Was it legit?

[Boromir88]

Now, I hope I have you wondering what the heck this title means. Well, to start with a clue, I'm questioning whether Isildur's line had a legitimate claim to the throne of Gondor. But, surprisingly, not whether Arvedui had a legitimate claim, but whether Aragorn's claim was legit.

As we see Arvedui's claim was rejected. He claimed to be the heir of Isildur, and that Isildur had not intended Gondor and Arnor to be split forever. The Council (along with Pelendur) disagrees and declares that only male heirs of Anarion can claim the throne of Gondor. With this being "declared" I wonder if Aragorn's claim is legitimate, or whether he was able to get the throne of Gondor because of the political vaccuum and the struggle Gondor was in.

As we see in the Silmarillion, Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age...

For [Isildur] forsook the South Kingdom for her purposed to take up his father's realm in Eriador

Forsook means to renounce, or give up something you hold dear.

I think Arvedui was right in saying that Isildur had not intended both kingdoms to be split. He was going to take up the high kingship of his father, and he placed Meneldil as ruler of Gondor until that time. However, is Isildur able to take up this claim? Does he not get ambushed and killed before he was able to? (For I don't know if Letters which I have not read sort of expands on this) If that's the case, then Isildur's line does not have a claim to the throne. And that the Council, finding a loophole, declares that since Isildur "renounced" his rule in Gondor, Arvedui has no claim.

So, now I ask why is Aragorn able to claim the throne? If supposedly he has no claim. Is it because there's a difference that Aragorn claims to be Elendil's heir, therefor wishing taking up the claim of high kingship and ruling both kingdoms? Or, is it the timely fashion that Aragorn decides to make his claim.

He arrives on Pelennor and is seen by Gondor as their "saviour." Also, the political vaccuum that's created with Denethor's death, Gandalf temporarily taking command, then Imrahil, and then Faramir, with this political strife does it make Aragorn's claim to the throne easier for him? Does he have a claim or is it his timely arrival...or possibly both? Something, I've kind of been wondering about.

[Eonwe]

If that's the case, then Isildur's line does not have a claim to the throne.

I see no reason why Valandil shouldn't receive the High Kingship like his father would have.

In Appendix A, we find Arvedui's argument:

But when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his fatehr, and committed the rule in the Sourth in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor inted that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.

It never says (here at least) why Arvedui's claim of the High Kingship is regected in Gondor. But it does say:

The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of the King Ondoher, played a chief part.

This suggests to me that there was some shady dealing going on. I think that Arvedui's claim is valid. And Aragorn's would certainly be valid, because the line of the King dies out completely, so he would be the closest with the highest claim to the throne.

[Kuruharan]

I guess it all depends on how binding one considers precedent to be. If you think precedent is most important, then Aragorn's claim was probably illegitimate.

However, I think we can safely infer that Tolkien's view was that Aragorn was the legitimate heir and that the Gondorians made a mistake in refusing Arvedui. On the other hand, I think it is also hard to deny that the power vacuum had something to do with Gondor's willingness to accept Aragorn.

As a slight aside, I'm not too sure that Arvedui would have been such a great king even had he been accepted. That may have played a role in why Gondor rejected him.

For more on that click here.

[Formendacil]

I agree with all that Kuruharan said, but to add...

In my opinion, the fact that Pelendur and the Council of Gondor rejected Arvedui's claim does not mean that it was therefore not legit. Gondor was ruled by the laws of Numenor, laws under which the eldest child (or son, depending on the reading) inherited from his father, and so on down the line.

Gondor was founded by both Isildur and Anarion. Ergo, their descendents should each have been able to claim it's kingship. By rights, Gondor should have had two kings.

Of course, Arnor threw a bit of a monkeywrench into things by the fact that Isildur stood to inherit from Elendil there- and the fact that Elendil was acknowledged as High King of the Numenoreans in Exile- a fact that included the Kingdom of Gondor, and was acknowledged by its citizens.

Therefore, the claim of the Line of Isildur as the Overlords of the Realms in Exile (including the Kingship of Gondor) was perfectly correct under the Numenorean laws of succession. And after the termination of the Line of Anarion, they had a right to return to the direct Kingship of both kingdom- a right they had never clearly forfeited in the first place.

The laws of Numenor were such that Arvedui, as Heir of Isildur, should have become King of Gondor as well as of Arnor. Pelendur and the Council did not, in my opinion, have the authority to change the laws of succession. As C.S. Lewis so eloquently wrote in The Horse and His Boy:

'But, Father, couldn't you make whichever you like to be the next King?"

"No. The King's under the law, for it's the law makes him a king. Hast no more power to start away from thy crown than any sentry from his post.'

I would say that same idea applies to the Gondorian throne as it does to Lewis' Archenlandish throne- if not moreso.

It was, perhaps, permissible for Pelendur and the Council to put forward Earnil as the Heir of Anarion, and a distinctly seperate Heir for the Southern Line. As I said earlier, both founding kings had the right to be represented on the throne, and the heritage of Firiel would be easily lost in the patrilineal descent of Arvedui's house.

Therefore, I am willing to see Earnil and Earnur as legitimate Kings of Gondor, while still championing the Line of Isildur as having a completely legitimate claim to Gondor's throne- and to the High Kingship of the Kingdoms in Exile as a whole (thus making them Overlords of Gondor).

[Boromir88]

This suggests to me that there was some shady dealing going on. I think that Arvedui's claim is valid. And Aragorn's would certainly be valid, because the line of the King dies out completely, so he would be the closest with the highest claim to the throne.~Eonwe

I definitely think one side was twisting things around...

