeagol or Gollum? The ring had left him, and Bilbo was bringing up all his hidden and hated memories of sun and happiness, and Smeagol really seemed almost wistful about it.

Interesting question; I've never thought about that. More Sméagol, me thinks, but some mixture of the persons maybe describs the Gollum of TH better. Or maybe first Sméagol and after realising the loss of the Ring Gollum?

[JennyHallu]

Or first Smeagol, and Gollum arrived after Bilbo cheated. In the Two Towers and the Return of the King Smeagol always turned to Gollum when he felt he had been wronged.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Or first Smeagol, and Gollum arrived after Bilbo cheated. In the Two Towers and the Return of the King Smeagol always turned to Gollum when he felt he had been wronged.

I was thinking along the same lines (or I was saying that in my previous post).

-------------------------------------------

Another interesting thing is that Gollum's logic either fails or then he's very very suspicious: he assumes that Bilbo has gone to the gate though he had just asked for help to get to the gates. Do you think his logic fails or that he just assumes that Bilbo lied to him? This has troubled me.

[JennyHallu]

I think he assumed Bilbo was dishonest.

Bilbo had, after all, just cheated on the Riddle-game. And he had been clever enough (ok, lucky enough, but how does Gollum know that?) to steal the Ring. And Gollum had not had contact with anything more intelligent than a fish for a long time. He could only have predicted Bilbo's actions based on what he himself would do. And he would have lied. I always figured that Gollum believed Bilbo only came down to his pool in order to deliberately steal the Ring. Paranoid little guy...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bilbo cheated on the riddle game? I disagree. There have been discussions of this in the past, and if I remember rightly, it was generally agreed that when Gollum accepted the question, he brought forth no objection, thereby making it "official". As a matter of fact, there may be a reference to this in the Letters - I'll check and come back later.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Bilbo cheated on the riddle game? I disagree. There have been discussions of this in the past, and if I remember rightly, it was generally agreed that when Gollum accepted the question, he brought forth no objection, thereby making it "official". As a matter of fact, there may be a reference to this in the Letters - I'll check and come back later.

I say it was cheating, but there's no problem because Gollum accepted it. So it's acceptable cheating.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Gollum did tacitly go along with The Baggins cheating,
which brings up an interesting question, if nice
Smeagol, who only wants to play the game correctly,
had continued to insist on playing the game properly
instead of helping out Thief Baggins by only asking
for three guesses (a poor trade), would
Bilbo have had to go along with being eaten?
Or, more to the point, how would Tolkien have
gotten Bilbo out of his predicament honorably?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Gollum did tacitly go along with The Baggins cheating,
which brings up an interesting question, if nice
Smeagol had insisted on playing the game properly
would Bilbo have had to go along with being eaten?
Or, more to the point, how would Tolkien have
gotten Bilbo out of his predicament honorably?

The first thing that comes into my mind is apologising and makin up a new question. But if he didn't come up with any...

[littlemanpoet]

I think you're all off track with this Sméagol/Gollum dichotomy as it pertains to this chapter. Gollum was in the fore, and had been for quite a few centuries, and remained in the fore right up until the moment Frodo bound him by the Ring ... and treated him as someone with the dignity of a human (read hobbitish) soul. Only then did Sméagol appear. Tolkien makes this quite clear in the chapter called The Taming of Sméagol.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think you're all off track with this Sméagol/Gollum dichotomy as it pertains to this chapter. Gollum was in the fore, and had been for quite a few centuries, and remained in the fore right up until the moment Frodo bound him by the Ring ... and treated him as someone with the dignity of a human (read hobbitish) soul. Only then did Sméagol appear. Tolkien makes this quite clear in the chapter called The Taming of Sméagol.

Usch, usch.
At least his is a kinder Gollum than the one we see in LotR.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Usch, usch.
At least his is a kinder Gollum than the one we see in LotR.

Barely. It was a children's story after all! Usch usch? I'm sorry, what's that mean?