The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belong solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anarion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

Arvedui: "He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever."

(bolding mine)
So one side said he did relinquish his throne, the other side says he didn't, obviously one is lying. Though I would think of all people the Council and Pelendur were the ones lying in the Silmarillion...

For [Isildur] forsook the South Kingdom for he purposed to take up his father's realm in Eriador.

Forsook meaning to give up, or renounce. So, what did Isildur "renounce" well the South Kingdom, Gondor, his royalty.

I do agree with Arvedui that Isildur did not mean for the two kingdoms to be divided, I actually think he probably was going to take up the High Kingship of his father. However, does he ever get to do this? As we know he's ambushed and killed. If not then the Council appears to have made the right decision in Arvedui's claim.

We also must recognize the difference between Arvedui and Aragorn's claim. Arvedui claimed to be Isildur's heir, and the Council says, aint gonna work because Isildur gave up his reign here. Aragorn claims to be Elendil's heir, taking up the high kingship and reuniniting the two Kingdoms. Which, is I think the big difference between Aragorn's claim and Arvedui's claim.

But, I have to wonder, along with Kuru, was it more of Aragorn's "claim," or the fact of his timely arrival on Pelennor, saving Gondor, and the political vaccuum in Gondor that caused him to get the crown?

Pelendur and the Council did not, in my opinion, have the authority to change the laws of succession.~Formendacil

Well, they did have the power, clearly as we see in Arvedui's case. Did they "technically" have the power, I don't know. But, clearly that's what they did, and I think it was Kransha who did a thread similar talking about Arvedui's claim, the Stewards seemed to have the power whether they willingly backed down to the claimed King or not. My understanding was, if Faramir hadn't been such a good guy and did the right thing in letting Aragorn take the crown, he could have told Aragorn no.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well, they did have the power, clearly as we see in Arvedui's case. Did they "technically" have the power, I don't know. But, clearly that's what they did, and I think it was Kransha who did a thread similar talking about Arvedui's claim, the Stewards seemed to have the power whether they willingly backed down to the claimed King or not. My understanding was, if Faramir hadn't been such a good guy and did the right thing in letting Aragorn take the crown, he could have told Aragorn no.

Okay, Pelendur (and, for the same reasons, Faramir) had the POWER to refuse Arvedui (and Aragorn). They had the power in the sense that if they said no, there really wasn't a way Arvedui or Aragorn would likely be able to forcibly change that- the Steward being the highest authority in Gondor without a King.

My point is that they didn't have the legitimate authority to do so. To change the laws of succession would be an abuse of their power- something that LEGALLY they could not do. While, in actual fact, they could prevent someone from taking the throne, it was not within their "constitutional rights" to prevent the legitimate heir from inheriting.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by boromir88

Well, they did have the power, clearly as we see in Arvedui's case. Did they "technically" have the power, I don't know. But, clearly that's what they did, and I think it was Kransha who did a thread similar talking about Arvedui's claim, the Stewards seemed to have the power whether they willingly backed down to the claimed King or not. My understanding was, if Faramir hadn't been such a good guy and did the right thing in letting Aragorn take the crown, he could have told Aragorn no.

it says in the appendix that Arvedui didn't have the strength of arms and the strength of will to oppose the Council. this suggests to me that he had somekinds of grouds to press his claims, but the fact that teh council just dropped the matter without answering his claim tells me that they would have driven it to war with arnor, who was already greatly weakened by civil war and teh wars with angmar. he (wisely, i think) just let the matter drop instead of pressing the issue.

as for aragorn's situation, he had allot going for him. faramir was apprenetly willing to let teh king return, aragorn found the white tree, gandalf and elrond backed him, and he did have a legal right to the throne, since there was no heir. not to mention that he had just saved the day militarily, and was the only one capable of healing the Black Breath, i think people look reather favorably on him.

i think the bottom line is that Aragorn was a direct desendent of Isildur, who after Elendil, was the High King. I think that pretty much makes Aragorn the High King as well.

[Laitoste]

One thing to think about is the soures of legitimacy in a political sense. It is bestowed by the people of a state and can come from numerous areas, such as tradition (like a king), moral/religious (like the Pope), personality/charisma (like the Perons in Argentina), skills and knowledge, and outcomes/results. Aragorn had political legitimacy under skills/knowledge, tradition (though this is the debate...), and arguably, personality/charisma.

Just something to consider in this discussion (yay comparative politics!)...

[Mänwe]

“For [Isildur] forsook the South Kingdom for her purposed to take up his father's realm in Eriador” – (Silmarillion, Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age)

Boromir88 sows the first seed of doubt to the legitimacy of Aragorn’s claim to the thrown of Gondor. And rightly concludes that one side, those of the Southern line believe that Isuldur did indeed “forsake” his rulership, while the Northern line believes he did not.

Though to me it at first appears a matter of “interpretation”, to all intent and purposes Isuldur “granted” rulership to the son of Anárion while he took rulership of the north. He did not himself state that he was ‘renouncing’ his claim to rulership of the South. For as has been said he was the oldest son of Elendil and rightly King to all Númenorean lands.

Originally posted by Formendacil

“Gondor was founded by both Isildur and Anarion. Ergo, their descendents should each have been able to claim it's kingship. By rights, Gondor should have had two kings.”

Therefore I cannot agree with what you say here Formendacil.

“…and after the days of Pelendur the Stewardship became hereditary as a kingship, from father to son or nearest kin.” – (Appendix A, The Stewards)

Kingship was ever passed to the eldest, by their own laws there would only ever be one ruling King of all the land. Regardless of how many founded it, as the eldest, responsibility would be Isuldur’s. Therefore I am in complete agreement with Boromir88 that Isuldur did not mean to split the Kingdom’s.

Boromir88, I think that his death at the hands of the orcs served only to hasten their splitting, the matter of passing rulership over to Anárion’s son was not cleared up. And with no one else attempting to make sence of what he had meant, it became “normal” for the arrangement to continue.

Another question we should ask ourselves was why did no-one else from the Northern line attempt to claim rulership over Gondor being descendants of the eldest son?

Arvedui’s was the first to do so, it would seem logical that his case was strengthened by the demise of Ondoher and his son’s, also with the added fact that he was wed to the only direct descendant of Ondoher, Fíriel, his daughter.

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher.” – (Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

For surely Fíriel under Númenorean law become Queen? The claim was rejected with the following reason which has been quoted already;

"'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor." – (Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

To which Arvedui cunningly replies;

"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless." - (Notes, Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

Ingenious, he should have the Council up against the wall now. The note refers to the following;

“That law was made in Númenor (as we have learned from the King) when Tar-Aldarion, the sixth king, left only one child, a daughter. She became the first Ruling Queen, Tar-Ancalimë” – (Notes, Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

So her being crowned Queen would have meant he was King. And so I am in full support with Formendacil that Arvedui’s claim was;

Oringinally posted by Formendacil

“…perfectly correct under the Numenorean laws of succession. And after the termination of the Line of Anarion, they had a right to return to the direct Kingship of both kingdom- a right they had never clearly forfeited in the first place.”

The only “loophole” the Council had I believe was their interpretation of Isuldur’s command; though the line was not completely terminated, genetically speaking we still have Fíriel and her sons, albeit they are now under their father’s lineage.

And so to conclude I personally believe the Council were wrong to deny Arvedui, despite the slim legitimacy of Eärnil.

Originally posted by Formendacil

“It was, perhaps, permissible for Pelendur and the Council to put forward Earnil as the Heir of Anarion”

“The crown was claimed by Eärnil, the victorious captain; and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dúnedain in Gondor, since he was of the royal house. He was the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil II.” – (Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

So he has lineage to put forward,

“'He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and the needs of the South-kingdom,…” - (Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

The “needs of the South-kingdom”, perhaps this is where we might suggest a hint of foul play. Though at this time there was hardly any “peace” to speak of, and Eärnil was certainly a most capable commander; “Victorious captain” referring to his victories at the crossing of the Poros and in Ithilien. And at the death of Eärnil’s son came the end of the Kings of the Southern Line.

I would also like to highlight the point that Eonwe made;

Originally quoted by Eonwe

“…it says in the appendix that Arvedui didn't have the strength of arms and the strength of will to oppose the Council.”

Reading the relevant part of the Appendix there is a strong flavour for the “trouble” that the Northern kingdom was in. Gondor it may be said was at its peak of military power as Eonwe beautifully states.

“So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor.” - (Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.)

Perhaps their “power” in refusing Arvedui was their military power.

And so to Aragorn’s claim; Boromir88 you say that you feel that the difference between the basis of the claims, that being descendant of Isuldur or Elendil was a major difference, how so? I myself tend to lean toward the fact that the Southern Line had no King as the greater difference. It was ruled by stewards whose oath it was to return the Kingdom to the returned king.

“Each new Steward indeed took office with the oath 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.' But these soon became words of ritual little heeded, for the Stewards exercised all the power of the kings. Yet many in Gondor still believed that a king would indeed return in some time to come; and some remembered the ancient line of the North, which it was rumoured still lived on in the shadows. But against such thoughts the Ruling Stewards hardened their hearts.” – (Appendix A, The Stewards) [my bold]

Therefore I can see exactly why Faramir gave up his office, there was no one in the Kingdom with a closer lineage with Elendil than Aragorn, thus rightly King, and very legitimate.

[Alcuin]

Aranarth’s descendents never relinquished their claim on the throne of Gondor. Even as Chieftains of the Dúnedain of the North, they technically maintained their claim on the throne; but until Aragorn led the armies of Gondor to victory, as had Eärnil II before him, they had no means to bring home that claim.

Arvedui’s primary claim was based not upon his lineage, which was solid – he was heir to the throne of Arnor – but upon that of Fíriel, his wife, last surviving child of King Ondoher. Pelendur the Steward, Denethor’s ancestor, led the Royal Council of Gondor in rejecting the claim, no doubt in part because Arthedain was abysmally unsuccessful in fending off Angmar’s military advances. In addition, Gondor in its history had achieved tremendous heights of power under the Four Ship-kings that recalled the glory of Númenor, while Arnor had declined from the day of the disaster at Gladden Fields when Isildur was killed. Whom should they choose: the daughter of the last king and her unproven husband, heir to a kingdom with but a tenuous hold on existence, or her third cousin, a victorious captain of royal lineage who pulled the country’s bacon out of the fire when the king and both his sons, brothers of the other claimant, were killed, the younger brother (Prince Faramir, son of King Ondoher) because he impetuously went to battle when he was ordered to stay at home?