[JennyHallu]

Kinder Gollum, less malevolent Ring...

This chapter is like echoes (except they're going the wrong way) of the canon. The form is there, but the spirit is only hinted at.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Usch usch? I'm sorry, what's that mean?

It's my expressio that is close to . I can't descirbe it any better.

But isn't Bilbo showing kindness (or at least courtesy) to Gollum? Don't we see a tiny bit of his former self (=Sméagol) there?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
I think you're all off track with this Sméagol/Gollum dichotomy as it pertains to this chapter. Gollum was in the fore, and had been for quite a few centuries, and remained in the fore right up until the moment Frodo bound him by the Ring ... and treated him as someone with the dignity of a human (read hobbitish) soul. Only then did Sméagol appear. Tolkien makes this quite clear in the chapter called The Taming of Sméagol.

Ssss. Always poor Smeagol is picked on. Didn't we just go over
to see The Baggins out of curiosity, preciouss.

'What iss he, my precious?' whispered Gollum...This is what he had come to find out, for he was not really very hungry at the moment, only curious

And what of the story the nice hobbit later wrote:

Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed- as a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things.

And everyone knows you cannst cheat at the riddle game, not even
nassty, evil creatures would do so, gollum.

[Raynor]

What about Gollum's promise if Bilbo won?

Well, that seems to be the weak part in Tolkien's linking the Hobbit to Lotr:

Originally Posted by Letter #109

Rayner has, of course, spotted a weakness (inevitable): the linking. I am glad that he thinks that the linking has on the whole been well done. That is the best that could be hoped. I have done the best I could, since I had to have hobbits (whom I love), and must still have a glimpse of Bilbo for old times' sake. But I don't feel worried by the discovery that the ring was more serious than appeared; that is just the way of all easy ways out. Nor is it Bilbo's actions, I think, that need explanation. The weakness is Gollum, and his action in offering the ring as a present

I wonder if Bilbo was riddling with Smeagol or Gollum?

I doubt that Smeagol the hobbit would fancy eating another hobbit

[JennyHallu]

I doubt Gollum knows that many riddles. I suppose I thought that Gollum set the terms and watched the game, but let Smeagol play. Smeagol wasn't ever gone from Gollum's character, but I think he just never argued until Frodo came into the picture.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But isn't Bilbo showing kindness (or at least courtesy) to Gollum? Don't we see a tiny bit of his former self (=Sméagol) there?

Yes, Bilbo is showing courtesy, though when he does, he doesn't really have any pity for Gollum; just fear, right? His pity for Gollum only manifests when he has a choice to try to jump over Gollum or to kill him. And at that point, Gollum's only objective is to 'catch the thief' and no doubt mete out 'justice' of a sort (I wouldn't want that kind of justice, would you?). By contrast, Frodo has had time to think and consider what he would do if confronted with Gollum, and has grown in character far beyond what was required of Bilbo. When it comes time for him to show pity, he is doing it very consciously and obviously, showing a formidable mastery of self-control that frankly astounds Gollum into a reversion to Sméagol. ... and only then does Sméagol come out.

Consider what a child like, willing to please, capering, dog-like servant Sméagol is. None of that is evident in this chapter. In this chapter, Gollum is a callous and clever killer (ooh, don't we love our alliteration! ), very threatening and not in the least anything near Sméagol, who is quite dormantly buried deep within the heart of Gollum.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Ssss. Always poor Smeagol is picked on. Didn't we just go over to see The Baggins out of curiosity, preciouss.

Originally Posted by Jenny Hallu

Smeagol wasn't ever gone from Gollum's character, but I think he just never argued until Frodo came into the picture.

I agree with this; the reason was that Sméagol was too weak until Gollum was chained by his vow to the Ring.