In the end, the Council of Gondor took the advice of Pelendur the Steward, rejected the claim of Arvedui (and Fíriel – don’t forget her!), after which the position of Steward, which from the days of Minardil the twenty-second king (excluding the reign of Castamir the Usurper) was chosen from the House of Húrin of Emyn Arnen, was made hereditary. Now, who do you suppose did that? Only the king would have such authority … I wonder why Eärnil would do that? Having a permanent steward, given that the dynasty was almost extinguished in the last war, was a wise and excellent move on the part of Eärnil II – but it didn’t hurt that Pelendur, the second-most powerful man in the kingdom, was Eärnil’s political ally and deeply in his debt.

Mardil and his family, Tolkien says, were related by blood to the line of Anárion, and could trace their descent to Anárion through daughters of the line; so the Ruling Stewards were exactly what they appeared to be: kings by default, but not in name. In Peoples of Middle-earth, “The Heirs of Elendil”, “The Stewards of Gondor”, there is a passage that reads,

These may be added [to the descendants of Anárion or Anárioni], for though not in direct line, the Hurinionath, the family to which Pelendur and Mardil belonged, were of Númenórean blood hardly less pure than that of the kings, and undoubtedly had some share in the actual blood of Elendil and Anárion.

The Hurinionath refers to “the House of Húrin, for they were descendants of the Steward of King Minardil…, Húrin of Emyn Arnen, a man of high Númenórean race.” (Return of the King, “Appendix A”) Minardil was the great-grandson of Eldacar.

Once the North Kingdom fell, there were basically no people to rule there: Arnor ceased to exist. This is something that people often forget about the story: the armies of Angmar killed almost all the Dúnedain of Arnor in the war of III 1974-1975. They weren’t taking them as slaves or permitting them to escape: they killed them – all of them. Only a bare remnant survived, people who must have made it to Rivendell or Lindon, who were not trapped and massacred after the siege and fall of Fornost. Aranarth, the son of Arvedui and Fíriel, ceases to call himself “king” and takes the title of “chieftain.” (This is a lot like what Elrond did after the fall of Gil-galad: Elrond is rightfully king of the Sindar as the only heir of Thingol (by Elwing – Dior Eluchíl – Lúthien – Thingol), and the rightful king of the remaining Noldor (by Eärendil – Idril Celebrindal – Turgon – Fingolfin – Finwë), but he never claims any title in Middle-earth at all.) The Rangers of the Northern Dúnedain are their military force, trying to keep the last remaining folks alive.

With no kingdom, and almost no people, the Chieftains were paupers in comparison to the nobility of Gondor, many of whom had a better (nearer) claim to the throne than Arvedui, although none of them had a better claim than Fíriel and her son Aranarth. When King Eärnur went away “with a small escort of knights” to meet the Lord of the Nazgûl in single combat in III 2043 (RotK, “Appendix A”, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion”), the Council could not come to any decision about who was the best candidate: it certainly couldn’t be Aranarth, because they had just rejected his father’s claim; and remembering the Kin-strife, they left Mardil the Steward in charge, a reasonable decision: after all, according to Tolkien Mardil was descended from Elendil by a distaff line (as were no doubt many others of the nobility of Gondor), and his grandfather Pelendur was most directly responsible for the decision to choose Eärnur’s father as king. This is reflected in the arrogantly proud and bitter words of Denethor to Gandalf in the mausoleum of the Stewards:

I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.

The Kings of Númenor and Elendil and Isildur (and later Aragorn II) used the title “High King,” implying that there were other, lesser kings around. We know that in some instances there were, at least in Middle-earth: Isildur and Anárion were kings in Gondor under the suzerainty of their father, Elendil; Meneldil son of Anárion as king of Gondor was subject to his uncle, Isildur, High King of the Dúnedain, until the disaster at Gladden Fields; and Éomer, while technically independent of Aragorn, deferred to the latter’s leadership throughout his long reign. (Those two lines probably merged in the Fourth Age.) In addition, we know that at least during Aragorn’s reign, there were princes in Dol Amroth and Emyn Arden; and there was a Prince of Cardolan until III 1409 that might not have been of royal descent. But specifically of Meneldil, footnote 10 of “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields” in Unfinished Tales says that,

Meneldil was the nephew of Isildur, son of Isildur's younger brother Anárion, slain in the siege of Barad-dûr. Isildur had established Meneldil as King of Gondor. He was a man of courtesy, but farseeing, and he did not reveal his thoughts. He was in fact well-pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons, and hoped that affairs in the North would keep them long occupied.

The Tomb of Elendil was raised by Isildur as Heir of Elendil, High King of the Dúnedain, and direct OverKing of Gondor (ibid., “Cirion and Eorl”, section (iii)). He took Meneldil with him when he did this: Meneldil was apparently King of Gondor at this point, but he clearly recognized the overlordship of his uncle.

We should remember that when Isildur died in III 2, his son Valandil was only 13 years old and still living in Imladris; Meneldil was 125, and a seasoned veteran of the war against Sauron. Valandil did not officially succeed to the throne of Arnor until III 10, when he reached his 21st year. Arnor never regained its strength after the death of Isildur and his escort: in Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”, it is said that

Valandil took up his abode in Annúminas, but his folk were diminished, and of the Númenóreans and of the Men of Eriador there remained now too few to people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built…

Valandil was a child when Meneldil effected his independence from Arnor; when adult and king, he had not the military power to press his rightful claims against his cousin Meneldil; even had he done so, he would no doubt have been acting against the wishes and advice of his closest and most important allies, Círdan and Elrond, in whose house he grew up. Meneldil obtains his independence de facto: Arnor and Valandil were too weak to press their claims, they were too far away to matter politically, and it is unlikely that either the majority of the Northern Dúnedain or their Elven allies saw any practical gain, any upside, in pursuing the matter.