[Lhunardawen]

For a long time, this is the only chapter in The Hobbit that I've read. The riddles never fail to amuse me, and there's always something with reading about Gollum. Unfortunately, I got to know him first in LotR and not here, so there's no "The Hobbit first impression" that I can formulate about him. All I can say is that this Gollum, although in a more child-friendly setting, is definitely the same Gollum who bit off Frodo's finger (to say the least). Tolkien probably had to tone down the violence for the children who are reading, but we who have read LotR know that Gollum is tricksy and dangerous. And what's even scarier is that prior to Bilbo's arrival, he had been pretty much left alone. Surely the sudden appearance of a non-goblin was surprising to him, and we never know what a surprised Gollum can do, because in LotR he was always the one doing the surprising.

Reading this chapter with the entire events of the future in mind is overwhelming. (I wanted to read this again just concentrating on the present events alone, but I couldn't help but look forward into Frodo's time and the Quest, so help me.) It's really amazing how every single thing tied into place. For one, it was stupid for Bilbo to reveal his name, of course, but he didn't know that, or he probably didn't care at that moment. But if he didn't tell Gollum his name, Gollum couldn't have told his tormentors about it, and...well, I'll stop there. A lot more can be said, but this isn't LotR CbC.

Another thing that's interesting here is the element of luck in the guessing game, which had sided with Bilbo for the most part. Eru's intervention? I dare not stretch it. But you'd all probably have to agree with me that Bilbo should have been a goner by the end of this chapter. Of course it doesn't help that one of the previous chapters had already provided foresight that the book will have a happy ending, but we never know what will happen in non-fairy tale children's stories.

More thoughts to come later, I hope.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It's interesting that you should mention the element of "luck" in the riddle game, Lhuna. Both Bilbo and Gollum were lucky, I thought at first. But closer reading has brought me to agree with the idea of Bilbo's luck.

The first answers were easy on both sides, warming up, so to speak. Then Gollum had to dig deep for memories of sun and daisies, as well as for eggs - not really the result of luck, but of thinking. "Fish" was Bilbo's first 'lucky' answer, but the real luck was with "time", which was spoken unintentionally. Divine intervention? Possibly...

The "pockets" riddle was also spoken unintentionally, as a question to himself. Gollum could have passed over it and demanded a genuine riddle, but he accepted it. Did Bilbo have help from 'above'/'outside'?

As a matter of fact, wasn't the pockets question absolutely necessary to the further development of events in LotR? If Gollum hadn't realized that Bilbo had his ring, would he have left the caves to search for it, or thought it must be in there and looked even deeper for it? And if Gollum hadn't left his 'home', would the ring ever have been destroyed?

Yes, I too make the connection with the bigger and later story when I read The Hobbit, especially this chapter. But that's not surprising - after all, it was revised to fit those 'future' events!

[JennyHallu]

If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

True, but could Frodo have destroyed the Ring? I am sure Gollum was necessary.

I've been thinking more about the Riddle Game, which not only gives this chapter its title but also constitutes a major part of it. We know that it progresses from easy to difficult, but is the choice of riddles significant and is there some meaning to the order in which they're given? We have the answers: mountain, teeth, wind, sun on daisy, dark, egg, fish, fish/table/man/stool/cat, time. The abstract concepts (dark, time) come toward the end, but not back to back; there are two complex answers (sun/daisy and the legs riddle).

The last real riddle was about "time" - now, perhaps the fact that my fanfiction is about a Hobbit clockmaker makes me more aware of the connection between a hobbit and time than I would normally be, but it seems that Hobbits (who have few clocks and no watches) measure time by concrete signs - light and dark, hunger (we have Bilbo mentioning the feeling that it must be time for a meal), and so on. The abstract concept doesn't seem as important to them, which would account for Bilbo's trouble with the riddle.

But Gollum, who has lived 'beyond his time' and for whom time must pass slowly, all alone underground, with no light to differentiate and define his days, might have thought about it more.

Do you think this particular riddle has a deeper significance for the story? I'm still pondering...

One detail I noticed was the use of the word "chestnut" for an easy riddle. Now, I've read a lot, but this use of that word is one with which I'm hardly familiar. Its meaning is recognizable from the context, of course, but is it one you would normally know?

[JennyHallu]

A chestnut is an old, frequently repeated, joke, story, song or riddle. I don't know the etymology of the term, but perhaps a botanical chestnut is one particularly easy to crack...

It is idiomatic, but it's a common enough term to describe an easy riddle or brainteaser.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting - the chestnuts I've opened in real life were not at all easy to crack! But I suppose some expressions are more traditional than true... (As if pie baking were easy - or have you ever tried taking candy from a baby?!)

[JennyHallu]

I've never eaten a chestnut so I wouldn't know. However, I just found the origin of the phrase!!

This expression comes from William Dimond's play, The Broken Sword (1816), in which one character keeps repeating the same stories, one of them about a cork tree, and is interrupted each time by another character who says “Chestnut, you mean . . . I have heard you tell the joke twenty-seven times and I am sure it was a chestnut.”

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I doubt Gollum knows that many riddles.

Well, Gollum wasn't a houseless fea who co-habited Smeagol's body (if that was the case, you could be right) - he was just a part of his fea, a fea which maintained his cohesion and experience.

[JennyHallu]

Part of his fea, yes, but I contend his fea was fragmented. I really liked the way that the movie portrayed his multiple personalities, because it really put into words, so to speak, the impression that I got from the book...Think of a modern day person with Multiple Personalities. One persona may not necessarily have the same knowledge of the other personas.

[Raynor]

One persona may not necessarily have the same knowledge of the other personas.

In The shadow of the past, FotR, Gandalf tells about Gollum in the Misty Mountains that "there was nothing more to find out, nothing worth doing, only nasty furtive eating and _resentful remembering_". Anyway, a Gollum without the knowledge possesed by Smeagol would make a poor survivor, even in the wilds, however small that knowledge may be.

Concerning luck and cheating, I think that the following passages are also relevant(from the Prologue):

In the end Bilbo won the game, more by luck (as it seemed) than by wits; for he was stumped at last for a riddle to ask, and cried out, as his hand came upon the ring he lad picked up and forgotten: _What haw I got in my pocket?_ This Gollum failed to answer, though he demanded three guesses. The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this last question was a mere 'question' and not a 'riddle' according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound by his promise.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster.

On this I beg to differ. As someone who crams a lot and lives on procrastination, something is much easier and faster done by me when the deadline is in sight. In the same way I daresay that if not for their knowledge that Sauron is hunting for the Ring, they could have easily dilly-dallied even with Gandalf telling them of the Quest's urgency.

I think that even if Bilbo made no mention of his pocket, Gollum would readily suspect him of stealing it. After all, who else was there when he lost the ring? Somehow I think he would deny that losing it was his fault, especially after being able to keep it secured "for ages and ages," as he said.

[Formendacil]

It seems to have taken me a very long time to post here...

Possibly because, although this is one of my absolute favourite chapters in The Hobbit, I feel I have very little to say.

Therefore, allow me to begin by re-hashing what I've said elsewhere about my thoughts concerning the reworking of this chapter- a reworking that is probably Tolkien's most dramatic showing of his perfectionist trait regarding his written works.

Being only just turned 19- and Canadian, I have only ever owned or read actual copies of The Hobbit from the Third Edition- long after the major changes from the original version, in which Gollum was made a great deal more in keeping with his LotR self.

Personally, I never, not once, felt a difference between the style, tone, and mood of this chapter of the book than the rest of it. If it is, perhaps, a bit darker than those previous, that seemed to fit as Bilbo was now in a much more perilous situation, being trapped underground- alone- with the prospect of running into Goblins, and in danger of being eaten by some foul Gollum-creature.

Nor did I find things to jarring when we return to the original tale in the next chapter, seeing as things remain quite perilous...

Now, regarding my personal feelings towards this chapter, I've always enjoyed the Riddle Contest. Bilbo's luck is very extraordinary, and, if anything, that tended to make me think this chapter rather more childish than the rest, rather than more adult or dark.