To put it bluntly, Meneldil usurped Isildur’s suzerainty unto himself. The kings of Arnor and Arthedain never forgot it, and they never relinquished their claim to suzerainty over Gondor. (A similar situation apparently arose among the Arnorian daughter kingdoms of Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur, which led to the intervention of Angmar on behalf of the Hillmen of Rhudaur, who usurped the rule of that petty kingdom, eventually resulting in the ruin of Arnor.) We can still sense the opportunism and arrogance of Meneldil centuries later in the answer of the Council of Gondor to Princess Fíriel of Gondor and Arthedain and her husband Prince Arvedui (Arvedui’s father Araphant was king until III 1964, but Eärnil was made king in III 1945 after a one-year interregnum: Fíriel and Arvedui were still princess and prince; the citation is from RotK, “Appendix A”):

“The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor.”

This was untrue: Meneldil had ignored his obligations to Valandil and used his greater power to enforce his independence. The response of Arvedui, Aranarth, and the Council of Arthedain was the correct response (ibid.):

“Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.

“Moreover, in Númenor of old the scepter descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless.”

what is particularly telling is what follows immediately in the text of the Appendix of RotK (all emphasis mine):

To this Gondor made no answer. The crown was claimed by Eärnil, the victorious captain; and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dúnedain in Gondor, since he was of the royal house. … Arvedui did not press his claim; for he had neither the power nor the will to oppose the choice of the Dúnedain of Gondor; yet the claim was never forgotten by his descendants even when their kingship had passed away.

There are three very important points in this last passage:

1. The Dúnedain could themselves choose a king as long as he was of the cynn (Anglo-Saxon, “family, kin” – it is precisely our modern word, kin, and the root of the word king, A-S cyning, “of the kindred (royal family)”, traditionally placed at the end of the name: “‘Théoden King ... is dead. But Éomer King now rides in the battle: he with the white crest in the wind,’” from “Battle of the Pelennor Fields”); indeed the House of Elendil based its kingship upon such an acceptance, for surely there remained representatives of the House of Elros among the Black Númenóreans (King’s Men) of Middle-earth immediately after the ruin of Númenor;
2. the Chieftains of the Dúnedain never relinquished their claim; and
3. the Council of Gondor never answered the final claim of Arvedui and Fíriel.

By tradition, the Chieftains of the Dúnedain were apparently on very solid ground, and the Dúnedain were a people socially bound by tradition. Note also that this is the second rebuttal of the Heirs of Isildur by the rulers of Gondor; ignoring Valandil’s rights as High King was the first; Aragorn’s claim was the third made upon the crown of Gondor by the Heirs of Isildur, and the only one not refuted.

Before finally addressing the question of the thread, which is, if I may rephrase it, Upon what was the royal claim of Aragorn based?, let me will speculate for a moment on how the situation arose that Arnor had a king, but no people; while Gondor had people, but no king . Morgul practices in Arnor, particularly in Rhudaur (see Faramir’s comments that, “‘It is not said that evil arts were ever practiced in Gondor,’” which always struck me as a polite way of saying, but it is said they were in Arnor. “Window on the West”, Two Towers), led to the fragmentation of Arnor and a bloody civil war among the Dúnedain of the North, so that before Angmar was recognized as a threat to the Dúnedain states, they wantonly killed one another off for control of territory, assets, and resources. The destruction of the people of Arnor might be seen in this light as divine retribution for their impiety.

On Gondor’s side of this grand equation, the elevation of Eärnil II to the throne was not a sound decision. Malbeth the Seer prophesied before Araphant when his son was born (RotK, “Appendix A” “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion”),

Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm.

The results of that bad decision, made in III 1945, came quickly upon both kingdoms: Arthedain fell and its people were slaughtered 30 years later; and after 27 more years, in III 2002 (from Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”),

…in the days of Eärnil [the Nazgûl] made their first stroke, and they came by night out of Mordor over the passes of the Mountains of Shadow, and took Minas Ithil for their abode… Minas Morgul was ever at war with Minas Anor in the west.

Eärnil lacked the insight and experience to deal with the Nazgûl, something the commanders of Arthedain possessed in spades; Arthedain lacked the means to defend itself from the assault of Angmar, and Gondor was slow to come to its aid, when timely assistance might have saved the struggling kingdom. Moreover, Eärnur was a great captain, but a poor king (ibid.):

Eärnur was a man like his father in valor, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. ...he seem[ed] rather a champion than a captain or king...

When Eärnur received the crown in 2043 the King of Minas Morgul challenged him to single combat... For that time Mardil the Steward restrained the wrath of the king. ...

Eärnur had held the crown only seven years when the Lord of Morgul repeated his challenge... Then Mardil could no longer restrain him, and he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul. None of that riding were ever heard of again. ... Mardil the Good Steward ruled Gondor in his name for many years.

So Arnor’s people died, and Gondor’s kings died.

Finally, Aragorn’s the claims to the throne were set forth by Faramir, last Ruling Steward of Gondor, who recognized Aragorn as king when he awoke in the Houses of Healing. Look again as Faramir proclaimed Aragorn to the people of Minas Tirith in Return of the King, “The Steward and the King”.

Men of Gondor hear now the Steward of this Realm! Behold! one has come to claim the kingship again at last. Here is Aragorn son of Arathorn, chieftain of the Dúnedain of Arnor, Captain of the Host of the West, bearer of the Star of the North, wielder of the Sword Reforged, victorious in battle, whose hands bring healing, the Elfstone, Elessar of the line of Valandil, Isildur’s son, Elendil’s son of Númenor. Shall he be king and enter into the City and dwell there?

Aragorn’s claim was based upon these things: He was:

1. the successful military chief of the Rangers of the North,
2. commander of the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan,
3. rightful king of the Lost Realm of Arnor (edit: an implicit acceptance of the ancient Arnorian claim of High Kingship),
4. the bearer of Narsil, the Sword of Elendil, reforged,
5. victor of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the Gates of Morannon (essentially the same claim as Eärnil II),
6. the man who healed the victims of the Black Breath (“The hands of the king are the hands of a healer”, RotK, “Houses of Healing”), and
7. the Heir of Elendil, founder and High King of both kingdoms of the exiled Dúnedain in Middle-earth.

When Aragorn took the crown, he spoke in Quenya the same words his forefather Elendil had spoken when he arrived from Númenor:

Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.

The foundation of the claim was that Aragorn was the Heir of Elendil (which overcame the objections of being the Heir of Isildur); he was the one foretold by prophecy who bore Narsil reforged; he healed those struck down by the Black Breath (“‘And so the rightful king could ever be known.’” RotK, “Houses of Healing”); and he was the victorious commander who saved Minas Tirith and the Rohirrim from ruin before and then the bold and daring commander who led them to victory before the Black Gates. Both Faramir the Ruling Steward and Imrahil Prince of Dol Amroth, the two greatest lords of the realm, openly and publicly recognized Aragorn’s claim. Last but not least, he was accepted by the exultant acclimation of the People of Minas Tirith.

That’s a pretty solid claim to the throne. In addition, Aragorn might add the old claim of Arvedui, that he was as Heir of Isildur by right High King of both Arnor and Gondor, which title he took upon his coronation; and the old claim of Fíriel, that his foremother was the rightful Ruling Queen as the only surviving child of Ondoher, twenty-eighth King of Gondor. Their descendants never relinquished those claims, nor were they ever refuted by the Council of Gondor.

[Formendacil]

My, has an old thread been dug up here.... and I see myself prominently quoted. It's difficult to defend one's position after a year and more of not thinking on it, but I wish to quibble in my defence over the following:

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Originally posted by Formendacil

Therefore I cannot agree with what you say here Formendacil.

“…and after the days of Pelendur the Stewardship became hereditary as a kingship, from father to son or nearest kin.” – (Appendix A, The Stewards)

Kingship was ever passed to the eldest, by their own laws there would only ever be one ruling King of all the land. Regardless of how many founded it, as the eldest, responsibility would be Isuldur’s. Therefore I am in complete agreement with Boromir88 that Isuldur did not mean to split the Kingdom’s.

There were two thrones in Osgiliath: one for Isildur, and one for Anárion. There were twin cities flanking the great capital: Minas Ithil for Isildur and Minas Anor for Anárion.

I agree that Isildur never intended to split the two kingdoms, but I do not think that it follows, necessarily, that Gondor was not intended originally to have two kings. Possibly, the junior king was always intended to be the younger brother or kinsman of the senior king (through whom the lineage descended). Possibly the line of Anárion only retained the throne through the unhappy chance of the Gladden Fields.

It is even possible that Gondor was only intended to have one king.

However, there is evidence that Gondor was intended to be ruled under two kings, not unlike how the Roman Empires (West and East) under Diocletian were ruled each by a senior emperor, the Augustus, and a junior emperor, the Caesar. I'm not sure I'd call it likely. But possible. And not to be summarily ruled out.

[Boromir88]

Wow, there is no way I have the time to post a worthy reply to all of these insightful, excellent posts. So, here's just a few comments:

Manwe, and the whole matter of interpretation comes in that did Isildur relinquish his Rulership over Gondor or didn't he? Forsook certainly makes it sound like he gave it up; however we can question whether he actually did or not. If I'm not mistaken before his death Isildur made clear and well that he was the High King and his eldest son would be his heir. As I think Alcuin showed quite well in his last post. That Meneldil (and I would think therefor Gondor at the time to) recognized Isildur's High Kingship and rulership over them. From Boromir's perspective:

"All know in Gondor that he [Isildur] went first to Minas Anor and dwelt there a while with his nephew Meneldil, instructing him, before he committed to him the rule of the South Kingdom."~Council of Elrond

This is through Boromir's eyes who seems to know a bit about the situation. And if he aware I'm sure the royal class in Gondor (at the time of Arvedui's claim) would also be aware of the conditions in which Isildur departed. I think it is in Unfinished Tales where Isildur does claim the High Kingship (and makes it well known that he is going to) before he dies near the Gladden Fields. Therefor I think one could question the Council's decision as it was being 'pressured' by Pelendur, and we get a sense that there is some shadiness in the whole rejection of Arvedui's claim.

Therefore I can see exactly why Faramir gave up his office, there was no one in the Kingdom with a closer lineage with Elendil than Aragorn, thus rightly King, and very legitimate.

The thing is when Arvedui's claim was rejected by the Council virtually had thrown any further claims from Isildur out the window. By claiming that only male heirs from the line of Anarion can claim the throne of Gondor, any claim from Isildur's line could be thrown out the window. Now, I did make that statement long before I knew Isildur did take up the High Kingship before his death...however I think it still stands; as clearly the deciding Council did not recognize claim from Isildur's line.