Another thought that occurs to me, digging deep back into the recesses of my mind, when I had read The Hobbit, but not yet moved on to the Lord of the Rings, is how remarkable a character Gollum was. Despite only making an appearance here, in one chapter, and that rather early in the book, he makes a vivid impression, and really stays with you. Of the other characters in The Hobbit, only Bilbo, Gandalf, and Smaug really made such an impression on me. Thorin comes close, but only after a book of him. Elrond comes close after reading the Lord of the Rings. Beorn, Balin, and Bombur are all very distant seconds...

Perhaps the rewriting is the reason Gollum was so forceful, but having since read the original version, I'm inclined to think otherwise...

[Thinlómien]

Gollum is undoubtedly a strong character. When the book was read aloud to me I wondered after the book was finished what happened to Gollum. He left an impression so I was delighted (if that's a proper word for I didn't like Gollum) when he reappeared in LotR.

[deal_with_it]

Would a fear of Sting be enough to hold off Gollum long enough for Bilbo to slip the Ring on anyway and basically repeat what happened?

Would he have been eaten?

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Gollum did tacitly go along with The Baggins cheating,
which brings up an interesting question, if nice
Smeagol, who only wants to play the game correctly,
had continued to insist on playing the game properly
instead of helping out Thief Baggins by only asking
for three guesses (a poor trade), would
Bilbo have had to go along with being eaten?
Or, more to the point, how would Tolkien have
gotten Bilbo out of his predicament honorably?

I thought about too, and conclusions I've come to are unfavorable for Bilbo - as it seems to me that both cheated from the outset (at least as the chapter stands in revision) - nor Gollum, neither Bilbo were going to stick to the promise if they've lost.

Kind of undulation of Bilbo's character through the chapter - he starts with fear (as he wakes in the dark), than goes through period of bravery uprise (as he walks in the dark holding on to his sword (yep, holding on to it rather than simply hodling it), than he succumbs to lies through fear (as I do not doubt he would not simply let Gollum eat him), and than again through bravery to pity (or Pity, as Gandalf later put it).

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster.

(How did I miss this back in Feb? ) If Gollum had not left his caves, then Sauron would never have sent the Black Riders to the Shire; but just as critical, Gandalf and Aragorn would not have found Gollum and derived the critical pieces of information that proved the motivation to get Frodo out of the Shire at all. So things could have gone on for a long time the way they had been, except that now the Dark Lord is looking for his Ring, and he is building his forces slowly, and very likely wins through sheer numbers. So it was in the nick of time, and necessary (providentially?) that Gollum left his caves, craving the Ring.

[deagol]

While I think we can all agree that "What have I got in my pocket?" is not a riddle, I'm not sure Bilbo cheated so much as he was a pawn of the one thing I haven't seen addressed in this thread, the will of the Ring itself -- or Sauron's will -- if you prefer. Of course, if we're reading in sequence, we don't know any of this yet. But for the purposes of this discussion, a panoramic view is helpful. It seems clear enough that Bilbo was about to be hot, buttered toast -- he guessed the time riddle only because he couldn't stammer out the words "I need more . . . " and the "What have I got in my pocket?" question was merely an audible thought to displace the riddle that Bilbo couldn't think of. He was doomed. The game was over, except that Smeagol (whom we don't know yet) gave him a break. Why would he do this? Was it really Smeagol asserting what was left of himself in recognition of some lost long ago kinship he felt with Bilbo? I think the entire sequence of events (in the revision) is simply the Ring (Sauron) exercising his will on these two poor creatures, one simply wretched and the other more than a bit silly. The Ring couldn't stay under the mountain any more than it could have stayed at the bottom of Anduin. It was itself, through its master's force of will, trying as best it could to get home. This explains why a perfectly honorable hobbit like Bilbo would even entertain the notion of asking an unfair riddle, and also why a vile wretch like Gollum would let him get away with it.

Either that or I am entirely wrong.