You could certainly make the argument that Faramir was a good Steward and therefor did exactly what a Steward should have done. But in dealing with this situation Tolkien cast the Stewards (as a whole) in bad light. As this I think shows:

“Each new Steward indeed took office with the oath 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.' But these soon became words of ritual little heeded, for the Stewards exercised all the power of the kings. Yet many in Gondor still believed that a king would indeed return in some time to come; and some remembered the ancient line of the North, which it was rumoured still lived on in the shadows. But against such thoughts the Ruling Stewards hardened their hearts.”~Appendix A: The Stewards

At first the Stewards took their oath seriously and I would guess that Mardil did as he is portrayed in better light than the Ruling Stewards that are to follow him:

Then Mardil could no longer restrain him, and he rod with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul; but since there were no witnesses of his death, Mardil the Good Steward ruled Gondor in his name for many years.~Appendix A: Gondor and the heirs of Anarion

Mardil is called the 'Good Steward' and if he was concerned about acquiring and keeping power in Gondor I doubt he would have tried to dissuade King Earnur from riding out into his death wish. So you could certainly say that Mardil upheld his oath, and I think you can make the argument that Faramir did too. Though not all (if even the majority) of the Stewards were like Mardil or Faramir. Which is why Tolkien puts them into bad light when dealing with the situation over Gondor's Kingship. Because of Pelendur and the Council's decision it gave the Stewards the 'legal muscle' to reject any person claiming descent from Isildur. As Denethor puts it:

'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of Lordship.'~The Pyre of Denethor

Because of the Council's decision in rejecting Arvedui's claim the Stewards had every sort of legal power to reject anyone who claimed the throne by descent of Isildur. As Denethor says even had Aragorn proved his claim, he's still from Isildur's line; and that line is bereft of Lordship in Gondor. Of course you could argue that the Stewards were wrong in this case and protecting their own power...nevertheless according to Gondor's decision Isildur's line had no claim to the throne. Aragorn probably knew full well that Isildur's claim was rejected, and therefor he tried a different route...claiming to be Elendil's heir. Nevertheless, Aragorn's claim no matter what the 'Stewards oath' was; was pretty weak. For the life of me I can't find it; but somwhere in Faramir's long discussions with Frodo I remember him mentioning it's going to take more than Aragorn's claim to get him accepted as King. Simply because the Ruling Stewards soon paid no heed to their oath they were concerned about staying in power. Certainly that was Denethor's primary concern:

Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between Orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as a victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a "political" leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.~Letter 183

Though I would say that Faramir and Mardil were some exceptions to the typical Ruling Steward that Tolkien put into some bad perspective.

Alcuin, amazing post, just one minor quibble of mine:

The Council of Gondor never answered the final claim of Arvedui and Fíriel.

Actually they did make an answer, they just didn't answer Arvedui the second time. The first time Arvedui asserts this claim, the Council rejects it:

“The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor.”

In which case Arvedui tries again saying that in Numenor it was different, however he does admit that this descent through a daughter was not practiced in Gondor:

'It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such is the law of our people...'

This is Arvedui's second attempt to claim through Firiel; as the Council already rejected it prior. So either they were in the wrong and they simply could not answer it and were stumped. Or they believed they were right and they already made their answer clear (as to Arvedui claiming through Firiel); feeling no need to repeat it.

Formendacil while the rule of Gondor was 'split up' so to say...I think that was to simply rule a vast kingdom more effectively. There was a High King that had Rulership over everything...which I think is set up in Alcuin's post. That prior to Isildur leaving Meneldil acknowledged Isildur's rulership over him and hoped he would be gone for a long long time.

Oi, my few comments have turned into a big spiel.

[Mänwe]

“'He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and the needs of the South-kingdom,…” - (Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.) [My bold]

This was the last answer I believe to his claim, through Earnil.

[Alcuin]

Boromir88, thank you for your kind words.

I think that Arvedui, Fíriel, Araphant, and the rest of the Council of Arthedain were on solid legal ground. They probably checked and rechecked their case with Elrond as well, who had from far or near kept up with the whole history of the Númenóreans from the day he and his brother Elros parted company in Lindon among the ruins of Beleriand.

I also think it very likely that well before the Council of Gondor made its decision, Pelendur the Steward had made his. As acting regent and provisional head of the Council, he fashioned and guided the debate.

There are clues that each side realized a bad decision had been reached as the War of the Ring drew near. First, the Chieftains of the Dúnedain never rescinded their claim, although they must have known it would never be met. (Aragorn’s situation must be seen as something miraculous: like Frodo, his deeds put him in the same league as Elendil and Eärendil and Tuor; but in addition, his claim to the crown was not based upon those put forward by Arvedui and Fíriel.) In such situations, intransigence and fortitude combine, as generation after generation refuses to surrender the cause despite overwhelming odds. (E.g., the periodic lawsuits still filed against the City of Boston or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by descendants of Loyalists exiled to Canada following the American Revolution: they will never prevail, but neither will they ever stop, persisting as much in protest as any other reason.)

There is an interesting twist in this situation: the Stewards could never become kings of Gondor, either, despite their lineage through their foremothers to Elendil: by their own actions, their own claims were eliminated by the Council’s ruling. For this reason, and no other, I believe they lost their claim to the throne. They did, however, exercise royal authority in the absence of the monarch, and it was desire this power that first began to twist Denethor, even in his youth, I believe; it also created animosity on the part of Boromir towards Aragorn, although in the end, Boromir repented of this, assented to Aragorn’s authority and by giving his life for Merry and Pippin, died in peace.

There is a difference between doing what is lawful and doing what is both right and lawful. Laws can be (and too often are) twisted to the purposes of those who judge them. It was perfectly lawful for Gondor to choose either Fíriel and Arvedui as its rulers in III 1975 or to choose Eärnil. It was not right to choose Eärnil, and for its prideful decision Gondor paid by losing its king the following generation, terminating the House of Anárion.

Last but not least, remember in my earlier post (sorry for the length: I am verbose) that I mentioned that one of the seven claims to the throne of Gondor set forth by Faramir was that Aragorn was “bearer of the Star of the North,” that is, rightful King of Arnor, and so by implication, Faramir, speaking both as Ruling Steward and as head of the Council of Gondor (until Aragorn became king), politely but formally set aside Gondor’s age-old rejection of the High Kingship of the rulers of Arnor: Aragorn took the throne not as King of Gondor, but as High King of Arnor and Gondor.

[Boromir_bg]

or whether he was able to get the throne of Gondor because of the political vaccuum and the struggle Gondor was in.

Mostly because of that I think.And because they saw a great leader in him.

[Alcuin]

So far, no has discussed Salic Law and agnatic succession in this thread, but surely Salic Law was something of interest to Tolkien? Its sixth century roots put it square in the middle of Tolkien’s investigations into the literature of the period. There is, in addition to this, a series of wars based upon differing interpretations of the Salic Law as regards female inheritance of land and hence of kingdoms: the Carlist Wars in nineteenth century Spain; the War of the Austrian Succession in the mid-eighteenth century, which influenced the French Revolution (Maria Theresa, who cemented her succession of her father Charles VI upon the conclusion of the war, was the mother of the hapless Marie Antoinette); and most famously, the Hundred Years War.

The case put forward by Arvedui in the case of Arnor and Gondor in regards to the deaths of Ondoher and his sons while his daughter survived is similar in many ways to the claims of Edward III through his mother, Isabella wife of Edward II, daughter and only surviving child of Philip IV, against his first cousin once removed, Philip VI of Valois.

The outcome of the real-life situation in the Hundred Years War was very different from that in Tolkien’s story; but is anyone aware of any connection between the two? Does anyone know if Tolkien ever commented or wrote on the Salic Law in his philological studies?

It does not seem that the Elves were concerned about agnatic succession: cf. Idril Celebrindal, seen as the heir of her father Turgon; and Dior Eluchíl, who inherited the throne of Doriath from Thingol through his mother, Lúthien. It is noteworthy that the English followed a similar rule in their regal inheritance: sc. Henry II, who inherited through his mother Matilda; but I believe the Saxon kings (at least in the House of Wessex) did follow some version of agnatic succession, since the crown passed only to male heirs. Wasn’t Ethelfleda the Lady of Mercia daughter of Alfred the Great older than her brother Edward the Elder, who succeeded their father as king? Upon her death, her daughter Ælfwinn (cf. the name Elfwine, son of Éomer – I believe Ælfwinn is a feminine form, making it the feminine form of the Sindarin Elendil, “friend/lover of Elves”) was dispossessed of Mercia, her inheritance from her father Æthelred Lord of Mercia. Tolkien had an abiding interest in Mercia, and considered himself of Mercian ancestry. (See Letter 95 to his son Christopher.)

In addition, Edward the Elder first married a woman whom the English nobility considered of such low birth that her name was not even recorded until after the Conquest: Ecgwynn. (To me, that is redolent of Tolkien’s story of Valacar and his marriage to Vidumavi of Rhovanion: the accession of their son Eldacar was odious to some of the royal house of Gondor.) Under their son, however, the House of Wessex reached its apex: Athelstan the Glorious, who was made King of Mercia when his father divided the kingdom upon his death back into Mercia and Wessex. Athelstan once again reunited England after his half-brother Ælfweard of Wessex died, and became a great king, as his epithet implies: probably the zenith of Anglo-Saxon England.

Does anyone else see bits and pieces of Anglo-Saxon history imported by Tolkien into the stories of the kings of Gondor and Arnor? Any ideas on the Salic Law and the succession of the Lordship of the First and Third Houses of the Edain (in both of which similar agnatic succession was practiced; unlike the Second House, which not only did not practice agnatic succession but took its sobriquet – “The House of Haleth” – from its most famous female leader). What about Silmariën, daughter and eldest child of Tar-Elendil, through whom Elendil the Tall traced his royal descent to Elros Tar-Minyatur; and the subsequent change in the law of succession by Tar-Aldarion in favor of his daughter and only child, Ancalimë? The usurpations of Herucalmo Tar-Anducal and Ar-Pharazôn?

Or is all this too far off-topic?

I believe that because Isildur did not make it to take up high kingship, and it says he forsook Gondor, those descended from him only can't really claim Gondor's throne. Arvedui may not have had legal grounds to become King of Gondor, but Firiel and his son Aranarth certainly did. It is true that the law of female succession observed in Numenor was not observed in Gondor, but the reason it was not observed was because it never had to be. Rejecting Firiel because there hasn't been a need for a female to take the throne yet is basically ridiculous. Also, ignoring a law that was in place when Numenor was still around and Elendil was High King was pretty ignorant of them.

No one has mentioned this, but Firiel is directly descended from Anarion, making Aranarth a direct descendant of both Isildur and Anarion, which would re-unite the kingdoms. What makes Aragorn different from Arvedui is that Aragorn is descended from Aranarth, who, as mentioned, is of both lines, so if you really want to get technical, Aragorn *is* Anarion's & Isildur's heir and therefore rightfully ruler of both Gondor and Arnor, the High King. He may have been more acceptable to the people because of circumstances, but he was not just thrown up on the throne because they had no one better.